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Transitioning from Knee and Ankle Roll to …

stevo

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Above there is zero speed control into the turn; I'm in the in the fall line for 1/2 a ski length or less & coming all the way across the hill..... Look @ what happens to my skis - near boot out. That's why speed control above the apex or better yet in the transition is needed. Its not sustainable, not safe & is highly energy consuming to ski in this manner.

YMMV

oh I think you are controlling your speed more so then if you were taking a more direct line in the fall line. Are you intentionally braking? Probably not ( we don’t see video), but that does not mean that your line choice is not contributing to keeping your speed under more control then if you stayed within say 30-45 degrees off the fall line.

that snow is also slowing you down a little bit so every millisecond you aren’t allowing yourself full acceleration from gravity is a millisecond of slowing. The efficiency of our skis in carving is not an on off switch with full efficiency even possible, your skis always have several things attempting to slow you down, one is friction but another is ground reaction force in a direction away from gravity and away from the direction your mass is currently moving. All of these things can contribute to controlling your speed, even when arcing pure, which sorry…. 99% of the time we aren’t. If you leave a 1mm cut in the hard ice in an s shape then ok you are. Otherwise, you aren’t and you are bleeding momentum all over the place. There are a lot of shades of grey there.

also contrary to what some may think, skidding is not the same as “friction”. Skidding means your edge is not providing complete ground reaction force to match all the energy you have in a turn. Some of it is bleeding away. They bled away energy is not slowing you! Ground reaction force slows you when the ski edge is not lined up with the direction of travel. Skidding a bit just allows you to get the ski angled further away from the direction of travel, thus getting more ground reaction force from an engaged edge that will neutralize some of your momentum energy. The bigger that angle the more slowing, but in order to get a very big angle you have to flatten your skis which increases skidding and decreases the braking. More skidding is not more friction. It is less friction. It means your skis are sliding sideways more now. Less friction. Yet we equate the skidding to slowing down. But see above, what actually slows us down is edge engagement and the least skidding possible while also having the largest steering angle you can get away with.

Yea, carving skis, even when not pure arcing, are very good at preserving much of the momentum energy, redirecting it in a new direction instead of slowing you, but it’s simply not perfect. Bending the shovel and having weight on the front of the ski will slow you down, even in a pretty darn pure carve. The bigger the steering angle the more this will be the case.

skidding itself doesn’t slow you down, it’s the ground reaction force away from the momentum vector and/or away from gravity. Imperfect ski snow interaction causes this to happen a little or a lot. Skidding does not equate to friction
 

BTWilliams

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I think it’s highly debatable whether his approach is actually controlling speed any better than say Ted can while carving to the fallline. There are various factors involved. I feel his approach, causes him to get to the fall line quickly and linger there, before finally carving out of it. He seems to want to call this kind of non arc to arc skiing with a redirect as “base” skiing. His exotic maneuvers are other things.

The video with Ted is hard to say exactly if he is going faster or slower then skidad, it is very well produced, a lot of it in slow mo and is truly excellent high level carving but also I feel very speed controlled in a much smoother way then ski dad was endorsing here.

speed control is not all about how to “brake”, it is about preventing a runaway train to begin with by blocking gravity from speeding you up during crucial phases of the turn. Staying out of fall line. Skidad goes right to the fall line, ends up there longer and then has a lot of work to do in the turn finish to slow down, which further compromises his ability to imitate the next turn quickly. His explanations of what he is talking about are not congruent. To me it just seems he wants to endorse his methods of base skiing with a redirect and a collection of exotic maneuvers useful in a racing context. And I feel his methods come from a racing background where he likely heavily endorsed stivoty moves for the sake of winning races. He is missing the beauty, elegance and grace of carving into the fallline. Something Ted does masterfully of course. I feel Ted’s idea of base skiing is mo betta. A redirect should be considered the exotic maneuver.

If you are unable to go low and tip the skis early and carve into it upside down, then perhaps you will need to use skidad’s exotic maneuvers to hop yourself to the fallline. If you are slow to develop edge angles then that will cause you to linger in the fallline longer. And speed up more.

