Tuck position/silly human trick

[Doug Briggs]

Seeing out of your eyebrows is the toughest part. If there's room on the run I'll just put the head completely down and look at the snow. There's less resistance. Well at least it sounds like it. I usually count a few seconds then look up again. I got the head down tip from a college racer.

Putting my head down was exactly what resulted in my injury in 1977. I apparently didn't see the slight variation in terrain and my skis split and I landed on my head.

 

[hbear]

Take it for what you will. If you can’t see it you can’t see it. I can tell you it’s there and that is the objective....and provided the rationale.

If you are able to, try it out. Hips down and back vs higher and forward. It’s much different as it pertains to shin pressure, control and aero.

On that note, higher and longer femur pertains to regular skiing as well. Back to the ankle usage and hip position again..

 

[James]

Are you saying this position?

 

[pchewn]

I imagine the "optimal" tuck is a compromise for aerodynamic drag reduction, stability of body vs wind forces, and stability/speed of the skis on the snow. It can't be all about the aerodynamics.

 

[hbear]

Not exactly, that's a high tuck (which has value on course given the ability to turn better from that position).
Position I'm speaking about has the hips being somewhat lower (but still over binding/boot) and shoulders at the same height/slightly lower than the hip.

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but there isn't just one tuck position that works best in all scenerios either. High tuck vs. standard vs. compact all have their place at different times and for different terrain. The key for a skier is ensuring adequate shin pressure and maintaining the use of the ankle flexion to faciliate turning and pressure on the front of the ski so it doesn't wobble away on you.

One can try in their boots, put them on, get some shin pressure and shoot the hips down and back (shin pressure pretty much vanishes). Now do the same but try and keep the hips forward as you go into tuck and you should notice a difference in the shin pressure and ankle mobility. Add some skis to the mix and you can get your hips (to get CM) further forward, much further forward before you feel like you are falling over; remembering skiing is done on a slope and not a perfectly flat horizontal surface.

 

[skix]

Nyman in a low tuck from the vid posted above.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I don't think a low tuck is possible with your derriere actually over the boot heels using a reference of 'over the heels' as a straight line perpendicular to the surface/ski you are standing on.

I imagine the "optimal" tuck is a compromise for aerodynamic drag reduction, stability of body vs wind forces, and stability/speed of the skis on the snow. It can't be all about the aerodynamics.

Optimal is completely context dependent. The expression, 'don't sacrifice the turn for the tuck', comes to mind. Sometimes you don't want to be the lowest you can be because you want to have better control of the ski/snow engagement. Other times aerodynamics is what is is all about, like the Brückenschuss & Gschöss in the Hahnenkamm. You know, those flats that they rarely show in their entirety that tax a racer's ability to ride a flat ski and their ski tech's ability to get the wax right.

 

[trailtrimmer]

I’m curious - is the tuck position difficult for normal people to do? It pretty much stretches the bejeezus out of my upper back and shoulders when I get my upper arms in front of my knees, and I suspect I’ve an abnormally tight upper back. No, I don’t have a need for it, ever, so this is more of a stupid/silly human trick question.

Getting away from the technical stuff, a tuck like that should be doable for at least 30 seconds without a huge amount of trouble. I'm guessing you have shoulder strength/flexibility issues.

What other sports or hobbies do you take part in? It's possible there is ramifications from it or from simply not doing enough upper body movements.


And I wonder if my beer league would get upset if I showed up with spoilers or a suit like that.

 

[James]

Reading the articles, the US went to custom tailored speed suits instead of fixed sizes.

It's hard to get actual numbers for alpine tuck comparisons. There's also a lifting force involved.
This crosscountry study put some numbers to it. 14 m/s is about 31mph.

Tuck a has a higher drag coeffiecient than b,c, or d ! but less area. It's still more drag force than b,c. Tuck b even had a higher drag coeff than d!
Tuck b barely wins here.

https://res.mdpi.com/proceedings/pr...edings-02-00313-v2.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

 

[Doby Man]

While all that may be true James, the paint gun targeting was perfect every time which was probably, obviously, the main key to this exercise.

 

[Pequenita]

What other sports or hobbies do you take part in? It's possible there is ramifications from it or from simply not doing enough upper body movements.

I taught yoga for 5 years and have had an advanced practice for 15 years. I’m pretty inflexible in the upper back and shoulders. On the plus side, I don’t have a slouch!

ETA - in the yoga population, we don't spend a ton of time getting into more spinal flexion, but over the years I've noticed that a lot of practitioners can easily get into (mostly) inverted positions that flex the upper back a lot (google "supported shoulder stand" or "plow pose"). I'd always thought it was more a core issue than flexibility issue, but now I'm starting to wonder.

 

[geepers]

Reading the articles, the US went to custom tailored speed suits instead of fixed sizes.

It's hard to get actual numbers for alpine tuck comparisons. There's also a lifting force involved.
This crosscountry study put some numbers to it. 14 m/s is about 31mph.

Tuck a has a higher drag coeffiecient than b,c, or d ! but less area. It's still more drag force than b,c. Tuck b even had a higher drag coeff than d!
Tuck b barely wins here.

View attachment 64937
View attachment 64938

https://res.mdpi.com/proceedings/pr...edings-02-00313-v2.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

Good find.

Think I'll just stay basically upright.

 

[Atomicman]

Well, shoot, @Doug Briggs. I had no idea that was why DH poles had the bend!

The bend he is talking about is different from the lower bend in a most DH poles. Yes, LEKI SG/DH are bent to wrap around the body as all are, but there is a designated right and left pole and the poles are angled inward from about 12" below each grip. When in a tuck, the poles force your hands together.

I know since this is what I use for my everyday pole.

 

[Atomicman]

This is my right pole.

 

[Atomicman]

There's an alternative to that tuck for getting along slow cat tracks.

Stand normally and tuck both extended arms behind your back. Hold poles firmly with your fingers and trailling out behind angled down to the snow - this adds some rotational inertia for stability. For a little extra streamlining take a more athletic stance and even lean the upper body forward somewhat but not nearly as far as the proper tuck.

Not as streamlined as the proper tuck but helps reduce air resistance without the effort.

I prefer a High Tuck , hands together still breaking the air. Your chest is a big air brake otherwise.

 

[mdf]

There's also a lifting force involved.

Ah, another variable. It might be worth a little extra air drag to reduce the downforce on the skis, and therefore the drag on the bottom of the skis.

 

[Tricia]

 

[crgildart]

Here's what I think a tuck looks like, based on the number of people I see "tucking" ....

View attachment 64693

We used to call the "what I really look like" fantasy tuck the "Sputnik position".

 

[Karl B]

I often have trouble getting as low as I would like, me belly keeps getting in the way when I forget to spread my stance, LOL.

 

[Tricia]

I have been "schooled" and am working on my tuck.

Hands out front if you want to avoid the B Netting.