Transitioning from Knee and Ankle Roll to …

[tomahawkins]

… to flying across the fall line? I like this guy.

 

[LiquidFeet]

That video addresses something I am working on - how to handle the carve when the pitch steepens. He offers a very clear description of how to do clean carves on low pitch terrain. He makes it clear that one needs to do something different on the steeper pitches to avoid speeds that are too challenging for mere mortals.

But I'm not so clear on what that different approach is. Here's what I got:

1. Ankle/knee roll for low pitch terrain. I get that. Hip to snow. Fast and fun.

2. On steeper pitch here's what I got the first time I watched the video:
Ski outside foot to outside foot
Use early extension of new outside leg to get early pressure on new outside ski
Skier still rolls the ankles/knees???
Skier stays more upright through the turn
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn (seems in conflict with early extension)
Land clean with tails following tips

3. Goal: the shorter radius turn avoids speed gain

Is this what you hear him saying?

 

[GB_Ski]

As far as I can tell, he's saying knee & ankle roll is too slow to apply properly when skiing steeper pitch at higher speed, or too hard to apply (due to the pressure in the skis and body).

 

[Brian Finch]

As far as I can tell, he's saying knee & ankle roll is too slow to apply properly when skiing steeper pitch at higher speed, or too hard to apply (due to the pressure in the skis and body).

^this

That video addresses something I am working on - how to handle the carve when the pitch steepens. He offers a very clear description of how to do clean carves on low pitch terrain. He makes it clear that one needs to do something different on the steeper pitches to avoid speeds that are too challenging for mere mortals.

But I'm not so clear on what that different approach is. Here's what I got:

1. Ankle/knee roll for low pitch terrain. I get that. Hip to snow. Fast and fun.

2. On steeper pitch here's what I got the first time I watched the video:
Ski outside foot to outside foot
Use early extension of new outside leg to get early pressure on new outside ski
Skier still rolls the ankles/knees???
Skier stays more upright through the turn
Skis will rebound
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn
Land clean with tails following tips

3. Goal: the shorter radius turn avoids speed gain

Is this what you hear him saying?

^ I have worked w/ Joe a lil this season and his take to me has been to "hide the slide" in the top of the turn. How you do this, Joe calls these exotic maneuvers (butters, stivots, feathering the top of the turn). In contrast, where most teach 'learn the high C', Joe prescribes going lateral and scrubbing speed after transition so you have control in the turn and a clean exit.

If you hit him up on social media & toss him a tip, he will consult with you. I've found this very helpful and reassuring as I was always trying to rail everything and then needing to dump speed in the turn. I tried convincing a group that I was scrubbing early to save the exit a few days back & ppl would not believe it. It's speed control.

YMMV

 

[Zirbl]

But I'm not so clear on what that different approach is.

He has a separate video on that. Basically what @Brian Finch describes.

I have worked w/ Joe a lil this season

In person or online?

 

[Brian Finch]

In person or online?

Online

 

[GB_Ski]

^ I have worked w/ Joe a lil this season and his take to me has been to "hide the slide" in the top of the turn. How you do this, Joe calls these exotic maneuvers (butters, stivots, feathering the top of the turn). In contrast, where most teach 'learn the high C', Joe prescribes going lateral and scrubbing speed after transition so you have control in the turn and a clean exit.

I think it's really hard to do what he's describing. Physically, and mentally. At transition, most skiers would be on their ski tail (aft). If they are carrying speed and momentum, you need some serious strength and skill to pull those exotic moves.

 

[4ster]

Skis will rebound
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn

^To me, these are the keys on steeper terrain.
BTW, his steep terrain in the video is only moderately steep (solid blue, next to the NASTAR hill at Deer Valley) & his re-direction is subtle compared to what he would do on black terrain depending on how wide a corridor you are skiing.

Similar pitch, let the skis pass under the CoM.…

On steeper terrain pull the feet back aggressively, up & under your butt during transition. Tip (to high edge angles early) & aim the feet & skis toward the apex & be ready for the almighty ski bend/pressure.

 

[Brian Finch]

I think it's really hard to do what he's describing. Physically, and mentally. At transition, most skiers would be on their ski tail (aft). If they are carrying speed and momentum, you need some serious strength and skill to pull those exotic moves.

