Wedge Christie feedback

[Skisailor]

At beginning of turn, which ski is going to point down the fall line first? Why? At the end of the turn, which ski is catching up, in the turn, to the other ski in order for the skis to become parallel? "Catching up" - what does one need to do to "catch up"?

Fall line first? Well that depends on the intention of the skier. It's not really important which one points down the fall line first. It's just important that the relative amount of rotation is different - outside ski is rotating faster than inside ski.

Catching up? Just the opposite. You are briefly in a wedge. For the skis to match again, the inside ski must be rotated more quickly than the outside ski.

Where all of this happens relative to the fall line can be varied by the skier. As I have mentioned upthread - we practiced WCs where the match happened above the fall line, in the fall line, and after the fall line. With Ursula I also did drills following close behind her and she would randomly use a wedge entry or a stem entry and I had to spot which was which and call it out. Very helpful to have a visual in your mind's eye.

 

[karlo]

One needs to turn the inside leg more and faster.

Fall line first?

Thanks. I was just answering Tim socratically. I just edited to make that more clear.

 

[karlo]

One needs to turn the inside leg more and faster

That's the part of the turn when skis are matching, right?

we practiced WCs where the match happened above the fall line, in the fall line, and after the

Oh yeah, matching can happen anywhere. Here's another WC. Matching is earlier.


But I noticed, though advanced, still little separation.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

That's the part of the turn when skis are matching, right?



Oh yeah, matching can happen anywhere. Here's another WC. Matching is earlier.


But I noticed, though advanced, still little separation.

Karlo, did you notice legs turning under stable pelvis? Legs turn first as opposed to whole body or upper body. Huge distinction.

 

[Skisailor]

1. That's the part of the turn when skis are matching, right?

Oh yeah, matching can happen anywhere. Here's another WC. Matching is earlier.


But I noticed, though advanced, still little separation.

I think lack (or let's just say too little) separation is a common theme in these turns. 3 thoughts:

1) WCs are supposed to still be "good skiing" - not rigid robot skiing. And the degree of separation in good skiing is in part controlled by turn radius. So the smaller the turn radius, the more separation we need. Medium to larger radius - degree of separation decreases.

2) These are called "demos" for a reason. When getting used to demoing in front of students, I use the rule that they only see 10% of what I'm doing. And then if they do 20% of THAT you've succeeded. So don't make it a "magic turn". Exaggerate everything a little bit. If we have to debate whether enough separation is visible, it wasn't enough.

3) MOST IMPORTANT - be ready to do whatever your examiner does! Even if you don't agree that it was a "good" WC. The biggest trap here is that sometimes what an examiner says and then what they show are two different things. So don't be afraid to ask questions (within reason) if you aren't clear on the objective.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

If your goal is to get a passing score on an exam, it is important to focus on the primary skills for a particular task.

You likely will not fail WC if there is too little separation but you will fail if you initiate the turn with the upper body or push the outside leg out.

 

[Steve]

Regarding Examiner demos. I was at a Level 2 skiing exam years ago where there were both Examiners and ETS's (Examiner in Training Squad) at each module. For Open Parallel, first off all three Examiners had a different description, some wanted skidding, some didn't. Secondly the ETS demos didn't always match the Examiner description.

At the end of the day the Examiners know what they're looking for and in my opinion if the candidate shows good basic movements they will in most cases pass, as long as what they do isn't too different from the description. These tasks are designed to expose flaws in our skiing. It's much easier to see these flaws with slow skiing, and tasks.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Regarding Examiner demos. I was at a Level 2 skiing exam years ago where there were both Examiners and ETS's (Examiner in Training Squad) at each module. For Open Parallel, first off all three Examiners had a different description, some wanted skidding, some didn't. Secondly the ETS demos didn't always match the Examiner description.

At the end of the day the Examiners know what they're looking for and in my opinion if the candidate shows good basic movements they will in most cases pass, as long as what they do isn't too different from the description. These tasks are designed to expose flaws in our skiing. It's much easier to see these flaws with slow skiing, and tasks.

I agree. If you have good basic movement patterns, you will likely be able to be versatile and adjust to what the examiner wants to see.

 

[Uke]

The argument made for the difference in rotation speed in the WC was that at the first of the turn there is less pressure on the new outside ski so it will naturally rotate a little faster than the still pressured inside ski. Once most of the pressure is transferred to the outside ski the inside ski will rotate faster and match the outside ski. The theory was that the wedge happened spontaneously without any effort to make a wedge on the part of the skier. In many cases this will result in a very slight wedge.