I agree with what you say here. Further, I think we need to look at the sort of skis that skidad was on. I think he was on SL skis. These can be a crutch that builds bad bad habits... I recently went out and put on the 30m GS boards, and skied some steeper slopes. Prior to this...I had been exclusively on my SL boards for quite a while. Sure enough, being on SL skis had caused me to pick up some bad habits, which made speed control a real problem when I got on GS skis....

As you note, if you maintain arc to arc carving, the only way to slow yourself down is get in and out of the fall line as fast as possible. If you are arc to arc carving, it is simply average slope vs air drag. There is nothing else. So, to control speed, you must decrease your effective/average slope. "Slow line fast"...."Big Cs"...etc. In fact, if the hill is free of people...you can even go beyond traversing...and ski UP the hill. What these lines do is reduce the average slope of your path. You are travelling a longer distance for an amount of elevation drop. This will result in a lower "terminal velocity".

Technique wise, you must decisively start the new carve above the fall line. Any delay, any float, any extended period trying to start the new turn will result in you picking up speed because you are not carving strongly before the fall line, and by the time you get to the fall line, you are not fully bending the ski. The net result is too much time in the fall line, and speed gain. When you do not start the turn decisively and effectively, you end up making the effective slope greater, and terminal velocity is higher.

So, it is ALL about starting the new turn decisively. On SL skis you can do this a lot of ways. They develop turning forces so easy/quickly. You can just jump on the new ski with edge angle up, and it will "catch" you. But on GS skis, this does not work. They are too damp, and do not develop turning forces in pure carving quick enough. So...when I got back on the 30m GS boards...this is exactly what I was struggling with. What I found is that I had picked up bad habits from being on SL skis. I was I was finishing the turn, and transitioning to one ski to early (sort of like a one ski "Get Over It Drill"...whcih I had been doing a lot of to practice stacking....) and the GS ski was taking forever to start a new turn. Speed would get out of control instantly. So I had to remind myself to start the turn on two skis....like a RR track drill....but for just a TINY amount of time. This is literally just a split second of using that technique when you are in transition.

When doing a low transition, if you are smooth, and keeping the skis on the snow, when you get to that point that you have the skis flat, and are in the "toilet seat" position, the most effective technique for me was to use the exact same technique as used in the "RR tack drill". With weight on both skis, you use aggressive tipping of both skis, feel that new inside leg really "curl" and dont forget active hip hike so you are not impeding tipping. In other words, get the skis to start the turn, to build SOME forces...THEN transition to one ski. This completely changed the turn entry which had been influenced by spending so much time on SL boards. I would get the GS skis to develop turning forces way QUICKER ...and then as soon as they did, I could continue that inside knee motion drive into the inside leg shortening motion, get more aggressive with the hip hike, and smoothly transition to a high edge angle with the outside ski fully loaded, the inside ski just skimming, and a stacked strong position.

So I disagree with some of the other prior comments about "RR track technique" going "out the window" on steep slopes. It is still part of turn...but only for a tiny tiny but important phase of the turn. You use that swoopy two ski turn initiation for just a split second, and the instant you feel turning forces develop, then you will have confidence (stability) to transition again to a different mode...which is the long-strong stacked position on one ski, before the fall line. But if you try to stand on one ski too soon, and tip that one ski, your goose is cooked. The turn initiation will be way to slow, and you will gain speed. There is one caveat to this of course... If are going REALLY fast...and have the talent, you can of course jump on one ski at an insanely high angle to start and get it to turn...but we are talking WC level skiers who can do that on 30m GS skis. I am not strong enough to handle 3Gs on one leg....

So I spent two days skiing GS skis, and doing a ton of Garlands and RR track drills, really working on getting a quick "two ski" turn initiation from flat. It is all about getting the skis to develop moderate turning forces as fast as possible. Then I started doing what I call high speed RR tracks...doing them down a steeper slope, and after a few turns when speeds get out of control, continuing that RR track initiation, but transitioning into a one ski stacked carve, and holding it all the way around till I carved back up the hill and stopped, like the "fish hook" or "J" drill. Eventually I ingrained that two ski RR track initiation into my normal turn, and it was the answer to getting the fastest turn initiation possible on a GS ski. Finally, when I went back to SL skis, I found that using the same RR track feel initiation, for just a split second, made SL transitions even faster. After going through all this, my confidence in the steepness of slope I could still arc to arc on was greatly improved because my turn inititation was so much more decisive. I was getting in and out of the fall line as fast as possible. At this point, I feel the limit on how steep of a slope I can arc to arc carve is physical/athletic. Next step = stivot.
 
