The upper-cert "gap"

[Jilly]

I was thinking that one too!

I know that most of the full time instructors at Tremblant are working every day. The L4's get the Summit Club, Ski/Ride Le Gap and upper level group lessons as well as the privates. Also a lot them work for the CSIA giving courses and exams.

I am constantly asked as I walk up to the Gondola if I would like to teach. I've been out of it too long now, but some day I'll get back into it.

 

[PTskier]

whatever is currently prescribed as “correct” by the CSIA. (I’m not sure if the PSIA is the same way, but the CSIA has been changing the methodology and some of the “proper” terminology every few years)

I experienced exactly this in the PSIA school I worked at a half-dozen years ago. New things were adopted for mysterious reasons, and old things were never officially rescinded. If you went to this year's division clinic you got the new stuff. If you only went to the clinic on your hill, you may hear about the new stuff, but maybe not. Older L3s were still teaching a variety of the old techniques, newer instructors got a hodge podge of stuff, and too little was about teaching. Some L3s were paid to give clinics, and some were dreadful--like the division guy who had an instructors' clinic do 2 hours of pivot slip & check turns with no individual instruction where needed, and nothing about how to best present this to a student. Some division staff gave clinics and presented techniques that neither made any sense nor worked well, but was all officially sanctioned as the newest gospel, again almost nothing about teaching. Level 3 testing was more of an elimination than than a competency exam. If one couldn't perform the athletic movements required, one couldn't pass. It wasn't much about teaching, too much about athleticism. Even L2 made no sense---it would never pay off. Pay was dismal. This was a fair sized area (200+ instructors), not a destination resort, mostly local, mostly weekenders. Most instructors were part time working mainly for the free season pass. The most galling part was the illegal requirement for unpaid meetings. Required meetings and clinics must be paid--that's state law.

I really like the idea of free lessons for first timers. Great way to build the sport.

 

[markojp]

I experienced exactly this in the PSIA school I worked at a half-dozen years ago. New things were adopted for mysterious reasons, and old things were never officially rescinded. If you went to this year's division clinic you got the new stuff. If you only went to the clinic on your hill, you may hear about the new stuff, but maybe not. Older L3s were still teaching a variety of the old techniques, newer instructors got a hodge podge of stuff, and too little was about teaching. Some L3s were paid to give clinics, and some were dreadful--like the division guy who had an instructors' clinic do 2 hours of pivot slip & check turns with no individual instruction where needed, and nothing about how to best present this to a student. Some division staff gave clinics and presented techniques that neither made any sense nor worked well, but was all officially sanctioned as the newest gospel, again almost nothing about teaching. Level 3 testing was more of an elimination than than a competency exam. If one couldn't perform the athletic movements required, one couldn't pass. It wasn't much about teaching, too much about athleticism. Even L2 made no sense---it would never pay off. Pay was dismal......

PT, clearly you've had some unfortunate experiences in PSIA NW. I've been in involved for only the past six seasons and have seen some great progress in the organization, the overall message, and even on hill policies. My first two seasons, yes, I think looking back many things were in transition. I might have almost agreed with you on the L3 exam, but in retrospect, I place the blame for my initial failure squarely on my own shoulders. .

Anyhow, I'd love to spend a morning out with you this season. Just free skiing is fine. Maybe we could get a handful of other Pug folks on the hill as well. FWIW, I'm by no means the proprietary product of PSIA and would love to ski with someone commited to different development paths. ( Yes, I rip things off from everyone!) The beauty of PSIA for me though, is I've always felt that orthodoxies can be challenged so long as you can articulate your thoughts verbally and 'do it' on the hill.

( and yes, L3 is about athleticism... and knowledge, and teaching. Diet, trips to gym, miles on the bike, doing what you need to do to prepare including more teaching time, seeking out and working with mentors that click, and figuring things out on your own when answers aren't as forthcoming as one would wish... even if it doesn't result in a pin. I know even when I failed in the past, I was still learning and improving. And of course I'll always thank the CSIA for their great youtube vids for PSIA L3 success! )

 

[4ster]

I think it would be interesting to post a series of polls on this topic.
Poll #1: Is teaching your only source of income?
Poll #2: What level are your ski instructor credentials?
Poll #3: How does your resort pay instructors based on credentials?
Poll #4: Are you planning on furthering your credentials as an instructor?

BTW, I think @Fair Wages may have a lot of semi current information on pay structures.

 

[stuckinphilly]

Can anyone break down the cost of PSIA EXAM/ Assessment?

