Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

[Scruffy]

When people talk about knee angulation, they don't talk about 6 degrees. If you look at pictures, it's a lot more, and it had nothing to do with what you're describing

Well, obviously you didn't get what I was saying with respect the the use of the term in the skiing vernacular. Anyway, no worries. Let's just all ski the way we want to. If you don't like the term, don't use it, but it's here to stay, so no sense in losing any sleep over it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Will we ski better with toenails painted red?

Those toenails bother you?

 

[geepers]

Those toenails bother you?

Not a bother - just searching for anything to improve skiing. I'd paint 'em the colors of Switzerland or Norway if it would help. But suspect it will have to be the usual method: coaching n drills....

 

[François Pugh]

Will we ski better with toenails painted red?

If by better, you mean faster, then yes.

 

[HardDaysNight]

He's a .01 percent athlete, we're not. If you don't understand lifting the foot inside the boot and what it can do for establishing cuff contact while moving your CoM about 2" forward, It'd be necessary to demo it on snow for you. Is cuff tension constant and static? No, but foot lifting (top of the foot to top of the boot) is a first step in getting us to feel the bottom of the boot through the arch, and that in turn helps us know what our skis are doing on the snow.

This is one of the most important things in high level skiing, and one of the most neglected in teaching. The movement @markojp is describing seats the heel properly in the boot pocket, correctly distributes pressure along the sole of the foot, facilitates tipping of the ski from the foot, and sets up the appropriate knee angles through the turn. As he points out, it positions the CoM properly, but not by leaning on the cuff like so many do when trying to get forward; this locks up the legs and results in clunky turns.

 

[James]

Very interesting pole drill. I haven't seen that one before. Looks like it encourages inside half lead very effectively.

He really rotates his upperbody in on left footed turns. So left arm and side go in. Hard to tell if it’s only the left side, or it’s camera bias.

This could go in the tip lead thread as well.

 

[LiquidFeet]

 

[Erik Timmerman]

She doesn’t outright say it at 3:30, but she is saying it.

 

[markojp]

She doesn’t outright say it at 3:30, but she is saying it.

( Another PNW gem! 2 actually! )

 

[JESinstr]

This is one of the most important things in high level skiing, and one of the most neglected in teaching. The movement @markojp is describing seats the heel properly in the boot pocket, correctly distributes pressure along the sole of the foot, facilitates tipping of the ski from the foot, and sets up the appropriate knee angles through the turn. As he points out, it positions the CoM properly, but not by leaning on the cuff like so many do when trying to get forward; this locks up the legs and results in clunky turns.

One Correction. This is one of the most important things in ALL skiing. Specifically at the beginner level, we are dealing with people whose dynamic balance methodology is based on (heel to toe) locomotion and that must be changed to a centered, through the arch methodology. This demands foot tension derived via dorsiflexion which most are unfamiliar with, both from a mental perspective and physical perspective.

It continues to amaze how few instructors spend time specifically developing this totally new dynamic requirement but instead keep sending their students down the slope hoping they will eventually "Get it" .

 

[James]

…correctly distributes pressure along the sole of the foot, facilitates tipping of the ski from the foot, and sets up the appropriate knee angles through the turn.

What foot and when are we talking?
How does keeping the foot lifted distribute pressure along the bottom?

The tendon from the TA attaches to the medial side of the foot. I can’t see how using that facilitates tipping your foot medially, pronating, when it supinates or inverts it.

 

[markojp]

One Correction. This is one of the most important things in ALL skiing. Specifically at the beginner level, we are dealing with people whose dynamic balance methodology is based on (heel to toe) locomotion and that must be changed to a centered, through the arch methodology. This demands foot tension derived via dorsiflexion which most are unfamiliar with, both from a mental perspective and physical perspective.

It continues to amaze how few instructors spend time specifically developing this totally new dynamic requirement but instead keep sending their students down the slope hoping they will eventually "Get it" .

Yup. This is something a colleague and I have brought to our ski school's instructor training. We're both in our second season now in our roles. Buy in has been much easier this season as it really makes teaching beginning youth and adult skiers a ton easier with better outcomes for both the instructor and guests. Kids, we do slightly different things, but look for similar outcomes.

My question for the season is this. Why do we accept as 'fact' that children move their CoM back when skiing because of big heads/high CoM when they don't do it walking, running, or standing? I don't know the answer, but am going to ponder and play with this. It's always good to revisit our assumptions.. that's where the profound stuff lurks.

 

[Chris V.]

My question for the season is this. Why do we accept as 'fact' that children move their CoM back when skiing because of big heads/high CoM when they don't do it walking, running, or standing? I don't know the answer, but am going to ponder and play with this. It's always good to revisit our assumptions.. that's where the profound stuff lurks.

