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The Influence of Ski Waist-Width and Fatigue on Knee-Joint Stability and Skier Balance

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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Team Gathermeister
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"Too much play in the the interface" describes so many tiresome things in life.

Developer One: "Don't break the interface."
Developer Two: "That's not an interface. That's a clapped-out transmission from a 1971 VW microbus. It was broken long before I got anywhere near it."

AirBnB Renter: "I'm locked in the bathroom. The knob just fell off as soon as I touched it and rolled under the original 19th century clawfoot tub!"
AirBnB Host: "Yes, it does that sometimes. When we say 'authentic experience' we really mean it. I should be home with a bent coat hanger to slide under the door in a couple of hours."
 

James

Out There
Instructor
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Dec 2, 2015
Posts
25,009
Oh.
So that was what was going on.
Your certainty was so unyielding.
I'll never forget that thread.
I'm not alone in that.
Definitely the guy coming in from the right is more at fault. I think that was gray. The key is “ahead” in the Code, it’s not “below”.
I did gain a new appreciation for lawyering.
 

Dakine

Far Out
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Dec 21, 2015
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Tip of the Mitt
A ski boot doesn't change the amount of torque necessary to tip a ski but it does change the force distribution necessary to generate that torque.
Which takes us into very deep water since some folks think a ski is tipped by applying pressure from the foot to the boot sole and some think it is tipped by tipping the boot as a unit by moving the lower leg.
IMO, ski boots are very rigid laterally and I would like to see video of someone tipping the sole of a boot without moving the upper shell.
:popcorn:
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
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Apr 24, 2017
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2,642
Location
Beaverton OR USA
If you take an average man's size 9 foot, who wears a 25.5-26.5 shell, that fits into a 98-100 last shell as a base to perform measurements on, then what you find is the following approximate numbers:

1) If you measure the flesh area, under your heel bone (calcaneous), not to the edges, but what actually supports your mass, the width of this cross-section is 5cm
2) If you do the same measurement, under the ball of your foot, which is where the midfoot Metatarsal bones meet the base of your toes (Phalanx bones), and measure from the midpoint of the small toe bone to your big toe bone, this cross-section is 7cm
3) Of no practical importance, but interesting, the distance from the ball of your foot to the middle of your heel is 15cm

This Trapezoidal balancing zone that your body uses, 7cm in front, 5cm in back, and 15cm in length (excluding the toes - yes they are important), just happens to have as the mid-point cross-section, a width of 6cm or 60mm - which just happens to be very close to the narrow point 65mm on race-skis (not a coincidence).

I have a number of front side carvers (Volkl RaceTigers, Blizzard GS with Race-plate, Rossi Multi-turn, plus a few more that I share with my former Canadian level racing partner), and I can tell you that in my experience, 67-68 is where the cross over point is from being able to roll the ski on edge, without the feeling of the width creating leverage, because when I use the Rossi Multi-turn, that has a 70 waist, it becomes very obvious that the width of the ski is wider than my brain wants to feel, and I can feel the extra force needed to get it on edge. My soft/heavy snow ski is an Enforcer 88, a ski I love, but I only love it after a few runs where I have to completely change the way I ski - where I develop a somewhat brutalized forced tipping onto the edge with speed type of skiing (it kind of feels like a large SUV just running over everything in its way type of feeling - which is great in heavy crud type snow)

I came at all of this as a lifetime hockey player and someone who only came to skiing much later in life. I had to experiment and buy many different types of skis until I finally figured out that the type of ski that my brain wanted was a race ski that was narrow underfoot so that I could get the feeling that I was on an edge, like in hockey, and I could just turn/carve when I wanted to without thinking - and that is what 65-67/68 feels to me - it's so intuitive you don't have to think and you don't need to expend the energy to 'launch' the ski up onto its edge to carve a turn. I also happen to be a person that badly blew apart my left knee so I'm extra sensitive to the feeling of leverage being applied to this joint.

I love this geometrical analysis of the physics. As a career mechanical engineer it sure makes sense to me.

I can also look at it this way: At the interface of the boot to the foot, the forces cannot extend beyond the contact surface. Surfaces not in contact cannot put compressive forces against each other. Therefore anything outside of the trapasoidal shape described cannot exert a compressive force to the bottom of the foot.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Having skied ankle high leather ski boots, cross-country ski boots and modern ski boots, I know the upper boot can sure add a lot of torque to the party. HOWEVER, it adds it to both the fatty and the skinny ski. All things being considered with respect to their own effect, tipping wide skis puts more torque on the knees than tipping skinny skis. A hard surface that won't let the edge sink in makes it a real problem.
 

Bill Miles

Old Man Groomer Zoomer
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Nov 16, 2015
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Hailey, Idaho
"Too much play in the the interface" describes so many tiresome things in life.

Developer One: "Don't break the interface."
Developer Two: "That's not an interface. That's a clapped-out transmission from a 1971 VW microbus. It was broken long before I got anywhere near it."

AirBnB Renter: "I'm locked in the bathroom. The knob just fell off as soon as I touched it and rolled under the original 19th century clawfoot tub!"
AirBnB Host: "Yes, it does that sometimes. When we say 'authentic experience' we really mean it. I should be home with a bent coat hanger to slide under the door in a couple of hours."
I actually had the bathroom thing happen to me twice. Once was a USAF visiting personnel quarters where a bathroom was shared by two rooms with a split deadbolt lock that could be actuated from inside or outside of either room. When I want in, the lock from my room somehow engaged and wouldn't disengage from the inside. There was nobody in the other room so I had to break the door jamb to get out. The other was at a Mexican service station where there was no knob on the inside and I banged on the door until somebody let me out.
 

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