Wax and scraping questions

[nyskiguy]

Hi all, just joined ski talk today. I'm just learning to tune and wax my skis. I started by working on edges of my 21 yo K2 axis xp's. I still use them for skiing on ice/groomed east coast slopes. When I get the hang of it, I'll go for it on my 2022 Armadas. A couple waxing questions:

-When I do the crayon wax technique, by heating the wax, then rubbing, I find that the iron in the middle didn't get melted by my iron. Is this because the ski has become concave over time? It didn't look that way with a tru bar, but maybe I'm not good at spotting that yet.

-Same problem when I scraped- the wax towards the middle didn't get melted when I used the wide side of the scraper, which goes across the width of the ski. I had to use the short edge. Do I risk damaging the base if this way, since the corner might did into the base?

-I found it hard to cover the ski with melted wax unless I moved the iron back and forth, up and down. Is this ok, or does the iron have to go only tip to tail? I also had to run the short edge of the iron across the length of the ski, since doing it the wide way, the wax didn't melt.

Thanks for your help, excited and scared to get into this and other tuning rabbit holes!

 

[raytseng]

When I do the crayon wax technique, by heating the wax, then rubbing, I find that the iron in the middle didn't get melted by my iron. Is this because the ski has become concave over time? It didn't look that way with a tru bar, but maybe I'm not good at spotting that yet.

Yes, your ski has likely gone a little concave/edge high. You don't necessarily need a truebar, if you just stick a ruler or your clean (new) scraper on it, you probably can see it. The iron and scraper are also telling you it's concave.
You will need a base grind at a tuning shop to flatten it. If you have a flat base, not only will this give you better performance skiing, this will make your future waxing easier.

-I found it hard to cover the ski with melted wax unless I moved the iron back and forth, up and down. Is this ok, or does the iron have to go only tip to tail? I also had to run the short edge of the iron across the length of the ski, since doing it the wide way, the wax didn't melt.

A couple thoughts.
One, it's not so important you fully melt the wax in the cavity, because it really isn't touching the snow that much, it really isn't getting much action until you get that fixed. My economy swix ski iron has rounded corners, so I sometimes use the iron corner to melt in wax in tight spots like near tip guards, rather than move it sideways.

Two, the main problem with the sideways iron direction is a little complicated-I think of it in two parts. By itself, it has no difference in how you get the wax melted and smoothly spread.
But if you haven't touched up your edges, especially on a edge-high concave ski, if you don't go tip-to-tail you risk putting odd scratches into the iron base from the edges or other debris. Then on future passes if you continue to use the marred iron or picked up debris, the sideways movement has the potential to then scratch or gouge your ski base sideways. Scratching your base tip-to-tail is just base structure and has no effect on performance. But sideways scratches decrease performance and opposite of why you are tuning in the first place.
If your iron isn't flat or has been marred; you can look up how to use drywall sanding screen and sandpaper to flatten and lapp your iron; there are some posts.

Short edge is fine, you can go zamboni style, and go in a big oval, concentrating on melting the wax along 1 edge down, and the other edge up. If your iron isn't holding heat well, and cycling between too hot but then cools off too fast to melt, then you might need a new better iron

You can also look up the fiberlene method for final iron passes to put down an even final thin coat, and minimize or not needing scraping. But again you may need a better iron if your current one isn't keeping temp bare even without paper.

 

[nyskiguy]

Thanks, Ray! I looked up the fiberlene thing, seems worth a try. And yes, I saw superficial scratches on my iron after only it's first use, so I gotta be careful with the edges. How about using the scraper on the short edge - any potential to damage the base with the corner?

 

[slidingmike]

How about using the scraper on the short edge - any potential to damage the base with the corner?

It's not ideal; I suspect there's a good chance that you could gouge the bases that way. Is your scraper slightly flexible, enough to pressure the center so that it reaches the bases as you scrape? Mine all are; I use this to target certain thicker wax spots on my (admittedly flatter) bases.

 

[Zirbl]

moved the iron back and forth, up and down. Is this ok, or does the iron have to go only tip to tail?

This and other stuff is answered here. I found it pretty useful at least. Professionals like @Primoz might have other ideas.

 

[SlideWright]

It's not ideal; I suspect there's a good chance that you could gouge the bases that way. Is your scraper slightly flexible, enough to pressure the center so that it reaches the bases as you scrape? Mine all are; I use this to target certain thicker wax spots on my (admittedly flatter) bases.

I was also thinking he could use a thinner scraper like a 3mm that will bend more to form an arc for getting into the concave base.

 

[Sibhusky]

I use the short edge all the time. Never had an issue. Of course it's just plastic, not a metal one. You're just trying to scrape off wax, not dig a trench.

 

[snwbrdr]

I was also thinking he could use a thinner scraper like a 3mm that will bend more to form an arc for getting into the concave base.

You can't bend a scraper that way to bend to conform to the arc of a concave base. You're fighting against the height of the scraper (too much material to bend against in that direction)

 

[raytseng]

Thanks, Ray! I looked up the fiberlene thing, seems worth a try. And yes, I saw superficial scratches on my iron after only it's first use, so I gotta be careful with the edges. How about using the scraper on the short edge - any potential to damage the base with the corner?

