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Seldomski

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If PSIA is not all about extension, why is it embedded in all the descriptions of how to teach turns in the back of the current PSIA Alpine Technical Manual?

I think the extend to release gets embedded in this drill, starting at 43 seconds:


In the weight transfer, you can see that he is not flexing to relieve weight off the old outside ski. He is standing on the old inside ski to lift the old outside ski. This drill is to teach balance on the outside ski, but I think if you focus on this too much you end up embedding an extend to release transition. This is something I am currently working on to unlearn -- basically how to transfer weight to the new outside without standing on that ski.
 

Henry

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I submit for you enjoyment and consideration a short clip of some guy named Ligety having some fun warming up. Put it in slow mo and see how he transitions using ILE (Inside Leg Extension).
I think a more accurate clue is whether the outside knee flexes or extends to release and end the turn. In the video Ted flexes the outside knee just slightly, but certainly no extension of that leg. The body moves up to allow the legs to move under it.

Here's a great video of Ted explaining his skiing. Note the snow motion part at about 1 minute. https://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/olympics/100000002705897/on-giant-slalom-ted-ligety.html

About PSIA publications...one thing I've found very frustrating with them is that they fail to list the sections that have been replaced. Any good technical pub will bring out updates with the sections to be deleted and list the sections to be inserted with the updates. I've skied with old Full Cert guys who ski and teach the way they were trained many years ago. They've never been trained in the technique updates, and likely completely unaware of the updates. The ski area should train the updates with clinics showing, "delete this movement and add that one," but I haven't seen it happen.
 

Chris V.

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@Mike King, if PSIA is not "all about extension," why is it embedded in all the descriptions of how to teach turns in the back of the current PSIA Alpine Technical Manual?

In every turn description the new inside leg/ski is taxed with keeping up with and/or coordinating with and/or matching what's happening with the new outside ski. The outside leg and ski is the dominant focus.

Instruction is to do something with the new outside leg/ski first and foremost. The book explicitly says to extend the leg to push the CoM over the skis into the new turn and thusly to edge the skis, while working the new inside ski and its leg to keep it matched to what the outside ski is doing.

This is in essence the description of how to initiate an extension turn, aka an extend-to-release turn, a cross-over turn.

My beef is with the manual promoting one kind of initiation and one only. If they had chosen to promote flexion as a second more advanced way to teach initiation, they'd need to admit there's something different between wedge turns and advanced turns.

If they had chosen to promote two ways to initiate turns, then teaching both at the wedge and wedge christie stage would need to be addressed, which most likely would have caused trouble in the ranks.

Thread drift isn't a bad thing. Really, these threads exist mostly so we can have wide-ranging discussions, which may lead in unpredictable directions.

The subject of the current PSIA system, or lack thereof, is a thing that some of us have debated in past threads. Taking the Alpine Technical Manual as a jumping-off point, in my opinion its statements about turn transition techniques are wishy-washy. Extend the new outside leg a little, flex the new inside leg a little. A person could apply that advice in many ways. There's a big spectrum of styles between the extremes of full retraction and full extension.

The ATM has dual purposes. First, to describe the elements of good skiing. To that end, the ATM breaks skiing down into fundamental elements. It accurately explains how these elements can be combined to create good skiing--but doesn't say much about precisely what the mix should be in various situations. This allows for individual stylistic choices. Not all great skiers ski exactly the same way. The second purpose of the ATM is to be a guide for creating learning pathways. Here is where it could be considered weak, but that isn't a weakness unique to the one publication.

Recognize that instructors don't obtain direction on crafting lesson plans and learning pathway strategies exclusively, or even primarily, from the ATM. Anyway, it's little more than an executive summary of technique. If it went into sustantial detail of the array of technique options available in a variety of situations, it could easily be twice as many pages. A greater focus on MOVEMENTS, rather than just the basic skills (BREP) would fill a lot of space. There are other complementary publications, of course. But the main source of guidance that instructors receive is through formal and informal training from their resort staff, and in PSIA educational events.

It has been my experience that these training channels do not promote any single, consistent learning progression. Instead, they give individual instructors a lot of leeway to fashion their own lesson plans, perhaps following their individual opinions as to what is most effective.

The benefit of this is that it serves the PSIA's declared student-centered teaching model. Instructors are able to take students as they find them, build on their existing strengths, whatever they may be, and respond directly to students' lesson goals, which might be a specific technique focus, or might be ability to ski particular terrain or snow conditions.

The down side is that this doesn't furnish any solid framework for delivering lessons that are consistent with one another, and that furnish students a rational progression toward high level skills, over a sequence of lessons that may be widely separated in time and take place at different resorts.