This is the turn you see the skier in the PSIA demo skiing.

uke

 

[Kneale Brownson]

The argument made for the difference in rotation speed in the WC was that at the first of the turn there is less pressure on the new outside ski so it will naturally rotate a little faster than the still pressured inside ski. Once most of the pressure is transferred to the outside ski the inside ski will rotate faster and match the outside ski. The theory was that the wedge happened spontaneously without any effort to make a wedge on the part of the skier. In many cases this will result in a very slight wedge.

This is the turn you see the skier in the PSIA demo skiing.

uke

Where most candidates get in trouble with this task is either forcing the wedge by pushing out the tail of the new outside ski or transferring weight too quickly to the new outside ski.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Uke and Mr. Brownson: So this Wedge Christie demo is meant to be passive?

Rather, than an active movement pattern, a passive turn accomplished by ski/snow interface which is effectuated by pressure and rotation only, with any edging merely a result (as Nancy said earlier)?

So when I see the instructor demoing in the less advanced WC, she is purposefully inclining uphill and putting more weight on her inside ski to keep weight off of the outside ski so that the outside ski can rotate quicker?

And only when the outside ski has completed its rotation, does the weight shift to it to enable the de-weighted uphil/inside ski to catch up or quickly rotate into parallel?


To those who consider this discussion "spoon feeding"

I respectfully disagree.

I call it "instruction."

As in Professional Ski Instructors of America.

Any thing less is not "instruction" but just bits and pieces. Commonly referred to as "hiding the ball."


Is this then a foot oriented, "ski up" drill?

 

[karlo]

The argument made for the difference in rotation speed in the WC was that at the first of the turn there is less pressure on the new outside ski so it will naturally rotate a little faster than the still pressured inside ski

This statement has thrown me. I thought, in a WC, there's more pressure on the new outside ski, and that's why it's turning faster. But, that conception is based on carving the turn, on edge, as the inside ski is flat and cannot turn as quickly. But, now that I get that this is a leg-rotary turn, yes, I can see that there is more pressure on the inside ski, to allow the outside ski to more freely rotate. But, isn't more pressure on the new inside ski "bad" skiing?

Where most candidates get in trouble with this task is either forcing the wedge by pushing out the tail of the new outside ski or transferring weight too quickly to the new outside ski

What is considered too quickly? Where in the turn is that threshold?

 

[JESinstr]

Where most candidates get in trouble with this task is either forcing the wedge by pushing out the tail of the new outside ski or transferring weight too quickly to the new outside ski.

You are absolutely correct Kneale.

Please allow me to come at your true and direct statement from another direction.

Line up 10 beginners standing still and ask them to rotate their right ski and most of them will lean over said ski and push their tails.
Yet, I hear instructor after instructor tell students to "Squash the bug". Hmm, when I want to squash a bug I lean over the death dealing ball of my foot and push my heels.

Teaching PROPER rotation is indeed a conundrum because it is a subtle move and the word "subtle" does not exist in a beginner's vocab.
We always want to guide the ski, and resist the natural urge to push it. Again, subtlety.

IMO rotation is a "Brushing" move involving the whole foot, through the arch, powered by the upper leg. But low proprioception of the upper leg rotating is not easy for many especially for beginners. In terms of separation, it is strictly between the ball of the femur and the pelvic hip socket.

So my point is, maybe if we really focus on teaching PROPER rotary early on instead of settling for redirection through substandard methods, the WC would be no big deal.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Uke and Mr. Brownson: So this Wedge Christie demo is meant to be passive?

Rather, than an active movement pattern, a passive turn accomplished by ski/snow interface which is effectuated by pressure and rotation only, with any edging merely a result (as Nancy said earlier)?

So when I see the instructor demoing in the less advanced WC, she is purposefully inclining uphill and putting more weight on her inside ski to keep weight off of the outside ski so that the outside ski can rotate quicker?

And only when the outside ski has completed its rotation, does the weight shift to it to enable the de-weighted uphil/inside ski to catch up or quickly rotate into parallel?


To those who consider this discussion "spoon feeding"

I respectfully disagree.

I call it "instruction."

As in Professional Ski Instructors of America.

Any thing less is not "instruction" but just bits and pieces. Commonly referred to as "hiding the ball."


Is this then a foot oriented, "ski up" drill?

Tim, the WC uses active rotary. The weight transfer is passive. I do not understand your notions of active/passive.

I do not believe the instructor in the vid is purposefully putting more weight on the inside ski. As you go through the turn the weight will get pulled to the outside naturally but you can use adductor/abductor muscles to turn your legs at the speed you want.

This discussion is not spoon feeding. This is a good discussion. Spoon feeding is when people ask for others to provide information that is already available in other formats which are easily located by a google search.

 

[LiquidFeet]

An instructor doing an orthodox, passable, wedge christie (in a PSIA certification exam) may start that turn in at least two different ways. These two ways will produce different results, some of them easily visible to the examiner. Both of these initiation strategies are commonly used in basic parallel turns as well as in dynamic turns.

