When turning the outside ski, do you pull the forefoot in or push the heel out or both?

[Mike King]

I really do not like the analogy of pulling the inside foot back -- it implies that it was forward at some point, and needs to be moved. Rather, it is, in my opinion, important to talk about alignment: the so called "wall" that has been promoted by the US Ski Team (and perhaps the Austrians previously). What we should be trying to achieve is equal (or parallel) angles in all of the following: ski tips, knees, hips, shoulders, etc. What often happens is that there is excess tip lead in the inside ski/foot. Pulling that foot back might restore alignment, but how much? And if it is out of alignment at some point, where is it happening and why?

To find the "right" amount of tip lead, think instead about trying to obtain and maintain the same amount of flexion in the ankles. That is, both ankles should have the same amount of dorsi/plantar flexion. That should get you closer to being in proper alignment.

Mike

 

[François Pugh]

I really do not like the analogy of pulling the inside foot back -- it implies that it was forward at some point, and needs to be moved. Rather, it is, in my opinion, important to talk about alignment: the so called "wall" that has been promoted by the US Ski Team (and perhaps the Austrians previously). What we should be trying to achieve is equal (or parallel) angles in all of the following: ski tips, knees, hips, shoulders, etc. What often happens is that there is excess tip lead in the inside ski/foot. Pulling that foot back might restore alignment, but how much? And if it is out of alignment at some point, where is it happening and why?

To find the "right" amount of tip lead, think instead about trying to obtain and maintain the same amount of flexion in the ankles. That is, both ankles should have the same amount of dorsi/plantar flexion. That should get you closer to being in proper alignment.

Mike

That point is transition between arc-2-arc high speed gs turns. In fact both skis are forward and need to be reeled in. In transition there is no turn force and relatively little load on the skis, so it's ok to be in the "back seat" due to the boots not being flexed, but you need to be forward at initiation, immediately after transition.

 

[Mike King]

@François Pugh, my post said nothing about the relation of the center of mass to the base for support, but was about the foot to foot alignment relative to the rest of the body. In fact, it is possible for the CoM to be aft, centered, or forward of the base of support while exhibiting excess tip lead. So the issue my post was addressing is rotational alignment.

Further, the DIRT of the forward relationship of the CoM with the BoS is more nuanced than "at initiation." Initiation is a phase of the turn, describing the first third of the turn from edge change to the beginning of the shaping or control phase of the turn. By the start of shaping, you ideally will be forward, but getting there is a process. It does not necessarily require projecting the CoM along the length of the ski. In fact, the process of tipping the skis, establishing early edge, bending the outside ski, and allowing them to travel on their arc will generally result in the CoM moving forward relative to the BoS.

Too many people, and many instructors, hear move forward on the ski with the result that there are many errors in movement patterns. Sometimes the result is to move the chest forward and the hips aft, with no change in the relationship of the CoM to the BoS. Sometimes there is a continuous projection of the CoM against the front of the boot, resulting in too much forward leverage and a displacement of the path of the tails of the skis relative to the tips. The amount of movement of the CoM relative to the BoS for recreational skiing, including ripping arc to arc GS turns, is pretty small.

Here it might be useful to review @Bob Barnes's infinity move video:

 

[François Pugh]

Agreed. I did not realize your were speaking of just forward with respect to the other foot. The centre of mass does take a short cut to get forward.

 

[JESinstr]

If you believe that "Edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter" It doesn't take long to realize that how much you can shorten your inside leg is highly dependent on how well you can vertically align as @Mike King stated above. I used to focus on pulling my inside foot back but now the focus is on achieving the needed vertical alignment to maximize the flex of the inside leg. And OBTW my inside foot ends up underneath!

 

[speedster]

There are some disadvantages to inclination without angulation (tipping without having the upper body closer to vertical than the legs). Mostly though:
1. If done wrong, you have too much weight on the inside ski.
2. If done with all your weight on the outside ski, there is no room for error or recovery; if the outside ski slips out, it's all over. With some angulation you can recover.

So I learned this afternoon that I only do inclination (whole body tilting) with no angulation (no foot or leg tipping), and my weight is 100% on the outside ski. Can you elaborate on what you mean by the outside ski slipping out? Is that something that happens at higher speeds that what I ski at (avg 20mph, max 40 mph)?

 

[Josh Matta]

have video? please not vertical cell phone video either...

 

[speedster]

have video? please not vertical cell phone video either...