I absolutely agree that fundamental diversity is a great objective. Achieving this will give a skier the tools to reach competence and excellence in a variety of situations--be it recreational groomer skiing, a race course, natural moguls, steeps, "crud," or on and on.

BUT--the plain fact is that 99.9% of ski school students come to lessons skiing somewhere between the first timer and lower advanced level. So, my opinion, wouldn't it make sense for ski schools to focus on initially teaching these students ONE style, that they can practice consistently, in which they can have consistent lessons, and that they can master before moving on and confusing themselves with big stylistic variations? Building good movement patterns takes a lot of repetition. A LOT. Shouldn't the way ski schools are organized promote this?

Also, elephant in the room, as others have recently said, the technique of a lot of instructors ain't that strong. I'm no Jonathan Ballou, I'll say right up front. So wouldn't those instructors also benefit from being trained in a single, consistent style? And from learning how most effectively to teach that style? (And it could be that a few of the TRAINERS out there aren't quite the hot stuff they think they are!)



For PSIA to become more focused on a consistent lesson framework would no doubt require a knock-down, drag-out fight between some strong personalities with sharply differing views. As recent discussions here have demonstrated, there is no universal consensus among knowledgeable ski industry veterans and excellent skiers as to the optimal baseline technique.

Ideally, I think room should be made for competing schools. Each could then adopt its own teaching model. Students could make their own choices of school and teaching model. In most industries, competition promotes excellence and value.

The current scenario of resorts having local monopolies on teaching doesn't promote this. On the other hand, there's no reason that every ski hill should be beholden to the PSIA to handle certification and prescribe teaching theory. It's kind of the lazy way out.

//RANT//
 
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Scruffy

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...
What I find amusing is that the moves have been there for years. They used to be called Crossover (Extend to Release) and Crossunder (Flex to Release).
...
Karl

I was going to stay out of this thread, but damn you Karl :D You roped me in. I was going to mention Crossover/Under the other day, but there had been terminology wars in the past about this subject in both Epic and this Forum, so I kept quiet. But, I agree with Karl.

Crossover is still a valid transition approach for long GS style turns, esp. in racing, but also recreational skiing too and should not be considered out of fashion. Crossover has nothing to do with the OPers problem of coming back into skiing with 1970's skills--two different animals altogether.

I'll just leave this here: http://youcanski.com/en/modern-alpine-racing-technique#Section5
see section on Crossover/under working in concert, and Down un-weighting




...

I absolutely agree that fundamental diversity is a great objective. Achieving this will give a skier the tools to reach competence and excellence in a variety of situations--be it recreational groomer skiing, a race course, natural moguls, steeps, "crud," or on and on.

BUT--the plain fact is that 99.9% of ski school students come to lessons skiing somewhere between the first timer and lower advanced level. So, my opinion, wouldn't it make sense for ski schools to focus on initially teaching these students ONE style, that they can practice consistently, in which they can have consistent lessons, and that they can master before moving on and confusing themselves with big stylistic variations? Building good movement patterns takes a lot of repetition. A LOT. Shouldn't the way ski schools are organized promote this?...

I see where you're going, but disagree fundamentally. It would be like teaching sailing and only teaching the tack and leaving out the jibe. PSIA has problems with their "real management", the ski resorts that hire them--the fundamentals of the arrangement suck for everyone except the ski resorts ( with exception of maybe Aspen as the standout). The instructors and students get short changed with the current model. As it is now, there are only a minority of students that make a career out of learning to ski through formal ski instruction, and that's a shame. This needs to be fixed, if at all possible, and it would be a win-win for everyone, including the ski resorts. What would be ideal: laying out a long term lesson plan after student evaluation, and not attempting to teach everything within one or two lessons. Both forms of transition could be focused on separately, but in depth, if the student viewed ski school as affordable and worth their time to pursue long term.

Regardless of the student, PSIA also teaches their own, so focusing only on just flex to release would short change those instructors.
 

martyg

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Attend this clinic: https://members.psia-rm.org/civicrm/event/info?id=4106&reset=1

Screen-Shot-2019-10-18-at-4-23-17-PM.png
 

markojp

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Thread drift isn't a bad thing. Really, these threads exist mostly so we can have wide-ranging discussions, which may lead in unpredictable directions.

The subject of the current PSIA system, or lack thereof, is a thing that some of us have debated in past threads. Taking the Alpine Technical Manual as a jumping-off point, in my opinion its statements about turn transition techniques are wishy-washy. Extend the new outside leg a little, flex the new inside leg a little. A person could apply that advice in many ways. There's a big spectrum of styles between the extremes of full retraction and full extension.