I could but I really don't even want to know.

 

[stuckinphilly]

I can't recall exactly... in the PNW, it's a two day Sat/Sun exam + and optional Fri cruise around/orientation. ($235 260??). I also did a 'checkpoint' session a month before ($80?). It was held close enough to make it day tripping, but probably used a couple tanks of gas, bought a little food, and 2-3 beers on Sunday. Currently, our hill will reimburse the cost of the exam if you hire on the following season.

Maintaining cerification... PSIA membership. I go to most of the TD clinics (has to be approved by the SSD). They meet once a month Oct-April including a couple of divisional 2 and 3 day events and runs $260. These were great fun! I'm fortunate that the area also covered this cost. One could do a credit or two at a cost of roughly $85 to maintain certification as well. Honestly, the more you get into it, the more you get out of it all. I had a blast with PSIA last year even if work took some unexpected turns... not all unpleasant, but just different than anticipated. This season will be teaching/coaching, training, and probably 1 or 2 days of hill supervisor duty.
FWIW, our area wage is considerably more for each level of certification. Base for L3 full time is $30 per hour. Additional 'specialist' certs, experience, etc... gets you some bumps upward from there. Haven't had any issue with being 'too expensive'.

I have to say that you are not factoring opportunity costs. If I have to go to a clinic that is time during the season that I am potentially not making money. If the clinic is 2 days and is 6 hours away that is potentially 4 days of work. Unless I choose not to sleep that weekend, which is a poor decision from a safety perspective. That could be serious money an instructor is missing out on.

A good example of this is that I once had to leave a clinic on the second day. This was at my home mountain. I had a full day private lesson request from a family I had a good relationship with, also they took good care of me (Tips, meals out, Invited me to Christmas dinner one year). I was admonished by the clinician for my "lack of commitment" when I had to make a good business decision for myself. I didn't get the educational credit from the clinic so I forfeited that money. My hourly rate took care of most of the cost of the clinic but I had to take a chance on getting a tip to come out ahead.


I'm really glad your ski area management respects you enough that "too expensive" was not a problem. I never worked for a ski school with that mindset.

 

[stuckinphilly]

I also want to add I never expected to get rich being a Ski Instructor. I loved what I was doing, I loved watching the kids I taught year after year develop and become better skiers than me. I just couldn't let myself go bankrupt doing it.

 

[markojp]

Yes, you do loose teaching time doing clinics, but we're fortunate to have a number tp choose from spread over both the season and geographic region. The longest drive to a divisional event I attended was 3 hours one way with a couple nights at a friend's place. Bachelor is as far as I've travelled for anything PSIA, 6.5- 7 hours from Seattle. Would love to do something outside the division for fun. Maybe Canada? CA?

 

[TPJ]

L3 doesn't have to be expensive. You need to pay for a clinic to get started and then the cost of the assessments. If you pass the assessments you don't need to take another clinic to move to the next level. I decided years ago that I was done traveling for PSIA. I take everything at my home mountain. The costs rack up when people take assessments that they aren't ready to pass and have to take more clinics to be eligible for another assessment attempt. Travel, lodging, and food can add up, that's one of the reasons I refuse to travel anymore for PSIA. I think if a skier was ready for the tests and didn't fail any assessments that L3 could be done for about $1,000. I know a few people who went from 0-3 in one season.

My SS offers a lot of free training that is superior, in my opinion, to PSIA training so I take advantage of that. Last season I trained every Thursday through most of the season with a former US Team member. I was really pissed when PSIA charged me a substantial penalty for not taking the minimum number of clinics from them. I was even more pissed when I found out that in addition to paying the penalty I was expected to make up the clinic hours or have my certifications taken away. In my mind that's like paying for a clinic that never happened. A great profit motivator for them. I was even more pissed when I was told it was for my own good because PSIA doesn't want me to neglect my development and stay current. I pointed out that I trained over 80 hrs last season and my "development" is progressing quite nicely without them. They said that they can't endorse in-house training because they don't control the content of that training. I guess it's all about the money and the color of the jacket worn by the trainer because my coach is also a PSIA DECL. They do nothing for their members and can't understand why most of us don't like our professional organization. PSIA.... Please Spend It All.

I will never give them one extra dime and won't take one extra minute of their clinics than I have to going forward.

 

[Jilly]

Would love to do something outside the division for fun. Maybe Canada? CA?

CSIA fall members convention Banff - November 20-22. 3 days. Eastern one is Tremblant December 6-8. Rest of programs not up yet.