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stevo

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It’s all fine and an interesting discussion about controlling speed while pure arcing; but I am not exactly sure how or why pure arcing became part of this discussion. Ski dad certainly wasn’t attempting it, and his redirects if nothing else are obviously out of the realm of it. So why did pure arcing become a parameter for this discussion. it’s an interesting tangent, but I don’t see it as the be all end all goal.

Carving happens on a spectrum of efficiency with many opportunities for speed control besides only staying out of the fall line, though that is definitely a very very good component of speed control regardless of the level of carving efficiency you achieve, and will allow you to carve closer to arcs while still keeping the speed down. Line choice and tactics related to managing how much gravity takes you is a huge component of skiing speed control that avoids hard braking endeavors.

Actually I’m not really sure ski dad even cared about keeping the speed down he was just complaining that on the steeps he couldn’t seem to get a fast enough engagement with his ankles or a tight enough turn BECAUSE OF the speed, but not necessarily that he was even trying to go slower.

again, his late engagement was due to ILE transition. The ankles are mostly disabled while you are in the act of extension. So he says the ankles can’t do it. I say the way he is trying to do it is preventing his ankles from performing. It’s actually not just the ankles, we talk about it that way because they are the begininning of the kinetic chain, but it’s the entire leg complex of joints which are impeded from making tipping movements while in the process of extending. Thus ILE delivers a slower ski tipping action, requiring the CoM to crossover much more so in order to develop edge angles then can be the case when using the legs (starting at the ankles) to affect tipping movements.

That is the part ski dad seems to miss for now. I don’t think it matters whether you are arcing or carving or brush carving or anything else, if you are doing some kind of carving, it necessitates tipping the skis on edge the earlier the better.
 
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François Pugh

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That video addresses something I am working on - how to handle the carve when the pitch steepens. He offers a very clear description of how to do clean carves on low pitch terrain. He makes it clear that one needs to do something different on the steeper pitches to avoid speeds that are too challenging for mere mortals.

But I'm not so clear on what that different approach is. Here's what I got:

1. Ankle/knee roll for low pitch terrain. I get that. Hip to snow. Fast and fun.

2. On steeper pitch here's what I got the first time I watched the video:
Ski outside foot to outside foot
Use early extension of new outside leg to get early pressure on new outside ski
Skier still rolls the ankles/knees???
Skier stays more upright through the turn
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn (seems in conflict with early extension)
Land clean with tails following tips

3. Goal: the shorter radius turn avoids speed gain

Is this what you hear him saying?
It’s all fine and an interesting discussion about controlling speed while pure arcing; but I am not exactly sure how or why pure arcing became part of this discussion. Ski dad certainly wasn’t attempting it, and his redirects if nothing else are obviously out of the realm of it. So why did pure arcing become a parameter for this discussion. it’s an interesting tangent, but I don’t see it as the be all end all goal.
The answer to Steve's question can be found in Post # 2 Page 1
 

François Pugh

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@stevo is correct, it requires getting the skis on edge quickly, in less time than it takes you push yourself up into an inside leg extension release and come back down with weight on the new edge. Hence the flex to release transition.

Also some folks need to go back to Grade 12 Physics. Standing still at the top of a 200 metre ski hill you have 200 metres x 10 m/s/s x your mass (say 80 kg) of potential energy. All of that potential energy gets translated to kinetic energy due to velocity (1/2 x your mass x your velocity squared), except for the energy you use to do work. Work on the snow (deforming it or pushing it) and work against friction. There isn't a lot of air friction until you get going fast. If you are pure carving there isn't a lot of work on the snow. It's mostly friction. The friction is increased by grinding your edges sideways ( not pure carving and also increases work on snow), and by increasing the normal force on the base. Bending skis to a tighter radius requires more force, increasing the total length of travel increases the amount of energy lost (W= force(the normal force * coefficient of friction) x distance travelled.
 