When I teach this, you can start a progression by playing with a transition where the skis just drift to the side & then you hook em up when desired. Get comfy & build. Subtle.

It’s a hoot on steep terrain at speed tossing the feet out like you’re sliding into third base & pulling the toes up to stivot hard against the hill; this (techie sorry) will toss your COM down the hill & then you can release the skis into the fallline at the desired angle.

 

[Brian Finch]

I think it's really hard to do what he's describing. Physically, and mentally.

Ok, it does take some mental gymnastics

 

[Zirbl]

tossing the feet out like you’re sliding into third base

Nice description.

 

[LiquidFeet]

He has a separate video on that.

Link?

 

[Brian Finch]

Link?

I’d advise watching Base Skiing 1 & 2 prior.

 

[4ster]

“Clean Completions” …

…lead to smooth transitions.

 

[JESinstr]

That video addresses something I am working on - how to handle the carve when the pitch steepens. He offers a very clear description of how to do clean carves on low pitch terrain. He makes it clear that one needs to do something different on the steeper pitches to avoid speeds that are too challenging for mere mortals.

But I'm not so clear on what that different approach is. Here's what I got:

1. Ankle/knee roll for low pitch terrain. I get that. Hip to snow. Fast and fun.

2. On steeper pitch here's what I got the first time I watched the video:
Ski outside foot to outside foot
Use early extension of new outside leg to get early pressure on new outside ski
Skier still rolls the ankles/knees???
Skier stays more upright through the turn
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn (seems in conflict with early extension)
Land clean with tails following tips

3. Goal: the shorter radius turn avoids speed gain

Is this what you hear him saying?

LF. In watching his video, no matter what body parts he is advocating/including in his play by play commentary, the simple fact is that this guy gets his feet, under, over out and away to create an inclined position high up in the turn so that angulation can follow into the belly of the turn.

From your contributions to this forum, I know you are well enough skilled to envision a macro image of where you need to get to vs a sequential micro list of anatomical movements. And trust me, although I am too old to ski anywhere near as dynamic and fast as he does, the same principals apply no matter what the pitch of the slope.

 

[stevo]

I never heard about SkiDad until a month or two ago. I staunchly disagree with his POV on this video and a previous one he made before this one which was also another anti-ankle-roll video, to a certain degree he may be trying to dig himself out of some earlier comments he made, but hey whatever... What I can say is that he is presenting as fact, some false conclusions about speed control and early edge engagment.

My own assessment of his skiing after watching his videos for the past month or two is that he is deficient in this area and could use some improvement, which is fine don't we all need some improvement in one thing or another, but his conclusions are somewhat based on his own experiences and his own deficiencies in this area, IMHO/FWIW. On easy terrain he is able to roll his ankles onto edges early and speed control is not necessary. When it gets steeper he is unable to do it fast enough, he openly admits that, and then goes on to make the claim that since its not possible for him to get on the edges early, it must not be a good way to control speed, which is just. false conclusion completely. He has no speed control above the apex because he is deficient in developing early edge engagement. His conclusion for himself is to give up trying and instead pivot the skis in order to control speed below the apex.

He has a number of videos demonstrating pivot entries as his preferred "base" ski turn type, which is essentially skipping early turn speed control. As such I believe he has a poor understanding about speed control that is possible above the apex of the turn. His background is racing where speed control is almost never a priority.

FWIW

That video addresses something I am working on - how to handle the carve when the pitch steepens. He offers a very clear description of how to do clean carves on low pitch terrain. He makes it clear that one needs to do something different on the steeper pitches to avoid speeds that are too challenging for mere mortals.

He is giving up on his own inability to establish edge angles early. The key is to get better at doing that. Or you can just give up on it also and control your speed below the apex as he appears to believe is the best way.

1. Ankle/knee roll for low pitch terrain. I get that. Hip to snow. Fast and fun.

Only real difference is that on low angle terrain you don't have to turn as far out of the fall line and can even allow yourself to go faster because you are more comfortable with the speed on the lower angle and not worried about being able to slow yourself on demand. Turning further out of the fall line is more difficult and requires better execution in order to get early edge engagement. Its harder....and truthfully many people can't do it, including Ski Dad apparently.

2. On steeper pitch here's what I got the first time I watched the video:
Ski outside foot to outside foot

sure. Good.

