Transition from Up-unweighting to Down-unweighting

[mdf]

As others have said, this [weight on outside ski] isn't old fashioned.

Well, it did go out of fashion for a while.

 

[Noodler]

It's OK by me, not a rant, but the kind of observations that could lead to productive discussion.

This raises what to my mind is a legitimate question--is a bit of tip diversion in the initiation phase necessarily a bad thing? Look at World Cup racers, and I believe you'll see it from time to time. If you're going to achieve big edge angles, you'll need substantial "vertical separation." If you come out of a transition without horizontal separation sufficient to support that, your skis will need to diverge a bit in the initiation phase, right? Preferential inside foot tipping creating an "O-frame" could certainly lead to diversion, I agree.



Well, the whole idea of tipping the inside ski is to create angulation. Like any movement in skiing, there's a risk that if performed incorrectly it can have unintended and undesirable results. The Harbians with whom I've had contact have been all about angulation, and even more all about outside ski dominance, at which one will never be successful if one is banking. Yes, tipping has to be done correctly, and I don't think anyone is saying that it's the only focus one needs to have. Also, I don't understand your view that Harb's methods are a contrast to "softening then active shortening." He's a strong advocate of transition completely through flexion.



Yes, it has to be done right. The instruction I've received has focused strongly on holding the inside foot back right from the transition. It's not a movement to be started only some way into the new turn. Tip lead should be minimized at all phases of the turn, and actually it's only at the apex that the tips should get to the point of being even with one another.

It's not by accident that the outside turning ski is called the "stance" ski in a specific teaching method. Think about what that word defines and you'll gain insight into why the primary focus is on the movements of the inside ski

To change your movement pattern and accomplish "down unweighting" requires lots and lots of flexing. It's flex-to-release, flex-to-match, and flex-to-engage. You have to stop "pushing" on your skis and develop a feel for the "edge purchase" you will gain by not trying to muscle the skis around and forcefully twisting them. When you actually start using flexion to your advantage, you'll find that these movements take optimum advantage of the current ski designs. You will really be able to use the ski as intended.

Mod edit: removed proprietary teaching method

 

[JESinstr]

To @Chris V. @Noodler and op @CpRMtSkiSkool92 re your posts above.

I submit for you enjoyment and consideration a short clip of some guy named Ligety having some fun warming up. Put it in slow mo and see how he transitions using ILE (Inside Leg Extension). Some may observe that he is extending but he is more importantly, moving forward to realign with his new outside ski. IMO this is how the design of the ski gets maximized. Notice how effortlessly and high up he begins to carve. Notice the alignment of his upper body with direction of travel and yes, his commitment to his outside ski throughout. Also, Chris notice how Ligety gets vertical separation without tip diversion.

Can you find a vid of Ted doing retraction turns? I am sure you can, but that is a tactical decision.

 

[Chris V.]

I submit for you enjoyment and consideration a short clip of some guy named Ligety having some fun warming up. Put it in slow mo and see how he transitions using ILE (Inside Leg Extension). Some may observe that he is extending but he is more importantly, moving forward to realign with his new outside ski. IMO this is how the design of the ski gets maximized. Notice how effortlessly and high up he begins to carve. Notice the alignment of his upper body with direction of travel and yes, his commitment to his outside ski throughout. Also, Chris notice how Ligety gets vertical separation without tip diversion.

Yeah, he can ski a little bit. Thank you, he's educational to watch. :-D

I'm not saying there's not more than one way to skin a cat. Notably, Ligety's old inside leg extension is far more subtle than you'll see with many skiers. He only reaches his maximum extension somewhat into the initiation phase. The choice of transition technique should depend a lot on what one is ultimately looking to accomplish. One thing you might see from some WC skiers is the use of an extension move only or more strongly in the flatter parts of a race course. Pushing off the hill can give a speed boost in that situation.

Are all skiers seeking maximum speed at all times?

I would think that tip divergence in the initiation phase would be needed only if one's skis at transition were not far enough apart to support the vertical separation desired later in the turn.

 

[Noodler]

Agreed ^^^^^^^^^^^.

Just because there's more than one way to "skin the cat" doesn't necessarily mean they're all equally efficient/optimal.

This is a thread from the OP that requests advice on changing to a flexion based release. Pointing out that you can also release from a push off/extension is kind of... pointless, isn't it?

 

[François Pugh]

Intent is important. Why do you want to unweight? Unweighting (up or down) in order to have some weighting in the bank, so to speak, to spend at the ideal point in the turn is one thing; unweighting in order to have your edges released and not locked into a pure carve so you can pivot them is something completely different.

 

[Chris V.]

Just because there's more than one way to "skin the cat" doesn't necessarily mean they're all equally efficient/optimal.

I have to admit that Ligety found a very efficient way to make the turns he was doing in the clip.