It appears to be true for the youngest children, but at some point their brains may not have caught up with their bodies, they need encouragement to adopt more mature movements that they don't quite realize they're capable of. Look for the video of Tom Gellie's son Archie at 4 1/2 to see a child doing it right.

 

[markojp]

What foot and when are we talking?
How does keeping the foot lifted distribute pressure along the bottom?

The tendon from the TA attaches to the medial side of the foot. I can’t see how using that facilitates tipping your foot medially, pronating, when it supinates or inverts it.

Your confusing which muscles do what. The TA doesn't tip the foot. It connects you through the arch to the bottom of the boot which is the closest your body gets to your skis. This helps one learn where to stand in dynamic balance with much less effort. In training new instructors, we're using the word 'feet' rather than skis.

And again, per Karin H above, as skiing becomes dynamic skiing, ankles move, but the mechanisms to move them don't need to be large, but do need to be progressive in the context of the DIRT necessary for the outcome we're looking for.

I wish you could spend 2-3 hours on the hill with us so we could share what we're doing with you.

 

[markojp]

Look for the video of Tom Gellie's son Archie at 4 1/2 to see a child doing it right.

Yup. This vid has been shared in multiple emails with our staff.

 

[James]

My question for the season is this. Why do we accept as 'fact' that children move their CoM back when skiing because of big heads/high CoM when they don't do it walking, running, or standing? I don't know the answer, but am going to ponder and play with this. It's always good to revisit our assumptions.. that's where the profound stuff lurks.

Probably lack of front support in boots that are non supportive or too huge, coupled with skis where the bindings are mounted so far back. Forces them into wedge and controlling the tail. Might as well be back.

But maybe lack of sensing/control/power of plantar flexing also keeps them back because they lack the ability to stop themselves going forward towards their toes.

Even this 4 yr old kid is back-

 

[wnyskier]

My question for the season is this. Why do we accept as 'fact' that children move their CoM back when skiing because of big heads/high CoM when they don't do it walking, running, or standing? I don't know the answer, but am going to ponder and play with this. It's always good to revisit our assumptions.. that's where the profound stuff lurks.

Because their boots are crap. Many/most have a stiff upper cuff that is totally foreign to the child's (or anyone new to skiing) inherent movement pattern and balance. They can't find a natural balance point so end up hanging off the back of the boot.

Here's the solution:

The old Nordica Nordy. The lower shell extends up on the medial and lateral side of the ankle providing lateral support for edging while the upper is nothing more than neoprene and and elastic to keep the snow out. There is nothing to inhibit ankle flexion. The "power strap" simply keeps the boot from falling off. The result is the young athlete (as all kids naturally are) can flex their ankles freely to find a natural centered / balanced stance and cannot rely on a stiff rear cuff to compensate for an inability to flex the ankle.

 

[markojp]

Because their boots are crap. Many/most have a stiff upper cuff that is totally foreign to the child's (or anyone new to skiing) inherent movement pattern and balance. They can't find a natural balance point so end up hanging off the back of the boot.

Here's the solution:

View attachment 185839 View attachment 185840

The old Nordica Nordy. The lower shell extends up on the medial and lateral side of the ankle providing lateral support for edging while the upper is nothing more than neoprene and and elastic to keep the snow out. There is nothing to inhibit ankle flexion. The "power strap" simply keeps the boot from falling off. The result is the young athlete (as all kids naturally are) can flex their ankles freely to find a natural centered / balanced stance and cannot rely on a stiff rear cuff to compensate for an inability to flex the ankle.

I love the Nordy! Truly a shame it's no longer made. Elan has (had?) an intersection kids boot that bends well.

 

[chilehed]

This is going to become a theme in this response; you are doing a micro-tele turn there when you 'lighten the heel'. Nice drill, too bad your bindings won't let you go to the obvious conclusion .

Heh heh. I tried a tele rig recently, but my joints were yelling at me that I was fifteen years too late. Unfortunately I'm not at a place where I can risk the injuries I was envisioning, so I decided to wuss out.

 

[breck]

Heh heh. I tried a tele rig recently, but my joints were yelling at me that I was fifteen years too late. Unfortunately I'm not at a place where I can risk the injuries I was envisioning, so I decided to wuss out.

I'd say the earliest turns are the hardest in physical exhaustion and mental exhaustion. Depending on what your joints tell you, it might be worth further attempts--I think tele is easier on knees and hips, injury depending, because there is less jarring due to a broader range of motion.

And if you are concerned about fitness while having fun, tele hands down wins over alpine due to the enforced fitness regimen of a lunge each turn as you pray to the fall line.

Happy to help if I can. If you find yourself around Belleayre in the Catskills NY I'll be happy to loan you some gear that ought to maximize chance of success (Hammerhead bindings), I am not the greatest instructor however.