LuliTheYounger

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Also some folks need to go back to Grade 12 Physics. Standing still at the top of a 200 metre ski hill you have 200 metres x 10 m/s/s x your mass (say 80 kg) of potential energy. All of that potential energy gets translated to kinetic energy due to velocity (1/2 x your mass x your velocity squared), except for the energy you use to do work. Work on the snow (deforming it or pushing it) and work against friction. There isn't a lot of air friction until you get going fast. If you are pure carving there isn't a lot of work on the snow. It's mostly friction. The friction is increased by grinding your edges sideways ( not pure carving and also increases work on snow), and by increasing the normal force on the base. Bending skis to a tighter radius requires more force, increasing the total length of travel increases the amount of energy lost (W= force(the normal force * coefficient of friction) x distance travelled.

I think the one issue with this model is that a lot of us didn't learn too much about biomechanics in 12th grade physics, at least past the central theme of "a random guy falls down a hill at x speed."
 

stevo

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Also some folks need to go back to Grade 12 Physics.

The physics of skiing are extremely complex and even Phd's struggle to completely define every aspect..there is nearly always just one more "yea but what about this?". It's very very complex. not 12th grade.

Standing still at the top of a 200 metre ski hill you have 200 metres x 10 m/s/s x your mass (say 80 kg) of potential energy. All of that potential energy gets translated to kinetic energy due to velocity (1/2 x your mass x your velocity squared), except for the energy you use to do work. Work on the snow (deforming it or pushing it) and work against friction. There isn't a lot of air friction until you get going fast. If you are pure carving there isn't a lot of work on the snow. It's mostly friction. The friction is increased by grinding your edges sideways ( not pure carving and also increases work on snow), and by increasing the normal force on the base. Bending skis to a tighter radius requires more force, increasing the total length of travel increases the amount of energy lost (W= force(the normal force * coefficient of friction) x distance travelled.

I suggest reading chapter 6 of the following book:

Physics of Skiing

(and better read chapters 1-5 on the way to chapter 6)

Air and snow "Friction" are part of skiing but play very little role in specifically how "skidding" slows us down. When we skid, the edge becomes somewhat of a "chisel". It is the ground reaction force in a direction other then the direction of travel that causes both change of direction as well as slowing effects. When the ski has large amounts of steering angle, particularly on the shovel, then there is a yaw effect, which decelerates us if the yaw angle is significant enough. Generally in order to get significant yaw angles...the ski has to be in a skid. But ironically if you are in a skid with a larger yaw ankle and also with the ski too flat, then the yaw angle will not have as much of a slowing effect, because it won't be "chiseling" enough, despite large amounts of actual skidding. Brushed carve speed control, for example, is all about how to optimize the right amount of chiseling effect with the engaged edge and its a balance between yaw angle, edge angle. If you edge enough, the ski will reduce skidding and tighten up the yaw very quickly. so this is definitely a feel thing.

contrary to what some of you say, there are very few if any true legit perfect carved, or arc'd turns in skiing, especially in the early phases of the turn. There is some amount of yaw and deceleration just from making a turn.

But we generally equate skidding to slowing because we get big yaw angles that way, but the slowing is not because of "friction", it is because of that yaw angle and ground reaction forces that are not parallel to the edge. the ski is bending, and non-uniformly, and where we are balanced on the ski front to back, edge angle, etc.. all play into various factors about what kind of yaw effect will be present, particularly in early phases of a carved turn.
 
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geepers

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@stevo is correct, it requires getting the skis on edge quickly, in less time than it takes you push yourself up into an inside leg extension release and come back down with weight on the new edge. Hence the flex to release transition.

Also some folks need to go back to Grade 12 Physics. Standing still at the top of a 200 metre ski hill you have 200 metres x 10 m/s/s x your mass (say 80 kg) of potential energy. All of that potential energy gets translated to kinetic energy due to velocity (1/2 x your mass x your velocity squared), except for the energy you use to do work. Work on the snow (deforming it or pushing it) and work against friction. There isn't a lot of air friction until you get going fast. If you are pure carving there isn't a lot of work on the snow. It's mostly friction. The friction is increased by grinding your edges sideways ( not pure carving and also increases work on snow), and by increasing the normal force on the base. Bending skis to a tighter radius requires more force, increasing the total length of travel increases the amount of energy lost (W= force(the normal force * coefficient of friction) x distance travelled.

Seem to be spherical chicken in a vacuum approach.