 

[Average Joe]

Thankfully the 35 meter GS that the FIS mandated in that era are gone, Ligety was the best to change his style to best exploit this ski with a 1970’s sidecut.
I’d be looking at Hircher, Pintrault, or Shiffrin freeski videos on SL skis instead of a Ligety GS video on 2012-16 skis. Just sayin.

 

[martyg]

Cp - trying to diagnose what is going on and providing an action plan in an on-line forum group is less than effective.

A few thoughts:

- First I'd look to a skilled coach who can assess your range of motion to insure that you have the ability to move like you want to. It will require flexibility in hips / lumbar.

- That same coach can give you dry land drills that you can do in front of the TV to help hone those movement patterns. Don't wait until you get on snow.

- Deliberate practice and video analysis with an instructor / coach.

- Purposeful practice by yourself. If you have the ability, 5X per week for a few hours, on snow, doing prescribed drills. Stay on flat terrain for a few seasons. test on more advanced terrain. If you feel the old movement patterns creep back in it is time to go back to easy terrain. Yeah, I know. Most people want the results, without the hard work.

- Finally, it sounds like you have never embraced the necessity / efficiency of focusing on transition. You go from turn to turn. My guess is that if we put load sensors on you and / or video your turns would be a series of Z's down the hill. It sounds like you are slamming on the outside ski from turn to turn, and not letting the new inside ski initiate the turn.

- To the above point, this video of Mikaela is amazing. Why is she so smooth? Lots of reasons, but to your application she is skiing from her feet, and owning the transition. Even in slalom, watch at the end of the video - she is perfectly weighted on both skis in a moment of transition. Ultimately, I think that you are missing that phase. Own the transition. Own the next turn. Blow the transition and the next turn will likely be a shit show.

Hit me up if you get to SW CO. I'd be happy to work with you for am AM.

 

[Henry]

...IMO this is because a focus on tipping the inside ski (vs softening then active shortening to build edge angels via angulation) encourages the movement of mass over the new inside ski in the form of inclination. Now, can tipping the inside ski first make it easier to initiate a turn? Shure but at what cost?

If not done right and without the proper pre req skill set, most will end up with a bias to their heels and begin unneeded counter because the inside ski is engaging and moving excessively out in front of the outside ski. That is why there is a lot of talk on pulling your inside foot back but the reality is the inside foot should start and remain underneath and if you have to pull it back, something is wrong to begin with.

Doesn't actually work that way.
--A good test while in a turn and inverting the inside foot (tipping the big toe edge up) is to momentarily tap the inside ski tail up & back down to the snow. If it can be tapped, the angulation is sufficient--no inclination.
--There is no such thing as unneeded counter. (Some will disagree.) Counter to the max, as far as one's joints will allow, from the beginning of the new turn all the way through the transition to the new edges, then counter fully the other way. This takes all the rotation range out of the hip joints. Steering and rotation are never used with this technique. Counter also facilitates angulation. Counter by pushing the inside hip & shoulder forward while pulling the inside foot back.
--Pulling the inside foot fully back impels the body forward. It's an easy way to get forward. Try it..it's like turning on power steering for your skiing. We agree, the inside foot needs to be underneath the body. Look at photos of racers, and you'll see that their inside foot is near their outside knee. We know that putting weight on the tails of the skis is poor technique. We don't always agree on how much weight to put on the inside ski. Whatever weight it carries, if the inside ski is forward that weight is on the tail of that ski. Not good for ski performance.

 

[martyg]

Doesn't actually work that way.
--A good test while in a turn and inverting the inside foot (tipping the big toe edge up) is to momentarily tap the inside ski tail up & back down to the snow. If it can be tapped, the angulation is sufficient--no inclination.
--There is no such thing as unneeded counter. (Some will disagree.) Counter to the max, as far as one's joints will allow, from the beginning of the new turn all the way through the transition to the new edges, then counter fully the other way. This takes all the rotation range out of the hip joints. Steering and rotation are never used with this technique. Counter also facilitates angulation. Counter by pushing the inside hip & shoulder forward while pulling the inside foot back.
--Pulling the inside foot fully back impels the body forward. It's an easy way to get forward. Try it..it's like turning on power steering for your skiing. We agree, the inside foot needs to be underneath the body. Look at photos of racers, and you'll see that their inside foot is near their outside knee. We know that putting weight on the tails of the skis is poor technique. We don't always agree on how much weight to put on the inside ski. Whatever weight it carries, if the inside ski is forward that weight is on the tail of that ski. Not good for ski performance.

As several national team coaches told me re how much weight on the outside ski: Just enough to bend it.

 

[HDSkiing]

Hey Karl, damn nice of you to offer!

I’m in SE Michigan (Oakland county). Local hill with my race league is Alpine Valley.

I teach at Pine Knob and coach the Lake Orion Ski Team. Once we have some snow, come over to PK and I can take some runs with you on a Saturday or Sunday to get you on the right track.