 

[Living Proof]

L3 doesn't have to be expensive. You need to pay for a clinic to get started and then the cost of the assessments. If you pass the assessments you don't need to take another clinic to move to the next level. I decided years ago that I was done traveling for PSIA. I take everything at my home mountain. The costs rack up when people take assessments that they aren't ready to pass and have to take more clinics to be eligible for another assessment attempt. Travel, lodging, and food can add up, that's one of the reasons I refuse to travel anymore for PSIA. I think if a skier was ready for the tests and didn't fail any assessments that L3 could be done for about $1,000. I know a few people who went from 0-3 in one season.

My SS offers a lot of free training that is superior, in my opinion, to PSIA training so I take advantage of that. Last season I trained every Thursday through most of the season with a former US Team member. I was really pissed when PSIA charged me a substantial penalty for not taking the minimum number of clinics from them. I was even more pissed when I found out that in addition to paying the penalty I was expected to make up the clinic hours or have my certifications taken away. In my mind that's like paying for a clinic that never happened. A great profit motivator for them. I was even more pissed when I was told it was for my own good because PSIA doesn't want me to neglect my development and stay current. I pointed out that I trained over 80 hrs last season and my "development" is progressing quite nicely without them. They said that they can't endorse in-house training because they don't control the content of that training. I guess it's all about the money and the color of the jacket worn by the trainer because my coach is also a PSIA DECL. They do nothing for their members and can't understand why most of us don't like our professional organization. PSIA.... Please Spend It All.

I will never give them one extra dime and won't take one extra minute of their clinics than I have to going forward.

I've followed may of TPJ's insightful instructional posts on Epic. On my first tip to Jackson, he went out of his way to make some runs with me, although keeping up with him is not in my skillset. Since then I've met him a few times there during Gatherings or @Philpug mini-gatherings. So, my sense of the man is that he is a dedicated ski instructor who has posted excellent thoughts about both how to ski and how to teach..two very different skill sets. He's taught at Jackson, full time for at least 10 years, did Ski Patrol work in the town of Jackson

I remember discussions where he expressed frustration with PSIA, and, interestingly to me, that he had not passed L3. He sure skis as well as any L3 I've skied with, so it always made me wonder just how good you had to be, or politically correct, to pass L3. Especially in the Rocky Mtn Div, where so many very good skiers show up. My guess is that he would pass easily in Eastern, but, I do not have any good insights into PSIA requirements. Another Jackson instructor told me that Jackson does not have a rigid PSIA instructional system, the individual gets to teach pretty much their own way. So, sure hope that Jackson does not penalize TPJ and pays him at the highest level, regardless of his official PSIA status. I concur with his thinking about not paying PSIA one dime more,

Don't get me wrong, I am all for continuing education credits required by professional organizations or state certification requirements. But given the low compensation from being PSIA certified, can't blame anyone for giving up the formal relationship.

 

[markojp]

First off, TPJ is one of those amazing L2 folks out there! There is NOTHING that says an L2 can't be a great instructor. if I recall, TPJ had passed L3 teaching. Second of all, there is no 'politically correct' component to any level of certification. That idea just needs to be nipped in the bud. If we're going to get into the whole f%^% the organization because someone didn't pass*, we need to remember EVERY nat'l teaching organization has exams and standards, and that not everyone passes. It is what it is.

*yes, there are divisional variations that have been problematic. I know for a fact this is an issue that's at the top of PSIA's radar. RM examiners attended some PNW exams last season to see if the play field was level. Jon Ballou was at Zentune's L3 last season. He passed. I'm guessing he would have passed earlier if it had been a priority for him.

 

[Mike King]

Well, the cost of earning a Level III is not just the cost of the exams, travel, etc., but also the opportunity cost of the time to train to pass. Level III, at least in Rocky Mountain, requires a very high level of skiing and versatility, and you aren't going to achieve that level without a significant investment of time to train. Perhaps some could achieve that working full-time and training for no more than an hour a day (less when you consider lift time and the need to report in for work), but there's also the time that's required to study for the movement analysis and teach.

Many have highlighted the issues of older instructors achieving Level III, but there is one hurdle that hasn't been clearly highlighted: mindset. Let's face it; older folk have lots of experience, but that experience can also be a hindrance. Rather than embrace new learning, many of our older folk either can't understand the coaching (they get stuck on their own beliefs or simply can't reconcile what they are hearing with their own learned understanding) or are unwilling to try something new. Or, for that matter, try something new for long enough to move through the cognitive, associative, autonomous cycle.