In the real world friction is always an issue, even for a skier carving very well.

Consider... ski down a pitch, make as purely carved turn as possible and see if you can ski back to your starting point. Can't be done - there's always some energy loss. So now you are lower down the hill (less potential energy) and again starting from zero speed. Repeat. In this way can arrive at the bottom of the pitch at very low speed having controlled speed by line alone. (And if able to make a hip on snow tight turns wouldn't even need a particularly wide pitch.)

A skier carving back and forth across a pitch with a good offset for each turn is going to end up with a slower speed at the base than a skier who skis straight down the fall line. The less time spent skiing straight down the fall line the less speed gained between turns and more significant the non-conservative forces (ski-snow friction, snow displacement, etc) will be compared to effect of gravity. And since the distance travelled along the curved path is greater than the straight path those friction forces apply for longer. More work done and a less potential energy converted to kinetic.

Example: on a very mild pitch it's entirely possible to gain speed (up to the terminal velocity on that pitch) skiing straight down the fall line however it is may be impossible to maintain speed doing even gentle carved turns on that same pitch.
 

François Pugh

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Also (in grade 12 physics) a force (call it ground reaction force if you like) that is 90 degrees to the direction of motion will not slow down the motion, only change the direction of that motion. This is pure carving. But there will be friction force opposing the direction of motion and the magnitude of that friction force will depend on the normal force. Now if your edges are not parallel to their direction of motion, there will be slowing down (not pure carving).

ogwink Hundreds of years old physics will suffice, Newtonian physics, taught in high school (at least it used to be). Now if you were skiing close to the speed of light, you would need Ph.D. level physics.
 

stevo

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Friction is not relevant to this discussion.

Even when you are hypothetically arcing the shovel of Your ski is bent into position that it is not getting exactly 90! Degrees. The distribution of pressure on your ski is not perfectly uniform. Your ski is bent it is not a straight line that you can be parallel with.

there is always some yaw in the form of steering angle. Go read the book if you would like a better understanding, sorry but skidded speed control is not about friction, and hypothetical purely arced turns are also not perfectly efficient. Realistic imperfectly arc’d turns are even less efficient.
 
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geepers

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ogwink Hundreds of years old physics will suffice, Newtonian physics, taught in high school (at least it used to be). Now if you were skiing close to the speed of light, you would need Ph.D. level physics.

Hmmm... newtonian is fine as long as all the forces are considered. In reality, we seldom carve absolutely purely. For one thing ski has to make a platform in the snow - it's not an infinitely hard surface so there's going to be some snow displacement even on ice. Even WC skiers on water injected leave tracks. For another, any particular shaped ski will only perfectly fit a flat plane at one tipping angle - we need to tip the skis through a range of angles to transition from one turn to the next.

We covered special relativity in high school physics. Basically how to fit a 20ft pole in a 10ft shed.
 

François Pugh

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Hmmm... newtonian is fine as long as all the forces are considered. In reality, we seldom carve absolutely purely. For one thing ski has to make a platform in the snow - it's not an infinitely hard surface so there's going to be some snow displacement even on ice. Even WC skiers on water injected leave tracks. For another, any particular shaped ski will only perfectly fit a flat plane at one tipping angle - we need to tip the skis through a range of angles to transition from one turn to the next.

We covered special relativity in high school physics. Basically how to fit a 20ft pole in a 10ft shed.
That would take a lot of energy ogwink
Work does get done on the snow for sure, and skis do have some flex. As to perfect carving, pobody's nerfect, but lots of people are good enough to negate speed control through line choice on most steep runs.
 

geepers

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As to perfect carving, pobody's nerfect, but lots of people are good enough to negate speed control through line choice on most steep runs.

Have a different take on what constitutes the higher skill. Doesn't seem to be too much trouble to 'pure' carve to excess speed. To me the higher skill is continuing to carve (i.e. turns without redirecting the skis) whilst keeping speed under control as the pitch steepens. Personal goal is to ski increasingly steep runs without having to chuck the skis sideways - tend to tap out on middle blues atm (depending on snow hardness).

This bit of the thread highlights why that's such a challenge. Sure, can chuck the skis sideways but that defeats the objective.
 