Use early extension of new outside leg to get early pressure on new outside ski

That's what ski Dad does, but unfortunately its also part of why he is deficient at getting early edge engagement.

Skier still rolls the ankles/knees???

Yes, always. According to me. Not according to Ski Dad who has given up on that thinking it doesn't work.

Skier stays more upright through the turn
Redirect light/airborne skis for sharper turn (seems in conflict with early extension)
Land clean with tails following tips

Don't understand that bit...

3. Goal: the shorter radius turn avoids speed gain

If he said that I wasn't paying attention by then he lost me already by giving up on early edge engagement for which I think he is patently wrong.

Regarding speed, let's divide that into two variations, momentum and tempo. Shorter turns are adept at squashing momentum that you haven't controlled, but also adept at injecting a lot of fast tempo energy into your turns. Fast tempo energy can be fun, but as I get older I don't enjoy tight slalom tempo as much as I used to. But I think you can manage your momentum in a medium-long radius turn also, its not true to say that a medium-long radius turns necessarily means fast without momentum control, its just that you have to be in charge of actually doing that, in a short radius turn you will be doing it without thinking about it by virtue of trying to make the shorter turns, which will either be very energetic, or will have certain speed controlling aspects (smearing instead of arcing), etc. More likely you will be doing a lot of end-of-turn braking, and doing that more often at a short radius fast tempo. But also consider that with short radius turns you have much less time to do those smearing kinds of things. Its happening very very fast tempo, so its actually much more difficult to finesse edging related speed control at that tempo, compared to a medium radius turn where you have a lot more time to do it.

secondly, already hinted towards the whole idea of arcing vs smearing...brushed carving...whatever you want to name it... You can't use those techniques when your edges are not engaged. If you pivot your skis until they are pretty much pointed in the fall line (and a lot of people pivot even further than that!), then guess what, no speed control occurred above the apex. Now all your speed control will have to happen below the apex, during half the turn. If you engage early, then you can use edging early to control your speed before you even reach the apex. By the time you get to the fall line, you will have already affected some speed control and will have even less speed control that you need to do below the apex compared to if you had pivoted to there. This is fundamentally why early edge engagement is so important for speed control on the steeps.

But in answer to your question about turn size, a medium sized turn gives you more time to do that!

Speed control on the steeps is about keeping your claws engaged in the snow as much as possible in every turn, not going airborne and pivoting your skis to the fall line. There is speed control in gripping the snow with your claws. But It also means choosing not to arc purely in some cases. it's also about line choice. In the fall line is where you pick up the most speed. stay out of the fall line for longer periods of time to avoid picking up speed. That can include at the turn finish as everyone knows, but it can also include during the initial part of the turn above the apex, presuming you don't jump in the air and skip it as Ski Dad endorses.

 

[Brian Finch]

I never heard about SkiDad until a month or two ago. I staunchly disagree with his POV on this video and a previous one he made before this one which was also another anti-ankle-roll video, to a certain degree he may be trying to dig himself out of some earlier comments he made, but hey whatever... What I can say is that he is presenting as fact, some false conclusions about speed control and early edge engagment.

My own assessment of his skiing after watching his videos for the past month or two is that he is deficient in this area and could use some improvement, which is fine don't we all need some improvement in one thing or another, but his conclusions are somewhat based on his own experiences and his own deficiencies in this area, IMHO/FWIW. On easy terrain he is able to roll his ankles onto edges early and speed control is not necessary. When it gets steeper he is unable to do it fast enough, he openly admits that, and then goes on to make the claim that since its not possible for him to get on the edges early, it must not be a good way to control speed, which is just. false conclusion completely. He has no speed control above the apex because he is deficient in developing early edge engagement. His conclusion for himself is to give up trying and instead pivot the skis in order to control speed below the apex.

He has a number of videos demonstrating pivot entries as his preferred "base" ski turn type, which is essentially skipping early turn speed control. As such I believe he has a poor understanding about speed control that is possible above the apex of the turn. His background is racing where speed control is almost never a priority.

FWIW



He is giving up on his own inability to establish edge angles early. The key is to get better at doing that. Or you can just give up on it also and control your speed below the apex as he appears to believe is the best way.