Nope. A theoretical answer would suffice.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Speedster, First off, the first two replies to your post were a bit harsh IMHO. I'm pretty sure most of us knew what you were talking about when you mention the forefoot vs. heel and uphill / downhill. Ski jargon is just that. Of course there is a part of your foot more fore and a part closer to the heel. Of course there is an uphill and downhill as well. Race coaches are now using the terms "new ski and old ski" versus up/down or inside/outside because replacing jargon with jargon doesn't really work well when teaching. Also, you didn't ask about foot pull back, you asked about your foot turning in a rotary fashion. For me personally, my greatest moments skiing have been when it felt like I steered throughout the entire run. Edging, pressure and anything anatomical became natural and wasn't even thought about. It felt like I was doing this

Is steering rotary, edging, or pressure? Most will say rotary, however, after having a few amazing runs like this in my life I'll tell you it was anatomical. I tried to do it today skiing and couldn't - its fleeting. But when it did happen the best word I can use to describe the sensation was BALANCED. I do know that I had the tension to withstand the forces like roller coaster guy, but also felt very relaxed ( aka Tight / Loose - which is a movie from Teton Gravity Research). I recall some gentlemen on the chair ask me what I did to ski like that and he mentioned that he tries to turn his forefoot downhill, as if he was searching for steering. Although I couldn't explain what I did exactly to have such a good run, I do remember mentioning that I steered my skis and asked him, " If your forefoot goes downhill, which way would your heel go " steering?" His answer, "Uphill". Then I said, "It may seem like the heel is going uphill, because it is more uphill than the forefoot, but it is probably more into the hill than going up."

These were the best turns of my life, but only three or four days total when it ALL came together. I'm chasing that everyday now, but when I start doing long / leg short leg, rotary, edging and all the other minutia that gets in my head, all of a sudden, I'm not balancing on a moving platform - I'm trying to do something. When doing those "good turns" any edging, pressure or flex/extending, rotary and counter balance was purely a function of going where the roller coaster took me. It did start from the ground up though - I felt glued to the snow on the bottoms of my feet and all the joints just did what they needed to do to ride the rails.

Back to my thoughts on Tight / Loose. The "tight" felt like I was like hanging in a pelvic harness and everything else was loose and natural.

Go jump on the city bus and stand like you are skiing it - no holding on. You may find that when the bus rocks side to side that you will pressure each foot accordingly, you'll find your body will counter naturally when the bus turns and all the other cool sensations that can't be created, but just occur anatomically.

I hope that helps.

 

[speedster]

Speedster, First off, the first two replies to your post were a bit harsh IMHO. I'm pretty sure most of us knew what you were talking about when you mention the forefoot vs. heel and uphill / downhill. Ski jargon is just that. Of course there is a part of your foot more fore and a part closer to the heel. Of course there is an uphill and downhill as well. Race coaches are now using the terms "new ski and old ski" versus up/down or inside/outside because replacing jargon with jargon doesn't really work well when teaching. Also, you didn't ask about foot pull back, you asked about your foot turning in a rotary fashion. For me personally, my greatest moments skiing have been when it felt like I steered throughout the entire run. Edging, pressure and anything anatomical became natural and wasn't even thought about. It felt like I was doing this

Is steering rotary, edging, or pressure? Most will say rotary, however, after having a few amazing runs like this in my life I'll tell you it was anatomical. I tried to do it today skiing and couldn't - its fleeting. But when it did happen the best word I can use to describe the sensation was BALANCED. I do know that I had the tension to withstand the forces like roller coaster guy, but also felt very relaxed ( aka Tight / Loose - which is a movie from Teton Gravity Research). I recall some gentlemen on the chair ask me what I did to "steer like that" and he mentioned that he tries to turn his forefoot downhill. Although I couldn't explan what I did exactly to have such a good run, I do remember asking him, " If your forefoot goes downhill, which way would your heel go " steering?" His answer, "Uphill". Then I said, "It may seem like the heel is going uphill, because it is more uphill than the forefoot, but it is probably more into the hill than going up."

These were the best turns of my life, but only three or four days total when it ALL came together. I'm chasing that everyday then, but then I start doing long / leg short leg, rotary, edging and all the other minutia that gets in my head and all of a sudden, I'm not balancing on a moving platform - I'm trying to do something. When doing those "good turns" any edging, pressure or flex/extending, rotary and counter balance was purely a function of going where the roller coaster took me.

Back to my thoughts on Tight / Loose. The "tight" felt like I was like hanging in a pelvic harness and everything else was loose and natural.

I hope that helps.

That's actually helpful. Perhaps I shouldn't try to focus on the little things I'm doing (and figure out whether they're right or wrong), and should "just ski" and have fun. I'm not going for competitions anyway.

 

[Tip Nippley]

I made a few minor edits to the post above to try to clarify my thoughts. FYI

 

[Tip Nippley]

That's actually helpful. Perhaps I shouldn't try to focus on the little things I'm doing (and figure out whether they're right or wrong), and should "just ski" and have fun. I'm not going for competitions anyway.

I wan't competing with anyone either. But, once you have a run like this you'll do just about anything to do it again. Pure magic - God given.

 

[speedster]

Go jump on the city bus and stand like you are skiing it - no holding on. You may find that when the bus rocks side to side that you will pressure each foot accordingly, you'll find your body will counter naturally when the bus turns and all the other cool sensations that can't be created, but just occur anatomically.

Good analogy. The only ski instruction I've ever received is Lito Flores' videos and book, and this is pretty much the only thing I'm consciously doing on the slopes - balancing. Although on one ski at a time.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Opps, I forgot to mention that it happened from the ground up. My feet were "stuck to the rails" and my ankle and other joints did what they had to do so I remained on the rails. My skis felt much flatter against the snow.