François Pugh

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Have a different take on what constitutes the higher skill. Doesn't seem to be too much trouble to 'pure' carve to excess speed. To me the higher skill is continuing to carve (i.e. turns without redirecting the skis) whilst keeping speed under control as the pitch steepens. Personal goal is to ski increasingly steep runs without having to chuck the skis sideways - tend to tap out on middle blues atm (depending on snow hardness).

This bit of the thread highlights why that's such a challenge. Sure, can chuck the skis sideways but that defeats the objective.
I think we are talking past each other.
You don't have to be skiing completely sideways to control your speed. You don't have to making almost perfect pure arc-2-arc carves either, but that is the most fun way to ski if it's not too bumpy for the speed you will be carrying and you have suitable skis for the turn size and turn forces for the turns you need to make at those speeds. You could be making tight turns throwing up a lot of spray, You could be "stivoting" at transition and using the front of the skis to slow down in the top part of the turn. There's a lot of links on how to ski steeps without making linked hocky stops or reaching terminal velocity. But you cannot be making what I would call pure arc-2-arc (albeit maybe not perfect) and leaving clean tracks with tails following tips. There's a limit that you will reach on steep slopes before line choice alone without resorting to non-pure carved turns keeps your speed down sufficiently for most people's comfort and safety.
 

stevo

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But you cannot be making what I would call pure arc-2-arc (albeit maybe not perfect) and leaving clean tracks with tails following tips. There's a limit that you will reach on steep slopes before line choice alone without resorting to non-pure carved turns keeps your speed down sufficiently for most people's comfort and safety.

I don’t think I agree. Depends on the snow, depends on the sidecut. If you aren’t afraid of speed and no people around you can take a more direct line arc to arc no problem. Yes very fast. If you have slalom skis you might be able to go slower and still be pretty close to arc 2 arc. Hard snow is much harder to do it and it does get much more difficult even to do brushed carving on steep hard snow.

like geepers I also feel brushed carving well is a more nuanced skill level. Especially in steep hard snow. The problem for most of us in steep hard snow is not necessarily the speed as much as it is large g forces which becomes more athletic and balance becomes higher consequence to arc. But brushing in steep hard snow is difficult due to having to find the sweet spot of not chattering and still edging effectively to brush carve and not k wash out the tails. Arc to arc is actually easier in that situation but will involve high speeds if you take a more direct line to avoid the g forces and balance consequences
 

François Pugh

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Arc to arc is actually easier in that situation but will involve high speeds if you take a more direct line to avoid the g forces and balance consequences
Arc-2-Arc pure carving will involve high speeds is EXACTLY what I am saying, but
I am also saying it will involve high speeds using any line the skis are capable of following while making pure arc-2-arc carved turns, given a typical run on a steep slope. I believe that they who believe other wise have a different definition of pure arc-2-arc carving than I do. Turn forces normal to the direction of travel, will not slow an object down. It's simple physics. You will increase the length of the line, but that will only add so much to friction forces. You will soon be going at forces where the tipping angle required not to slip out of the groove the ski is cutting will make your ski try and turn tighter than your turn and you will not be pure carving any longer. You can get a DH racing ski to avoid that problem by making turns suitable for 3 g at the speed you're going, but you will then be going fast very fast. Typically what happens is the ski does bend too far and the skier feels the ski carving under foot where it is straight as the tips are scraping, which somehow they don't notice.

Pure arc-2-arc carving on steeps is certainly possible with the right ski, though few will want to do it.
Speed control, meaning not skiing fast, on steeps requires more than line choice alone.

I'm describing physics above, not operator skill. At the top end of the skill development, it is just as difficult to make a near-perfect non-pure arced turn as it is to make a near-perfect pure arced turn. Still, aside from the top echelons, I see many more people who lack the skill to make pure arc-2-arc turns than I see people who can make pure arc-2-arc turns but cannot make other turns fairly well.
 

stevo

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I think if you make your Steve Austin super fast arc to arc turns and try to go out of your way to bend the shovel without skidding you will find that you can get some speed control that way too. Just one more example. It is not only about line and most definitely it is not about friction. Yes of course skidding provides even more speed control primarily because of increased yaw angle. But you have some of that with carved and arc’d turns too, they are not perfectly 100% efficient.