Karl

Fellow Michiganders! Although I‘ve lived in Northern New Mexico since 1982 I grew up on the slopes of Mt. Brighton, Pine Knob, Alpine Valley etc. raced with Blizzard ski club, and HS circuits before discovering the steeps of Taos and the fluffy powdery snow of a high altitude arid climate.

I kinda can relate to the OP. After leaving college and also doing some corporate cup racing I fell onto recreational skiing, keeping for the most part my old school roots learned in the late 1960’s and 70’s. Back then, as you know it was all about the outside ski and weighting unweighting was part of the lexicon.

A number of years ago when I semi retired I began teaching skiing full time, going through the PSIA Instructor Development Pathway (currently working toward Level 3). While I knew a lot about skiing and a fair bit about running Gates I remained solidly an “old schooler.” Going through the certs process brought me up to date, something to consider if you have the time or want to teach again.

Being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century wasn’t too bad though. It did help that I still skied 30-50 days during most Seasons and even eventually got those new-fangled shaped skis so I didn’t have any seasons away as you did.

Without seeing you ski it’s hard to offer anything specific . As has been given, getting face to face first hand instruction is solid advice, particularly if you can find someone who has had to morph those old skills with newer ones.

Having been on both sides of it will make you a better skier. The fact that you are open to contemporary skiing is a great first start and will serve you well in the long run with your goals.

Best of luck!

 

[markojp]

PSIA instructional approach to initiation
--PSIA's most recent Alpine Technical Manual (published in 2014, I think) promotes extending the new outside leg to move the CoM over the skis and to edge them, while working the new inside ski to match.
--This is an extension release. I've confirmed this by reading and re-reading the instructional section at the back of the manual.
--And of course, given its publication date, the manual assumes one is skiing on contemporary skis.
--Not every PSIA instructor teaches this approach to initiation, but it certainly infuses the culture and many instructors grew up on straight skis and use a modernized version of extension to start every turn.

IMHO, it doesn't matter, nor is it intended. PSIA in my experience is about versatility. Intent and outcome dictates tactics. You can teach or train for either. You may be asked to show both in a L3 or DCL trial.

If PSIA is all about extention, then why are we watching Jon Ballou?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@markojp, excellent question. We watch Ballou because his skiing is beautiful.

I affirm versatility. My issue is with the manual. Why did they write it the way they did? Probably no one reads it closely. Everything is carried forward through word-of-mouth and clinics anyway, right?

But the manual stands for something, and they had the opportunity with that manual to describe both initiations. Or even more. The only place they describe flexing for initiation in the manual's instructional section is for hockey stops.

 

[Karl B]

@markojp, excellent question. I affirm versatility. My issue is with the manual. Why did they write it the way they did?
Probably no one reads it closely. Everything is carried forward through word-of-mouth and clinics anyway, right?

But the manual stands for something, and they had the opportunity with that manual to describe both initiations. The only place they describe flexing for initiation is hockey stops.

LF,

The manual was released in 2014. That means that it was probably written in 2012 and edited in 2013. At that time, Extend to Release was the current rage within the PSIA ranks. Flex to Release became the hot topic in the last three to four years. What I find amusing is that the moves have been there for years. They used to be called Crossover (Extend to Release) and Crossunder (Flex to Release).

Karl

 

[LiquidFeet]

Karl,
Good points. I hadn't thought that what might have been written in 2012 would be carried over into the new manual, published two years later. If you're right, then when they proof-read it they had the chance to include flexion stuff but didn't. Lazy? Didn't care? Figured no one would ever read it? Rushed? Under-resourced?

And yes, I remember all the extend-to-release verbiage. It was indeed everywhere.

 

[mdf]

Crossover ... Crossunder

I still like those names better. Succinct and memorable.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I do too. I wonder why do words that work go out of favor.

 

[Mike King]

If PSIA is all about extention, then why are we watching Jon Ballou?

or virtually any other member of the demo team?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Mike King, if PSIA is not "all about extension," why is it embedded in all the descriptions of how to teach turns in the back of the current PSIA Alpine Technical Manual?

In every turn description the new inside leg/ski is taxed with keeping up with and/or coordinating with and/or matching what's happening with the new outside ski. The outside leg and ski is the dominant focus in all the initiations, whether stated directly or implied.

All the described instruction is to do something with the new outside leg/ski first and foremost. The manual when describing basic parallel turns (and all turns beyond this) explicitly says to extend the leg to push the CoM over the skis into the new turn and thusly to edge the skis, while working the new inside ski and its leg to keep it matched to what the outside ski is doing.

This is, in essence, the description of how to initiate an extension turn, aka an extend-to-release turn, aka a cross-over turn.

My beef is with the manual promoting one kind of initiation and one only. If they had chosen to promote flexion as a second more advanced way to teach initiation, they'd maybe need to admit there's something different between wedge turns and advanced turns.

If they had chosen to promote two ways to initiate turns, then teaching both at the wedge and wedge christie stage would need to be addressed, which most likely would have caused trouble and confusion in the ranks.