Tuning Order of Operations

[jmeb]

I recently added a SkiVisions base structurer/flattener to the tuning quiver. And am wondering where it fits into to the general order of operations.

I know there is a lot more wisdom than my hackish ways out there, so feel free to correct.

When new / freshly ground:

- Set base bevel when the ski is ground/check when they are new. Typically by putting a bit of marker on the edge, then running my preferred bevel of 1-degree. Polish with diamond.
- Deburr base edge
- Set side edges. Polish with diamond.
- Deburr edges with gummi.
- Detune tips as necessary with file and/or gummi.

Regular maintenance:

- Deburr edges with gummi / diamond stones.
- Fix any base repairs.
- Polish base edge with diamond.
- Polish side edge with diamond.
- Deburr edges with gummi.
- Fine-tune any detuning as necessary.
- Hot scrape
- Wax / scrape / brush.


Now the question is: I've taken the SkiVisions tool to a few bases. And found its really nice how it can add structure, smooth out repairs, and flatten the base. A couple bases have had some base-high spots, one had a railed spot, and one was generally a bit base-high. It seems to me that I ought to be resetting base-bevels after using the SkiVisions tool for any flattening work (light structuring/repair flattening excepted). Is this reasonable? Unnecessary? Liable to screw up my tune?

For reference: I'm not a racer. I'm a western skiing on mostly soft snow who likes the ritual of ski tuning.

What's your tuning order of operations?

 

[Dave Marshak]

You need to flatten the base before you set the base edge, but you don't always need to reset the edge. I only reset it if I think my ski is hooking up too quickly. I use a fine stone on the base edge, but you will make the ski base high if you file it. It's way easier to increase the base angle than it is to decrease it.

I like all the Skivision stuff. There are several videos on Skivision dot us that show how to use the tools.

FWIW I would sell all my files and learn to fix core shots if I lived out West. YMMV.

dm

 

[ScotsSkier]

Don't touch the base edge, even with a diamond, after it is initially set. You can only increase it......

 

[Wilhelmson]

If op were using the base flattener to flatten a concave ski, wouldn't that involve shaving the base edges and require a new base angle to be set, or at least deburred?

 

[Doug Briggs]

Don't touch the base edge, even with a diamond, after it is initially set. You can only increase it......

Agreed, except...

Sometimes you have to use a stone to remove burrs and smooth out rough spots. If you use a ceramic on the base edge, you can't really change it that much, if at all. It just polishes and lets you know where the high burrs are.

Frankly, it's hard to actually burr the base edge. It is much easier to gouge it. Burrs need to be removed, gouges can be ignored for recreational skiing. When you gouge a base edge you usually burr the side edge. That burr needs to be removed by using a stone on the side edge. The final gummi takes out the silly small burrs that stoning can create.

If you do have to remove a burr on the base edge, just taper into and out of the area to be repaired so you don't affect more than a minimal part of the base edge.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Base flattening and structuring should precede bevel setting, otherwise you aren't working from a known flat surface to guide the bevel.

You can't take a rail out of a ski with a structuring tool. You can find it with one but that isn't good for the edge or the tool. Better to find the rails with a true bar. You should true bar the base of the ski before doing any base or base edge work to find out the condition of your bases. Forgetting to do this can ruin a tool when you start accidentally working steel edge with a tool that is intended to work only P-Text, not encounter steel.

 

[jmeb]

...
You can't take a rail out of a ski with a structuring tool. You can find it with one but that isn't good for the edge or the tool. Better to find the rails with a true bar. You should true bar the base of the ski before doing any base or base edge work to find out the condition of your bases. Forgetting to do this can ruin a tool when you start accidentally working steel edge with a tool that is intended to work only P-Text, not encounter steel.

Just for clarification. The SkiVisions tool includes a steel bar that can remove a moderate rail and its designer suggests using it in this manner. It wouldn't work for a completely railed ski (or would take a ton of time, and many re-sharpenings of the tool). The railing I"m referring to was on a quite wide ski and only approx 0.5mm off for a 3 or 4inches.

 

[Jacques]

Don't touch the base edge, even with a diamond, after it is initially set. You can only increase it......

Sometimes when damage is present it needs to be done.

 

[jmeb]

Great advice -- thanks all.

So yes, reset after significant flattening. But not necessary after minor work.