Only real difference is that on low angle terrain you don't have to turn as far out of the fall line and can even allow yourself to go faster because you are more comfortable with the speed on the lower angle and not worried about being able to slow yourself on demand. Turning further out of the fall line is more difficult and requires better execution in order to get early edge engagement. Its harder....and truthfully many people can't do it, including Ski Dad apparently.



sure. Good.



That's what ski Dad does, but unfortunately its also part of why he is deficient at getting early edge engagement.



Yes, always. According to me. Not according to Ski Dad who has given up on that thinking it doesn't work.



Don't understand that bit...



If he said that I wasn't paying attention by then he lost me already by giving up on early edge engagement for which I think he is patently wrong.

Regarding speed, let's divide that into two variations, momentum and tempo. Shorter turns are adept at squashing momentum that you haven't controlled, but also adept at injecting a lot of fast tempo energy into your turns. Fast tempo energy can be fun, but as I get older I don't enjoy tight slalom tempo as much as I used to. But I think you can manage your momentum in a medium-long radius turn also, its not true to say that a medium-long radius turns necessarily means fast without momentum control, its just that you have to be in charge of actually doing that, in a short radius turn you will be doing it without thinking about it by virtue of trying to make the shorter turns, which will either be very energetic, or will have certain speed controlling aspects (smearing instead of arcing), etc. More likely you will be doing a lot of end-of-turn braking, and doing that more often at a short radius fast tempo. But also consider that with short radius turns you have much less time to do those smearing kinds of things. Its happening very very fast tempo, so its actually much more difficult to finesse edging related speed control at that tempo, compared to a medium radius turn where you have a lot more time to do it.

secondly, already hinted towards the whole idea of arcing vs smearing...brushed carving...whatever you want to name it... You can't use those techniques when your edges are not engaged. If you pivot your skis until they are pretty much pointed in the fall line (and a lot of people pivot even further than that!), then guess what, no speed control occurred above the apex. Now all your speed control will have to happen below the apex, during half the turn. If you engage early, then you can use edging early to control your speed before you even reach the apex. By the time you get to the fall line, you will have already affected some speed control and will have even less speed control that you need to do below the apex compared to if you had pivoted to there. This is fundamentally why early edge engagement is so important for speed control on the steeps.

But in answer to your question about turn size, a medium sized turn gives you more time to do that!

Speed control on the steeps is about keeping your claws engaged in the snow as much as possible in every turn, not going airborne and pivoting your skis to the fall line. There is speed control in gripping the snow with your claws. But It also means choosing not to arc purely in some cases. it's also about line choice. In the fall line is where you pick up the most speed. stay out of the fall line for longer periods of time to avoid picking up speed. That can include at the turn finish as everyone knows, but it can also include during the initial part of the turn above the apex, presuming you don't jump in the air and skip it as Ski Dad endorses.

I have never seen anything posted so inaccurate in this forum. Joe was a NCAA all American & one of the better skiers of the early 2000s. He’s calling out the forward move / ankle role dogma - I see only one way to settle this. A ski off!

Trust me, at a certain speed (lower than you think) the rail road tracks skiing goes out the window.

 

[Brian Finch]

Someone go tell River to roll the ankle more and keep those skis on the snow.

 

[stevo]

I have never seen anything posted so inaccurate in this forum. Joe was a NCAA all American & one of the better skiers of the early 2000s. He’s calling out the forward move / ankle role dogma - I see only one way to settle this. A ski off!

Trust me, at a certain speed (lower than you think) the rail road tracks skiing goes out the window.

you have poor judgement then, my analysis is spot on. By the way NCAA racing is not the same set of skills or tactics as recreational skiing and speed control, that is why I noted his racing background.

My comments were not meant as a broad criticism of SkiDad, just this particular video which is patently false. I don't know this forward move thing, I seem to recall there was one video where he was getting forward without a forward move and I think I correctly identified he was doing that primarily by being forward to begin with rather than having to actually move there after float. He accomplishes that at least partly by not flexing deeply during transition, his legs stay longer, which is part of why he's struggling to get early edge engagement by the way.

Also I have not endorsed rail road tracks skiing at all, perhaps you didn't read me carefully. But still neither is he apparently if he is talking about a pivot entry to control speed.

 

[geepers]

SkiDad shows actual vid of his skiing.