The ATM has dual purposes. First, to describe the elements of good skiing. To that end, the ATM breaks skiing down into fundamental elements. It accurately explains how these elements can be combined to create good skiing--but doesn't say much about precisely what the mix should be in various situations. This allows for individual stylistic choices. Not all great skiers ski exactly the same way. The second purpose of the ATM is to be a guide for creating learning pathways. Here is where it could be considered weak, but that isn't a weakness unique to the one publication.

Recognize that instructors don't obtain direction on crafting lesson plans and learning pathway strategies exclusively, or even primarily, from the ATM. Anyway, it's little more than an executive summary of technique. If it went into sustantial detail of the array of technique options available in a variety of situations, it could easily be twice as many pages. A greater focus on MOVEMENTS, rather than just the basic skills (BREP) would fill a lot of space. There are other complementary publications, of course. But the main source of guidance that instructors receive is through formal and informal training from their resort staff, and in PSIA educational events.

It has been my experience that these training channels do not promote any single, consistent learning progression. Instead, they give individual instructors a lot of leeway to fashion their own lesson plans, perhaps following their individual opinions as to what is most effective.

The benefit of this is that it serves the PSIA's declared student-centered teaching model. Instructors are able to take students as they find them, build on their existing strengths, whatever they may be, and respond directly to students' lesson goals, which might be a specific technique focus, or might be ability to ski particular terrain or snow conditions.

The down side is that this doesn't furnish any solid framework for delivering lessons that are consistent with one another, and that furnish students a rational progression toward high level skills, over a sequence of lessons that may be widely separated in time and take place at different resorts.

I absolutely agree that fundamental diversity is a great objective. Achieving this will give a skier the tools to reach competence and excellence in a variety of situations--be it recreational groomer skiing, a race course, natural moguls, steeps, "crud," or on and on.

BUT--the plain fact is that 99.9% of ski school students come to lessons skiing somewhere between the first timer and lower advanced level. So, my opinion, wouldn't it make sense for ski schools to focus on initially teaching these students ONE style, that they can practice consistently, in which they can have consistent lessons, and that they can master before moving on and confusing themselves with big stylistic variations? Building good movement patterns takes a lot of repetition. A LOT. Shouldn't the way ski schools are organized promote this?

Also, elephant in the room, as others have recently said, the technique of a lot of instructors ain't that strong. I'm no Jonathan Ballou, I'll say right up front. So wouldn't those instructors also benefit from being trained in a single, consistent style? And from learning how most effectively to teach that style? (And it could be that a few of the TRAINERS out there aren't quite the hot stuff they think they are!)


For PSIA to become more focused on a consistent lesson framework would no doubt require a knock-down, drag-out fight between some strong personalities with sharply differing views. As recent discussions here have demonstrated, there is no universal consensus among knowledgeable ski industry veterans and excellent skiers as to the optimal baseline technique.

Ideally, I think room should be made for competing schools. Each could then adopt its own teaching model. Students could make their own choices of school and teaching model. In most industries, competition promotes excellence and value.

The current scenario of resorts having local monopolies on teaching doesn't promote this. On the other hand, there's no reason that every ski hill should be beholden to the PSIA to handle certification and prescribe teaching theory. It's kind of the lazy way out.

//RANT//

So am I going to teach the first time skier major jr. hockey player the same as a guy who's been sitting at a screen coding since age 13? Or a teenager who's on the spectrum? Probably not. This is where strict progressions fail miserably.
 
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Chris V.

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I see where you're going, but disagree fundamentally. ...

Liked, despite our disagreement.

The suggestion of developing individualized long-term lesson plans, that would be portable between instructors and between schools, is excellent.

Note that for purposes of my message, AKA rant, I wasn't even taking a position on where PSIA should come down on the whole flex vs. extend, narrow vs. wide stance thing.
 
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Karl B

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I'll let you know how it goes if he takes advantage of my offer. As the crow flies, his home resort is only about 8 miles from the resort I coach at.

Karl
 

Tricia

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@CpRMtSkiSkool92 has contacted me and explained that he was pulled away for a family emergency. I am unlocking the thread, but all "proprietary teaching system" comments and links have been removed.

Sorry folks, but lets not make this a PSA billboard for HH and his program.
And lets not attack members, new or old.

In my mom voice: Don't make me lock this thread again.
 
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CpRMtSkiSkool92

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Thank you to the moderators and everyone who has provided constructive feedback on this topic. Tricia has brought to my attention that in the attempt to use current instructional language in my search for assistance, I may have used terms that are specific to a teaching system or method of instruction that are apparently hot topics here. I am hopefully aware of that now and will not make that mistake again if I continue to participate & contribute to this forum.

