When turning the outside ski, do you pull the forefoot in or push the heel out or both?

[speedster]

Wondering what the "correct" technique is, and what most people do. Once you shift all your weight on to the new outside ski at the start of the turn (after extension), how do you turn the ski? Do you pull the forefoot in (downhill) or do you push the heel out (uphill) or do you do both in sort of a rotating motion around the ankle?

 

[Josh Matta]

first whats a foreffoot and second downhill and uphill are kind of meaningless, use outside and inside...then this post will become a ton easier to understand.

 

[speedster]

Forefoot is the fore or front part of the foot, where the balls of the feet are. Downhill and uphill are the directions the forefoot and the heel will go in respectively. That is, if you turned the forefoot in, the forefoot will go more downhill at the start of the turn, and if you pushed the heel out, it will go more uphill at the start of the turn.

 

[CalG]

You need to learn the jargon of the trade.

Read through these forums... You can't just make up new terms

 

[speedster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forefoot

 

[CalG]

Every activity has it's own set of descriptive terms.

The internet does not care about skiing.

 

[François Pugh]

Most of the time, I pull the new outside ski back (or pull myself forward on it -it's a relative thing) and tip it; the ski turns itself when I do that.

Other times, different turn (short radius non-carved) I just weight it evenly, only tip it slightly and pull the inside ski back without pulling the new outside ski back.

 

[speedster]

Most of the time, I pull the new outside ski back (or pull myself forward on it -it's a relative thing) and tip it; the ski turns itself when I do that.

Other times, different turn (short radius non-carved) I just weight it evenly, only tip it slightly and pull the inside ski back without pulling the new outside ski back.

That is very interesting! I realize now that I do pull myself forward on it also - almost as though I'm falling down the mountain and across the skis.

So even in the second scenario (non-carved turn), you still do not turn the new outside ski rotationally along the axis of the leg!

 

[François Pugh]

That is very interesting! I realize now that I do pull myself forward on it also - almost as though I'm falling down the mountain and across the skis.

So even in the second scenario (non-carved turn), you still do not turn the new outside ski rotationally along the axis of the leg!

I turn it a little, but not consciously; pulling the new inside ski back introduces a torque which makes its way to the ski. That torque and the weight shift to a point behind the skis mid-point makes the ski turn as it receives the load.
Later, as the turn progresses, fore-aft balance and edging control the turn.

 

[speedster]

I turn it a little, but not consciously; pulling the new inside ski back introduces a torque which makes its way to the ski. That torque and the weight shift to a point behind the skis mid-point makes the ski turn as it receives the load.
Later, as the turn progresses, fore-aft balance and edging control the turn.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks!

 

[KingGrump]

almost as though I'm falling down the mountain and across the skis.

Sounds about right. At least some of the time.

https://www.pugski.com/threads/the-infinity-move.277/

Rather than starting on the details. Look first at the big picture.

 

[Coach13]

I’m not sure I’ve given pulling the new inside foot back as I transition much thought but thinking about it, I’m sure I instinctively do to catch myself as my upper body crosses over and moves downhill.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Try sideslipping (which releases edges) and pulling the downhill ski back.

 

[Tony S]

Do you pull the forefoot in ... or do you push the heel out ... or do you do both in sort of a rotating motion around the ankle

If you are talking about rotating foot and ski parallel with the snow, around an axis roughly represented by the tibia, the answer is "neither." Or at least not so you'd want to envision things that way. Better to think of allowing or encouraging the ski to turn the way it was designed to, rather than thinking of turning the ski by force. Thus you are tipping more than twisting. Apologies if I misunderstood the question.

 

[speedster]

If you are talking about rotating foot and ski parallel with the snow, around an axis roughly represented by the tibia, the answer is "neither." Or at least not so you'd want to envision things that way. Better to think of allowing or encouraging the ski to turn the way it was designed to, rather than thinking of turning the ski by force. Thus you are tipping more than twisting. Apologies if I misunderstood the question.