1. That instructor can start the turn from a parallel traverse by extending the new outside leg and doing nothing, or less, with the new inside leg. This will make the skier taller. It will bring immediate pressure to the new outside ski. If that instructor also does not extend the new inside leg at the same time or at the same rate, the body will move to the inside, flattening the new inside ski to release it. The turn will start, the outside ski will turn to point downhill. The instructor may normally make parallel turns this way. But it is imperative that the skier not allow the new inside ski to turn as fast as the outside ski is turning in order to allow the required wedge to develop. --- The instructor has two options in creating the wedge at this point. Muscular action can rotate the femurs at different rates, as some have mentioned, to cause the wedge. Or the instructor can delay the turning of the new inside ski and allow the outside ski to turn first. Whichever of these options the instructor chooses to do, there will be early pressure on the outside ski because of that extension.

2. Another way is for the instructor to start the turn by flexing the new inside leg and delaying the extension of the new outside leg a bit. This will shorten the skier. It will bring the skier's upper body over the new inside ski, weight it and flatten it, leaving the new outside ski more edged. That outside ski, with its edge, will start to turn. The skier may normally make parallel turns this way. But, again, it is imperative that the instructor not allow the new inside ski to turn as fast as the outside ski turns to make a parallel turn. --- As above, the instructor has two options for creating the wedge: muscular action can be used to rotate the femurs at different rates to make that wedge develop. Or the instructor can delay the turning of the new inside ski and allow the outside ski to turn on its own. Pressure will move to the outside ski as the turn develops.

These two ways of starting a turn are sometimes called extension turns and flexion turns. Other phrases used are ILE (old Inside Leg Extension) and OLR (old Outside Leg Relaxation) turns, or extend-to-release and flex-to-release. They feel different, they look different (tall in transition vs short in transition), and the pressure comes to the new outside ski at different times.

Repeating what pretty much everyone here has been saying, what should NOT happen at the start of the turn is upper body rotation ahead of the skis, or rotating the new outside ski's tail out.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Nancy I love you! (apologies to my wife Pam...) Because we have finally found agreement. We do not understand each other! (In fact, I often frustrate our Level 3's and Clinicians because I don't understand them either - so I recognize your frustration with me.)

It is my fault. I don't think like others. To me I cannot see something unless I have thought it first. And I do not have a fully formed thought until I have named it.

So for me, to understand the Skill's Concept (i.e., Balance, Rotation, Pressure, Edge) I have named "active/passive" as the following:

When I use my muscles to make the Skill happen, I call that "active."

In contrast ,when I let the ski/snow or terrain interface make the Skill happen, I call that "passive."

Your statement brilliantly illustrates the difference:

"The WC uses active rotary. The weight transfer is passive."

 

[Tim Hodgson]

JESinstr: Please start a thread entitled: "focus on teaching PROPER rotary early on"

I would like to learn. You will help not just me but all my students and other instructors who read your thread.

 

[markojp]

Tim, the WC uses active rotary. The weight transfer is passive. I do not understand your notions of active/passive.

I do not believe the instructor in the vid is purposefully putting more weight on the inside ski. As you go through the turn the weight will get pulled to the outside naturally but you can use adductor/abductor muscles to turn your legs at the speed you want.

This discussion is not spoon feeding. This is a good discussion. Spoon feeding is when people ask for others to provide information that is already available in other formats which are easily located by a google search.

Managing forces rather than creating them.

(Nancy, good stuff your posting here!)

 

[Kneale Brownson]

When you have the opportunity, Tim, go find some moderately blue or challenging green terrain and make a BUNCH of open stance parallel turns where you maintain equal weighting on both skis and feel femurs rotating.

 

[JESinstr]

Nancy I love you! (apologies to my wife Pam...) Because we have finally found agreement. We do not understand each other! (In fact, I often frustrate our Level 3's and Clinicians because I don't understand them either - so I recognize your frustration with me.)

It is my fault. I don't think like others. To me I cannot see something unless I have thought it first. And I do not have a fully formed thought until I have named it.

So for me, to understand the Skill's Concept (i.e., Balance, Rotation, Pressure, Edge) I have named "active/passive" as the following:

When I use my muscles to make the Skill happen, I call that "active."

In contrast ,when I let the ski/snow or terrain interface make the Skill happen, I call that "passive."

Your statement brilliantly illustrates the difference:

"The WC uses active rotary. The weight transfer is passive."

Tim, I am glad you are getting to the bottom of things.

Now, tell me about passive weight transfer. What does that entail in your view? I don't see weight transfer in the skills diagram. This is not a trick question

It goes to the concept of mixing all 4 skills to allow for the progressive build up of outside ski pressure coming at you vs you intentionally moving to put your weight on the ski.