Thank you to Karl and a few others that have messaged me with extremely helpful feedback. Hopefully I will meet with Karl this season to get some in-person analysis of where my technique is and what I need to focus on. He has my contact info and I know where to find him. I may have also found a master's race clinic in the area that could be helpful if I can attend.

Below is a summary of the feedback I provided to Tricia and a few members that questioned my original intent. Hopefully it provides some context to events that expired this week and my experience in general. I have removed any reference to specific members and hopefully any of my own personal information so as not to create any additional drama or flamebait. If this thread takes I turn again I expect it will be locked, I've been a long standing member of several off-road enthusiast forums that unfortunately suffer from the same issue from time to time:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I tried to reply to the up-unweighting/down-unweighting thread today and saw that it had been locked. For some reason it seems some of the statements I made and the fact I hadn't responded in 5 days that I was trolling?

I saw the post that summarized my participation and wanted to provide more context as none if it seems out of the ordinary to me, but on an internet forum anything can be taken out of context.

As to why I haven't responded in 5 days, my father has been hospitalized all week so checking in to this forum was not a priority unfortunately.

As I stated in the thread I did not teach my daughter to snowboard last season beyond the first few days prior to thanks giving early season. I turned her over to private instruction as I also stated I'm an intermediate at best at snowboarding and I'm more than happy to leave her progression on a snowboard to the experts.

I'm not sure why the equipment posts lend to trolling but to my own dismay I've always been a bit of an equipment monger even when I was in peak form. I started the season in November on the X9s and skied them solely through late February when I found a late season deal on the FIS SLs. I had always skied a slalom race ski historically but I didn't want to commit to that level of equipment until I knew my form and physical strength was up to it (90s era 'heel pushing' technique notwithstanding). During the course of the season I tried both the head raptors and the Mach 1 LVs. I only skied the tecnicas a few times, mostly due to my past loyalty to the brand. I didn't care for them, I don't know if it's the 'progressive' flex or the 98mm last, but my feet seemed to swim in them a bit, and I seemed to be able the flex them way to easily even in the cold. I stuck with the Raptors the majority of the seson from November to late March.

The 1 second off the SL time may make more sense in this context. Our race league is 8 races, 4 GS, 4 slalom, so that 1 second combined time is between the best and worst of those 4. Also consider that my times werent't that great to begin with...the top kids were runnining high 17, low 18s in the slalom, my best combined time was in the mid 21s, and that's one of 4 SL races, most in the 22 to 23 second individual run times.

That last race I also made a cardinal error of 'throwing to many variables' into the mix to know what may have improved my time. It was the only race I ran on the FIS SL skis, and I had just put the second rivot in the spine of those Raptor 140s. Being a 'heel pusher' as mdf put it that may not be a good move as it only allowed me to leverage the tail of the ski more, but time will tell on that one.

I hope this ads more context to the subject, I still fail to see where it was trolling and if I can't be a part of this community that's unfortunate. If there were something to apologize for I would, but hopefully I can hook up with Karl and he can give me some direction.

I saw some folks were even saying I had 70's era technique, I was born in 71 and stopped skiing in 93 as I stated, but people see what they want to see on an internet forum.
 
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Scruffy

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@CpRMtSkiSkool92 I hope you continue to participate in this community. Don't let this little hiccup dissuade you, we are really a welcoming friendly group. And if you ski with people from here, you'll see that. You'll learn a lot if you stick around. These ski school threads always go a little sideways IMO, and it's hard to understand where someone is coming from by a quick post. Face to face you can read people more, or ask questions to clarify. We sometimes get a little crazy this time of year Jonesing for snow.
 

François Pugh

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Welcome to the site. I hope you managed to read all the replies before they got deleted.

I'm not the one who called troll, but I can understand why someone might think it. I did find it strange that someone who was a competitive high school racer could now be a middle of the back of the pack racer and a heel-pusher; I would have thought a competitive racer would have figured out how skis worked and still be good at carving around race gates. Modern side cuts make it easier, not harder. However, I did not race in high school, so I could be overestimating the competition.

Do take up the offer for assistance; there is nothing like one-on-one help from someone who knows what he's doing to help with improvement.
 

Brian Finch

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Not to excessively drift, but looking at your gear may be in order. As skis get more responsive & boots increasingly laterally rigid & supple fore/aft, the technique will become less muscled (or that’s just what I keep telling myself).
 

JESinstr

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I think a more accurate clue is whether the outside knee flexes or extends to release and end the turn. In the video Ted flexes the outside knee just slightly, but certainly no extension of that leg. The body moves up to allow the legs to move under it.