Level III is not only about skiing at a certain level, it is also about versatility. Have the early pressure to the outside ski move down? Can you delay it? Mastered recentering by pulling the feet back? Can you do the same through flexion/extension moves of the ankle and knee? Got rotary down? Can you turn the ski with pressure and edging? Versatility generally requires moving outside your own belief system to explore and challenge your own understanding of biomechanics and physics. It requires exploring different movement patterns. Not things that are typically easy for someone who has been skiing, and possibly teaching, for decades.

That being said, many Level III (and 4/examiners) become stagnant and stuck in their own experience. The best coaches and instructors, in my opinion, are those that are always exploring, trying to enhance their understanding and skill. These are the folk who are true "professionals."

So, while all the other factors (pay, burnout, management, etc.) are present, experience can be both a enabler and a barrier to achieving Level III. It depends on your mindset.

Mike

 

[BS Slarver]

I failed my level lll teaching the first go round..... the progression and my lesson plan was simply over the examiners head. He didn't ask any questions or look for any clarification from me. Came back the following year, I aced my teaching using the same segment, verbatim and got raving scores...... go figure ?
As a trainer and SS director I've observed a few exams and can tell you the ll - lll bar can be very subjective.
Since I suck at the whole quote thing - just got to say @TPJ and @Living Proof nail it in their last few sentences.

 

[Jerez]

1. The best instruction I've had over the years has never been in PSIA clinics. To be fair, my choice of clinics has leaned toward the more generalized.
2. I keep up my cert for the discounts primarily.
3. Instructors I know have chosen not to get certified because of cost/benefit ratio. Even at level 1.If you are paid the equivalent of $5 per hour (because of mandatory unpaid time, meetings and line ups) why would you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get less than a dollar more in pay?

So people are complaining about PSIA cert and clinics mostly because the pay is so bad.

Is it PSIA's fault that instructor pay structure is so lousy? This is a serious question.Is it PSIA's responsibility to advocate for fairer pay and work conditions? Do they have any clout or leverage to do so?

Maybe instead of certifying individual instructors, they ought to certify ski schools. Then they'd have something to use. They could require ski schools to have PSIA clinicians come and teach clinics to their instructors and assess their instructor pool. That puts the onus on the ski school instead of the underpaid instructor. Wouldn't most big ski areas want to be PSIA endorsed or certified?

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I am in RM. You have to do CS2 - 3 days and $450.00. The exam is 3 days and $450.00. There are a couple of other required clinics prior to exam at $80.00 each. You have to complete the written test prior to the exam at $80.00. So, total exam related costs: $1140.00, exclusive of missed work. For some of the younger people, this cost may be prohibitive.

I agree with TPJ that approved in house clinics should be eligible for PSIA credit. If PSIA is concerned about the content and not income, this should not be a problem.

During the years I did Epic Ski Academy, I skied for 4 days with Bob Barnes (RM examiner). I submitted the information to PSIA for credit and had to pay an administrative cost for PSIA to input the information. The administrative cost was the same cost as going to a PSIA clinic. I do not think this is appropriate. I am not opposed to a minimal admin cost but it should not be the same as attending an actual clinic.

 

[markojp]

Honestly, with all that RM is requiring, it'd probably time for an L4 category. Of course the biggest difference in RM is that it's ground zero in the US for destination resorts where one can actually piece together a survivable seasonal income. That said, it's pretty tough to make standards more complex and difficult when pay at most areas in different regions of the country will in no way compensate for the costs of certification even if one is clearly skiing and teaching to standard. FWIW, I know that if I showed up to teach in RM, the training staff would make sure that I'm able to sku and work at their standard. That's absolutely fine. Friends have done this without issue. Of course those who go to RM are generally both free to travel and financially motivated to swim in a bigger pond. I'd be there in a heartbeat myself if not for family obligations.

For the rest, it sure looks like this is a PSIA sucks thread at this point which isn't productive. I'm sure some may think I sound defensive, but that would be a misreading. Every organization has flawed policies and indeed, individuals in positions of authority. My take and comments are in the context of having been certified in a different nat'l system, working with and having friends trying to work through their certifications in yet another system, having witnessed some of the shenannigans of USSA nat'l team selection back in the day, and reveling in the irony that nothing helped me pass PSIA L3 than accessing, watching, and reading everything I could get my hands on from CSIA. (Sort of into some Italian stuff at the moment. )

Anyhow... it's probably time to check out of this one. Best to all!