Assuming you are working with nothing harder than an average medium wax, here is a safer, alternative technique I like to use:
What I do for detail scraping is use an old credit card/hotel cardkey/old seasonpass rather than use an actual scraper. Similar to idea mentioned above by slidewright you can also bend the card slightly to conform to the surface at the angle you want to get the excessive wax off.
Obviously the angle I use with cards is chisel vs the butter-the-toast angle you might use with a scraper.
I actually use cards on the edges instead of scraper cutout too. I keep and collect old cards for this purpose

 

[slidingmike]

You can't bend a scraper that way to bend to conform to the arc of a concave base. You're fighting against the height of the scraper (too much material to bend against in that direction)

My 4+mm clear Swix scraper can/does certainly bend with pressure. The question is more about how concave, and which scraper. As @SlideWright & @raytseng mention above, thinner & bendier scrapers can be used as well. But then again, if you're careful to not gouge the base, maybe the short end can work...

I always wondered how snowboarders scraped; a 14" scraper would be pretty tough to use. You must be using a shorter scraper (carefully). Then again, most of my snowboarding friends never waxed their boards, repaired gouges, etc.

 

[raytseng]

It could be snwbrdr is scraping using chisel direction with a pull stroke, in that orientation I can see it's hard to pressure. But in butterthetoast direction with a push it is easy to bend the scraper concave, in fact you have to be careful you don't accidentally push it concave. I also don't understand the scraper height being a constraint. I can do it even with a triangle scraper.

Snowboarders just do 3 or 4 lane passes. There is less concern about keeping things exactly flat.

 

[SlideWright]

You can't bend a scraper that way to bend to conform to the arc of a concave base. You're fighting against the height of the scraper (too much material to bend against in that direction)

The sharper the scraper the easier. The 4mm T4B & 5mm Toko scrapers easily conform to whatever curve is needed. The wider 5mm Purl scraper not so much:

 

[Yo Momma]

With all the info on here about waxing recreational skis, I can't believe anyone outside the race circuit is still scaping. I use the blue shop towel technique @Philpug posted years ago. No mess (happy Wifey) and never looked back. Never noticed any recreational advantage to scraping doing back to back testing... and the scraping mess...Yuk!.... I haven't touched my scrapers or scraper sharpener in years. We've got too many skis to wax (20+) so I try to work smarter and cleaner not harder!

 

[SlideWright]

With all the info on here about waxing recreational skis, I can't believe anyone outside the race circuit is still scaping. I use the blue shop towel technique @Philpug posted years ago. No mess (happy Wifey) and never looked back. Never noticed any recreational advantage to scraping doing back to back testing... and the scraping mess...Yuk!.... I haven't touched my scrapers or scraper sharpener in years. We've got too many skis to wax (20+) so I try to work smarter and cleaner not harder!

If you don't believe in scraping and brushing for an optimal glide, absorbing the wax through a blue shop or paper towel takes longer than a light hot scrape. See around 2 minutes on first video:

Efficient Hot Waxing, Scraping and Brushing​

I'll wait for you at the bottom.

 

[jt10000]

If you don't believe in scraping and brushing for an optimal glide, absorbing the wax through a blue shop or paper towel takes longer than a light hot scrape. See around 2 minutes on first video:

Efficient Hot Waxing, Scraping and Brushing​

I'll wait for you at the bottom.

Yeah. I have often waxed, then very lightly hot scraped to take some of the wax off. What is called "light hot scraping" in the video. Then let the wax cool fully before I scrape/brush for real. This is fast. If the wax is very soft, i might use a shop towel to wipe it off instead of hot scraping.

From time to time I try the towel method and it works. It just seems slow to me.

 

[Yo Momma]

If you don't believe in scraping and brushing for an optimal glide, absorbing the wax through a blue shop or paper towel takes longer than a light hot scrape.

That's if you don't include wax cleanup and time and stress of Wifey yelling at you for the mess!!!!!!

 

[Dwight]

That's if you don't include wax cleanup and time and stress of Wifey yelling at you for the mess!!!!!!

Stop using the Kitchen.

 

[Dave Marshak]

That's if you don't include wax cleanup and time and stress of Wifey yelling at you for the mess!!!!!!

I switched to an IR lamp. Rarely smokes the wax and it’s so clean I can wax on the kitchen counter without a drop cloth. Clean up is easier than what you do after lunch. Mrs Marshak hasn’t figured out what I’m doing yet.

dm

 

[raytseng]

Ha, I'm one step ahead of you efficiency experts, about to do some trial runs using holmenkol liquid wax, for an even quicker clean sequence.
(I've tried toko spray, and it's good, but the spray cans means outside, and not a fan of the eco-ness of aerosol cans).

 

[Lauren]

I always wondered how snowboarders scraped; a 14" scraper would be pretty tough to use. You must be using a shorter scraper (carefully). Then again, most of my snowboarding friends never waxed their boards, repaired gouges, etc.

We're snowboarders...no rules!

Just kidding...it's the same approach I use for my skis. Doesn't really matter if the scraper goes all the way across or not...just do multiple passes. It all comes out flat at the end, especially once you put a brush to it.

Based on some of the responses here (and the precision in that Swix video)...many people would cringe about the anarchic approach I use for waxing/scraping. But whatever the approach...they glide better once I'm done waxing, so I think I'm doing something right.