 

[Tip Nippley]

Good analogy. The only ski instruction I've ever received is Lito Flores' videos and book, and this is pretty much the only thing I'm consciously doing on the slopes - balancing. Although on one ski at a time.

That may have been the case for me also, but it didn't feel like I was skiing foot to foot. It felt more like the forces determined that naturally without a drastic or noticeable "transfer" that I TRIED to do.

Sorry, this is not easy to explain. I couldn't even understand my own notes that I took afterwards the next day. I mean, I understood them, but they didn't guide me back to finding that same balance when I skied again anymore than thinking about other mechanical issues.

 

[Mike King]

@speedster, skiing is a blend of skills, and when you have not only mastery of the skills, but their blend, that is when you get maximum ski performance. The blend, as well and the duration, intensity, rate, and timing of each skill, differs based on the application: are you making GS turns on a consistently pitched hard snow course, basic parallel turns on a beginner slope, medium radius turns in steep bumps, hop turns in a steep couloir, deep powder in trees, short radius turns in crud, etc.? So, back to your original question, what is happening to the forefoot versus the heel depends on the task, terrain, and intent.

I'm not sure what motivates your question. If you think there is a "magic" move in skiing, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the biomechanics and physics of skiing aren't so simple that there is a single movement that will elevate your skiing. Rather, aligning your anatomy with the forces created by the snow/ski interaction to achieve the ski performance you desire is complex. PSIA has 5 fundamentals of skiing:

1. Control the relationship between the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis
2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
4. Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body
5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction.
   

There are many ways to achieve these fundamentals, but there are some that are more efficient than others. The DIRT (duration, intensity, rate, and timing) of the movement patterns that are used to achieve the fundamentals matter, and their blend is the art of skiing.

It's really not possible to answer your original question without more information. In reality, the answer is likely to be far more complex than you probably suspect. That's why @Josh Matta asked for video -- that'd give us a better chance of getting to the bottom of your question.

Mike

 

[Tip Nippley]

Mike, I noticed you mentioned the word I used previously to describe my best turns - Anatomical. I agree about what you said concerning the five fundamentals, but sometimes, as you said, they may not lead to mastery. There is no magic move, except maybe not making moves. Moving. Anatomical vs. mechanical. I think that was really the point I was trying to make and it seems you picked up on it as well with the earlier statement of trying to help one get aligned through equal flexion in both ankles, which I like.

 

[SkierGolferNH]

You have a fundamental problem in your OP, you say "Once you shift all your weight on to the new outside ski at the start of the turn".

Many would argue, that for the most part, that the shift of the weight to the outside ski IS THE RESULT of the tipping of the ski. You should think about letting that transfer of weight just happen rather than doing it actively. (Of course, this is not an absolute, tactically, there are times when you do actively shift your weight.)

 

[Josh Matta]

it really isnt...

You can shift all the weight to your left foot and not go right.... or you could tip your skis left and never have your weight go to the outside right ski. Its all a matter of speed, COM placement, and inclination and angulation.

 

[speedster]

@speedster, skiing is a blend of skills, and when you have not only mastery of the skills, but their blend, that is when you get maximum ski performance. The blend, as well and the duration, intensity, rate, and timing of each skill, differs based on the application: are you making GS turns on a consistently pitched hard snow course, basic parallel turns on a beginner slope, medium radius turns in steep bumps, hop turns in a steep couloir, deep powder in trees, short radius turns in crud, etc.? So, back to your original question, what is happening to the forefoot versus the heel depends on the task, terrain, and intent.

I'm not sure what motivates your question. If you think there is a "magic" move in skiing, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the biomechanics and physics of skiing aren't so simple that there is a single movement that will elevate your skiing. Rather, aligning your anatomy with the forces created by the snow/ski interaction to achieve the ski performance you desire is complex. PSIA has 5 fundamentals of skiing:

1. Control the relationship between the Center of Mass to the base of support to direct pressure along the length of the skis
2. Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski
3. Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation
4. Control the skis rotation (turning, pivoting, steering) with leg rotation, separate from the upper body
5. Regulate the magnitude of pressure created through ski/snow interaction.

There are many ways to achieve these fundamentals, but there are some that are more efficient than others. The DIRT (duration, intensity, rate, and timing) of the movement patterns that are used to achieve the fundamentals matter, and their blend is the art of skiing.

It's really not possible to answer your original question without more information. In reality, the answer is likely to be far more complex than you probably suspect. That's why @Josh Matta asked for video -- that'd give us a better chance of getting to the bottom of your question.

Mike

Thanks for the post. But, I was just asking for an elaboration on the bolded point below, which was theoretical in the first place (not dependent on a video of my skiing):

There are some disadvantages to inclination without angulation (tipping without having the upper body closer to vertical than the legs). Mostly though:
1. If done wrong, you have too much weight on the inside ski.
2. If done with all your weight on the outside ski, there is no room for error or recovery; if the outside ski slips out, it's all over. With some angulation you can recover.