Here's a great video of Ted explaining his skiing. Note the snow motion part at about 1 minute. https://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/olympics/100000002705897/on-giant-slalom-ted-ligety.html

You are cherry picking Henry.... Go to 1:38 and the side by side with Bode. Ted is clearly using ILE in this instance. The outside ski is not released by any flexing or extension. It is released by a forward move to the new outside ski.

IMO, ILE provides a more complete end to end carving state. But Racing and many recreational situations require redirection that end to end carving can not accomplish ergo retraction transitions. Perfectly valid and a mainstay in modern skiing. The only right or wrong is in the results of the chosen transition.

There are few greater feelings than experiencing an end to end carve on a pristine groomer......on the other hand, (although I do not have a racing background) It probably feels pretty great stepping up on the winner's podium.
 

geepers

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Here's a great video of Ted explaining his skiing. Note the snow motion part at about 1 minute. https://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/olympics/100000002705897/on-giant-slalom-ted-ligety.html

That's interesting commentary from Ligerty. (2:35 "I'm just pushing off that ski as hard as I can." 2:57 "...pushing as hard as you can in every turn 'cause that's how you get speed out of the turn")

I thought pushing on the ski was not good. Is this just not well expressed?
 
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CpRMtSkiSkool92

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Welcome to the site. I hope you managed to read all the replies before they got deleted.

I'm not the one who called troll, but I can understand why someone might think it. I did find it strange that someone who was a competitive high school racer could now be a middle of the back of the pack racer and a heel-pusher; I would have thought a competitive racer would have figured out how skis worked and still be good at carving around race gates. Modern side cuts make it easier, not harder. However, I did not race in high school, so I could be overestimating the competition.

Do take up the offer for assistance; there is nothing like one-on-one help from someone who knows what he's doing to help with improvement.

I actually thought I did pretty well considering the extended layoff and the first time since I was 14 on a ski shorter than 203cm, and considering most of of the racers ahead of me never skied on non-shaped skis, I guess it's not just me that's being hard on myself! :facepalm:

Given a few more seasons I may have made a natural transition myself, most of the feedback I've received so far in PM on this forum seems to indicate it may take a few years of dedicated work under the proper instruction or at least applying the right fundamentals. I'm not sure what those are at this point and I'm not going to make that mistake again based on the way this thread went sideways, but Karl has offered his assistance which is really stand-up of him, and I may have options for master's (old timer) racing instruction at a resort that isn't so far it's not an easy weekend drive. At 48 I'm not that old, but I'm not the same guy I was at the peak of my skiing at 23 before hanging up the boards for family and career, and rather than waste time rolling the dice with any local instructor, I sought out advice here.

I got that and then some! Thanks to everyone for trying to keep it constructive, I've got more than a few excellent leads on how to proceed from here. :beercheer:
 

mdf

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I thought pushing on the ski was not good. Is this just not well expressed?

I suspect pushing is a no-no because it is so easy to do it wrong. Ligity is probably pushing on the whole ski while keeping his edge engaged. Very different from the typical intermediate pushing his ski out from under himself and into a skid.
 
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CpRMtSkiSkool92

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BTW @Jilly you were right, those old ‘long’ boards collecting dust in my basement are 7s. I think the last year or two of the 7s in the early 90s shares the same graphics the 9s had shortly after

Im a little nervous about continuing to pull them out on occasion as they’ll probably reinforce bad habits. Maybe after a few years of applying a proper modern technique I can pull them out again just for fun.
 

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mdf

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Maybe after a few years of applying a proper modern technique I can pull them out again just for fun.
When I pulled my old KVC's out, I found I could carve a turn on them, which I could never do back in the day. I still "caught an edge" on them, which is a failure mode I had forgotten about.
 
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CpRMtSkiSkool92

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When I pulled my old KVC's out, I found I could carve a turn on them, which I could never do back in the day. I still "caught an edge" on them, which is a failure mode I had forgotten about.

It will be interesting mdf. Maybe if I get out will Karl we can figure out a good way to get some video, I'm guessing a modern cell phone isn't going to cut it for instructional purposes.

I always felt I was a strong carver, I always skied extermely icy conditions, but I also felt that most of the edge pressure was from under the foot towards the tail. That probably doesn't match what the modern definition of a proper carve is based on what I've been reading here and from the videos members have shared with me.

I can only speculate between what I'm feeling and what's actually happening without another set of eyes or proper video though, hopefully I can get that expert opinion earlier rather than later this season. Like Karl told me, think snow!!!
 
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