(We're at the proverbial page 4! )

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Honestly, with all that RM is requiring, it'd probably time for an L4 category. Of course the biggest difference in RM is that it's ground zero in the US for destination resorts where one can actually piece together a survivable seasonal income. That said, it's pretty tough to make standards more complex and difficult when pay at most areas in different regions of the country will in no way compensate for the costs of certification even if one is clearly skiing and teaching to standard. FWIW, I know that if I showed up to teach in RM, the training staff would make sure that I'm able to sku and work at their standard. That's absolutely fine. Friends have done this without issue. Of course those who go to RM are generally both free to travel and financially motivated to swim in a bigger pond. I'd be there in a heartbeat myself if not for family obligations.

For the rest, it sure looks like this is a PSIA sucks thread at this point which isn't productive. I'm sure some may think I sound defensive, but that would be a misreading. Every organization has flawed policies and indeed, individuals in positions of authority. My take and comments are in the context of having been certified in a different nat'l system, working with and having friends trying to work through their certifications in yet another system, having witnessed some of the shenannigans of USSA nat'l team selection back in the day, and reveling in the irony that nothing helped me pass PSIA L3 than accessing, watching, and reading everything I could get my hands on from CSIA. (Sort of into some Italian stuff at the moment. )

Anyhow... it's probably time to check out of this one. Best to all!

(We're at the proverbial page 4! )

I did not mean my post as a PSIA sucks post. However, I think are things that PSIA could do to help ease the financial burden for instructors.

 

[4ster]

I will never give them one extra dime and won't take one extra minute of their clinics than I have to going forward.

You could do like I did, become an examiner & then they pay you .

Seriously though, I had the same issue with required training hours a few yrs. ago & again this year. I was not happy about paying for a clinic that I didn't receive! For me it is all water under the bridge as I will be receiving my 40yr. pin in October & will no longer pay regional dues or be required to fulfill educational requirements.

The experience you have had with your local trainer is one I have heard many times from staff in the Schools I have worked. Even then, my life as an instructor & trainer would've been far less productive without my PSIA experiences.
I do agree with much of your post but I still believe that the PSIA process has great value. It is far from perfect & the exam process is way more subjective than it should be. As you have found out, there is much more to being a good instructor than PSIA. PSIA is only 1 piece of the puzzle, one needs to explore all the avenues & resources available which go far beyond PSIA. Sort through the good & bad, keep what has value & also learn from the crap. For up & coming instructors PSIA is likely the best starting point.

Many have highlighted the issues of older instructors achieving Level III, but there is one hurdle that hasn't been clearly highlighted: mindset. Let's face it; older folk have lots of experience, but that experience can also be a hindrance. Rather than embrace new learning, many of our older folk either can't understand the coaching (they get stuck on their own beliefs or simply can't reconcile what they are hearing with their own learned understanding) or are unwilling to try something new. Or, for that matter, try something new for long enough to move through the cognitive, associative, autonomous cycle

This relates back to the OP's original question & has certainly been a frustration for me in my last few years as a trainer. Many retirees coming into teaching as a late in life hobby with a lifetime of ingrained movements, some good, most not . IME, it has been much easier & quicker to develop a newer skier than it is to teach an old dog new tricks (myself included). Every lesson has a correctional component before we can move onto the developmental aspect. The correctional phase is never fun, especially if there is a lot of baggage. Until the student is able to let go of preconceived ideas & notions this developmental stage can never begin. The same can be said for those expecting to be successful with certification assessments.
I will admit that seeing a lifelong hip swiveling, leg locked heal pusher find independence between his body parts is almost as rewarding as seeing a 6yo. complete his/her first whirlybird !

Is it PSIA's fault that instructor pay structure is so lousy? This is a serious question.Is it PSIA's responsibility to advocate for fairer pay and work conditions? Do they have any clout or leverage to do so?

I have brought this up with board members on many occasions since things started getting out of whack a number of years ago. The answer I always get is that PSIA is strictly an educational body. My response is that if they want to survive it is time to shift paradigms & become an advocate between their members & SAM.

EDIT: I will add that over the long haul PSIA has been a good value for me. The discounts I received for owning 5 new Subaru's over the decades alone has more than made up for my dues & certifications .

 

[fatbob]

Jusy an observation not specific to PSIA. Many non- profit organisations start with a genuine intention of providing something useful for a fair shared cost. Pretty soon they evolve into an organisation concerned with revenues and revenue earning opportunities and start taking members for granted as they "tax" them under threat of expulsion.