And yes, diamonds are really only for smoothing out gouges/burrs when necessary on the base edge.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Thanks for the correction on railing. I've not used the SkiVision device or others. I presumed (incorrectly) that it wasn't designed for that sort of thing. It seems that it isn't the same configuration of the tool for removing rails as it is for structuring, then. Is that correct?

 

[cantunamunch]

Just for clarification. The SkiVisions tool includes a steel bar that can remove a moderate rail and its designer suggests using it in this manner. It wouldn't work for a completely railed ski (or would take a ton of time, and many re-sharpenings of the tool). The railing I"m referring to was on a quite wide ski and only approx 0.5mm off for a 3 or 4inches.

That steel bar is far better at flattening Ptex repairs than it is at correcting railed bases. If you spooged too much metalgrip into an edgeside repair or if your candled Ptex didn't set quite hard, try the SkiVisions. It will rival all but the best burred flat steel scrapers. That steel bar is also semi-decent at removing a hanging burr, though there are other tools for this. The steel bar is EXCELLENT at removing warmed tar from a woodie.

Now, go to eBay and order a 10mm acrylic square bar. Yep, how to use your Skivisions as a hardwax scraper.

It seems that it isn't the same configuration of the tool for removing rails as it is for structuring, then. Is that correct?

One swaps the steel bar for a synthetic stone one to structure - the ruby bar feels roughly comparable to 220 grit sandpaper in surface roughness; the white bar is finer than that.

 

[Doug Briggs]

If I didn't work at a shop (that is about to get the Scout), I'd consider the SkiVisions tool. I've heard a lot of good about it.

 

[cantunamunch]

You guys had a different robot last season? Montana, IIRC?

 

[fullStack]

There is another SkiVisions tool that is good for removing railed edges:
http://www.slidewright.com/skivisions-file-base-flattener/

This comes with a bastard file and is much faster at removing material than the other SkiVisions planer (steel bar). It took me around 6 hours to remove railed edges for 2 sets of junior skis. (Long, slow process because you have to brush out the file so often.)
After that you can hit it with the planer and finally the structure bar if you want. Then set the base edge again.

Obviously, many would prefer to just get a base grind.

 

[KingGrump]

Ski Vision also makes another model - BF2 that takes a file for taking down the edges on a railed ski.
Had one for years. Never used it on an active ski. Trial runs on old skis only. A base grind at the shop is much faster and more effective.

 

[Doug Briggs]

You guys had a different robot last season? Montana, IIRC?

We currently have all Wintersteiger. Stone grinder, belt and TrimJet. The trimjet is robotic but edges only. The scout will replace the TrimJet and the stone grinder. Sorry, no more snowboard stone grinds.

The Scout does both base grinds and edging all unattended. The TrimJet was unattended, too, but required some operator assistance for certain tip and early rise configurations. With the Scout, as I understand it, you just load the skis, program the functions and step away.

I'll know better in October when it is delivered and installed.

 

[jmeb]

Is that correct?

Correct -- there is a structuring bar and a steel bar for reducing structure/smoothing and very minor railed bits of edges. As @cantunamunch points out -- it's not great on edges, its far better about ptex variations / metal grip.

And @cantunamunch -- great idea about the acrylic bar as a scraper. I hate using most scrapers, but that would be so easy.

 

[jmeb]

FWIW I would sell all my files and learn to fix core shots if I lived out West. YMMV.

Most of my friends look at me crazy when I sharpen my edges....

Ski Vision also makes another model - BF2 ...

Sadly unavailable until new files are sourced which fit correctly -- unless @SlideWright has different news.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Sometimes when damage is present it needs to be done.
View attachment 53844

Agreed Jacques, if you need to fix damage then you do need to do the minimum of work. I was responding to the OP that included

Regular maintenance:

- Deburr edges with gummi / diamond stones.
- Fix any base repairs.
- Polish base edge with diamond.
- Polish side edge with diamond.


And as DB stated, a ceramic stone has much less impact on the base bevel than a diamond if you really feel you must polish it....(and an Arkansas ceramic stone s a good approach to remove a hanging burr

 

[Wilhelmson]

A family of 4 skiing early season woods in the northeast means you'll have to touch up at least one base edge.

Unless the skis are screwed it's a wast of time getting a grind.when next week somebody is bound to hit a rock again. While I let the shop set the base after a grind, a medium diamond stone with the right guide has worked for me without wrecking the angle.