No, you've got it bang on mate. With the opening question, I was just trying to figure out what I was actually doing. With the leaning over and across the ski, I'm automatically tipping it, but I'm also twisting the foot a bit. Now I'm going to consciously try to avoid doing that, and just focus on the tipping.

Speaking of which, do you evert the foot to tip (sorry if that's another term that's purely medical and not in the ski lingo) or just let the body angle (or the whole leg from waist down) do the tipping?

 

[geepers]

Not sure if this helps.


Projected Productions also have a good vid on this "Early Edge" in their "How To Ski" series on vimeo - do have to pay to see however it has more details, more drills.

My own challenge is to continue to increase inclination earlier in the turn, not just park'n'ride.

 

[Josh Matta]

No, you've got it bang on mate. With the opening question, I was just trying to figure out what I was actually doing. With the leaning over and across the ski, I'm automatically tipping it, but I'm also twisting the foot a bit. Now I'm going to consciously try to avoid doing that, and just focus on the tipping.

Speaking of which, do you evert the foot to tip (sorry if that's another term that's purely medical and not in the ski lingo) or just let the body angle (or the whole leg from waist down) do the tipping?

depends on the turns and conditions.

Generally slower speeds you are going first use foot tipping, followed by the leg from the femur below and try to keep the pelvis from banking into the turn. IE foot starts the tipping , whole legs follow, pelvis stays level. Slower speed applies to most peoples free skiing.

Higher speeds IE GS and larger turn radius being done carved, the above can work, but some(not all) WC skiers like to use a fair bit of upper body inclination to start the turn, even if they end up with more angulation and the femur to pelvis joint near the end of the turn. The vast majority of people never feel even 60 percent of what a WC skier does in GS., if you one of those people learning how to do those GS turns both with foot tipping, and whole body inclination can have merit. I personally find on my Big mountain skis, and real deal GS seem to like some upper body tilting along with the leg tilting in the the start of the turn.

 

[speedster]

depends on the turns and conditions.

Generally slower speeds you are going first use foot tipping, followed by the leg from the femur below and try to keep the pelvis from banking into the turn. IE foot starts the tipping , whole legs follow, pelvis stays level. Slower speed applies to most peoples free skiing.

Higher speeds IE GS and larger turn radius being done carved, the above can work, but some(not all) WC skiers like to use a fair bit of upper body inclination to start the turn, even if they end up with more angulation and the femur to pelvis joint near the end of the turn. The vast majority of people never feel even 60 percent of what a WC skier does in GS., if you one of those people learning how to do those GS turns both with foot tipping, and whole body inclination can have merit. I personally find on my Big mountain skis, and real deal GS seem to like some upper body tilting along with the leg tilting in the the start of the turn.

Fantastic, thank you!

Is there a reason why that difference exists? I mean, is there a disadvantage to just using the upper body to tip at the start of the turn at lower speeds? I'm not really sure what I do, but I do know that I move my upper body downhill and across the skis with each turn and do not think I consciously tilt the foot or the leg. According to ski tracker, my fastest speeds are 40 mph and average is 20 mph so nowhere near GS speeds.

 

[François Pugh]

There are some disadvantages to inclination without angulation (tipping without having the upper body closer to vertical than the legs). Mostly though:
1. If done wrong, you have too much weight on the inside ski.
2. If done with all your weight on the outside ski, there is no room for error or recovery; if the outside ski slips out, it's all over. With some angulation you can recover.

 

[speedster]

There are some disadvantages to inclination without angulation (tipping without having the upper body closer to vertical than the legs). Mostly though:
1. If done wrong, you have too much weight on the inside ski.
2. If done with all your weight on the outside ski, there is no room for error or recovery; if the outside ski slips out, it's all over. With some angulation you can recover.

Thank you again. This has been a hugely helpful thread. All my weight is definitely on the outside ski since to this day I periodically lift the inside ski off the snow to check from time to time. I'm going to pay more attention to exactly what parts of the body I'm moving.