I think I have read several different definitions in this forum about what arc to arc skiing even is, so without a commonly accepted definition it’s a lot of noise being expressed about it. True edge locked (not base locked for lack of a better word but even that is not really locked per say) arc to arc skiing is only even possible on hard snow and would leave a very thin line similar as left by an ice skater. Anything other than that is not actually true arcing or truly edge locked. If it’s not truly edge locked, then energy is being lost and speed affected downward. There is a distinctly different feeling, but again why are we even talking about this? For the most part it is a theoretical condition and rarely present in real skiing other then perhaps some park and riding on gentle slopes or for some portions of high performance carved turns. I would love to see video of someone you think is making edge locked arc to arc turns on a steep slope and we can talk more concretely about what we see but otherwise I find the whole topic kind of pointless.

in softer snow there can be arcing without edge lock. you don’t feel a lot of skidding per say but it’s still not edge locked and energy is being lost, and even more possibilities to bend the shovel in creative ways and do things other then line choice that will slow you down. Again, it’s obvious that skidding and brushed carving can slow you down even more.
 
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geepers

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ike geepers I also feel brushed carving

No, I don't mean brushed carves.

Although agree with @Brian Finch that RR goes out the window pretty quickly. But it's fun to push our own skills.

Speed control, meaning not skiing fast, on steeps requires more than line choice alone.

Maybe vertical ice rinks aren't the only place to ski?

Think steeper (than a skier could carve last month which might be green, blue or black) not steepest, hardest mofo on the continent.

I'm describing physics above, not operator skill.

Ok, trying to explain another way.... There's a thing they talk about on the WC - skiers who are soft on their edges being faster than those who are too edge heavy. That's not about the stivot part of the turn. Friction is a factor even in a well carved turn.

pure arc-2-arc carved turns

Tracks left in the snow are pretty good evidence for how well the turn is carved. And there's a world of difference between the tracks of a brush carved turn and those made without pivoting the ski.

What you describe - getting faster n faster - kind of brings to mind the description here at 0:40 -> 01:00.
 

stevo

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The world is my oyster
No, I don't mean brushed carves.

please explain what you meant earlier then, perhaps I misunderstood you here:

To me the higher skill is continuing to carve (i.e. turns without redirecting the skis) whilst keeping speed under control as the pitch steepens. Personal goal is to ski increasingly steep runs without having to chuck the skis sideways - tend to tap out on middle blues atm (depending on snow hardness).

But in any case, brushed carving...which is another way of saying non-edge-locked carving....does require a high level of finesse and skill...in my view..more so then just tip and rip RR tracks. Or perhaps you were talking about something closer to pure RR tracks after all and i misunderstood you, in which case my apologies.

Tracks left in the snow are pretty good evidence for how well the turn is carved. And there's a world of difference between the tracks of a brush carved turn and those made without pivoting the ski.

By the way "brushed carving" does not involve pivoting or a "redirect". it is carving but not edge locked arcing. There is no pivoting involved. Pivoting, redirecting and hard edge recovery braking....stivoting....etc...that is something else that has nothing to do with carving, including so called "brushed" carving.

They say the eskimos have so many different words to define the exact kind of snow. I think we need a few more words to define nuances of carving...
 
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geepers

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please explain what you meant earlier then, perhaps I misunderstood you here:

Pure carving where the tail of the ski exactly follows the tip to within a micrometer is an impossible utopia.

But in any case, brushed carving...which is another way of saying imperfect non-edge-locked carving....does require a high level of finesse and skill...in my view..more so then just tip and rip RR tracks. Or perhaps you were talking about something closer to pure RR tracks after all and i misunderstood you, in which case my apologies.

Would define brushed carving as one where the tail is displaced from the track of the tip by anything from a couple of few cm to, maybe, 20-25cm and that displacement is controlled by the skier. So not an edge locked carve and not a skid.

By the way "brushed carving" does not involve pivoting. it is carving but not edge locked arcing. There is no pivoting involved. Pivoting, skidding and braking....stivoting....etc...that is something else that has nothing to do with carving, including so called "brushed" carving.

If the tail is displaced from the track of the tip then the ski has pivoted in some way, allowing for the softness of the snow.

There's not a perfect definition as carving to skidding occurs on a continuum rather than in discrete increments.
 

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