Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[nay]

@tball for sure use the vid as you want.

 

[LiquidFeet]

is there a sequence, i.e., ankles/COM/hips or are movements ideally timed simultaneously? The books we’ve read on the issue can be contradictory, which is why I volunteered to ask the question here at the risk of starting a fire-storm.....

What I want from PSIA is to define different ways of turning. Write out how to do them. In their educational documents, I want them to talk about initiation. Talk about releases. Talk about steering angle, platform angle, edge angle and the differences therein. Talk about degree of completion and the demands "completed" turns put on releases. Talk about initiating a skidded, steered turn vs initiating an arc-to-arc carved turn. Talk about common misconceptions. Talk about how to "teach" clients out of those misconceptions.

Do this in a manual designed for this purpose. Make this manual available to the public. There's $$ there!

If PSIA continues to not provide this type of detailed material about turn mechanics, instructors climbing the cert ladder have to go to other sources. Who will that be? It will be skiers who have written books on how to ski and how to become an expert skier.

Just saying ... mentors are not always available at smaller ski schools, and mentors, if not guided by PSIA, are not necessarily on the same page. Contradictions in how to manage basic parallel turns on blue groomers are going to be the norm when consulting different how-to-ski books, and given the PSIA silence on this issue, when asking instructors and their trainers.

The OP asked for "basic initiation technique for groomed blue terrain w/packed powder (not particularly icy)." Saying "it depends" is fine if there's a reference standard that's defined first. I think the OP is asking for that standard. So far she hasn't gotten an answer in this thread.

 

[David Chan]

@LiquidFeet have you read the new alpine technical manual? Or the older biomechanics of skiing manual?

 

[James]

Well, this is why money spent on the Demo team is largely a waste.

 

[David Chan]

BTW, regarding @LiquidFeet 's comment about making these resources available, most of the teaching and technical manuals are available to the public. You don't have to be a PSIA member to purchase them.

http://www.thesnowpros.org/shop/catalog/education

The general public can also read a lot of the same information written in such a way as to be "non technical" in Ski Magazine. A lot of the current articles being written on "how to ski" are being done in partnership with several of the PSIA members. Michael Rogan is currently the editor for Ski Magazine. He is also the coach for the Demo team and some of the best world cup athletes.

https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/aim-adventure-u-how-to-break-through

I would "cut and paste" some excerpts from the technical manual and teaching manual but that would be a violation of copyright. There are some very specific progressions for "basic parallel" generally starting from teaching proper stance, movements, etc, and how to blend them into turns.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes, I've read them.

 

[Mike King]

If PSIA continues to not provide this type of detailed material about turn mechanics, instructors climbing the cert ladder have to go to other sources. Who will that be? It will be skiers who have written books on how to ski and how to become an expert skier.

Just saying ... mentors are not always available at smaller ski schools, and mentors, if not guided by PSIA, are not necessarily on the same page. Contradictions in how to manage basic parallel turns on blue groomers are going to be the norm when consulting different how-to-ski books, and given the PSIA silence on this issue, when asking instructors and their trainers.

Many instructors from smaller mountains find going to National Academy to be a way to achieve what you are looking for. Granted, not cheap, but it's relatively inexpensive for what it is.

Mike

 

[David Chan]

Many instructors from smaller mountains find going to National Academy to be a way to achieve what you are looking for. Granted, not cheap, but it's relatively inexpensive for what it is.

Mike

Even your local regional conventions and rallies are great as a resource. If you get involved with your division, you can shape the rally some too.

Some people asked to have a session on specific subjects, and the ed staff will try to accommodate your request.

 

[ADKmel]

Seems you can be as book smart as you want but unless you 'can do it/ski it" demo it, I'm wondering how can you teach it?
I find over analyzing can quickly muck up a lesson.

Last year at Taos our instructor got us all to just relax in the fall line and just tip the ski, no real physical input, he likened it to having a "Magic Ski "
Voila! the skis turned without much input because shaped skis really do most of the work.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Many instructors from smaller mountains find going to National Academy to be a way to achieve what you are looking for. Granted, not cheap, but it's relatively inexpensive for what it is.
Mike

Yes, gaining access to present and past Demo Team members for group lessons is a way to clarify things. This option is not possible for many of PSIA's members.

 

[David Chan]

Yes, gaining access to present and past Demo Team members for group lessons is a way to clarify things. This option is not possible for many of PSIA's members.

You need to take control of your own training. At our school, a small resort with no tech team or demo team members on our staff, asked our management to try to bring in for a training, someone from the tech team. Most divisions can arrange for a day or clinics at your home mountain. If are proactive, you should be able get training tailored to your needs. We actually were considering as a group of 10 of us, to pay the division, to bring a clinician in and run 2 half day clinics. Do something like this and you could have half day privates targeted specifically to your needs or wishes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The OP's question: how PSIA now teaches turn initiation for upper intermediate/advanced skiers ... for a basic initiation technique for groomed blue terrain w/packed powder, not particularly icy ... is there a sequence, i.e., ankles/COM/hips or are movements ideally timed simultaneously? ... none of us are instructors but we do take lessons frequently.

Here are some of the answers provided so far in this thread. I may have missed some.
@Suzski, how we doin so far?

-- @ADKmel posted this: Just relax in the fall line and just tip the ski, no real physical input.
-- @Mike King posted this: If you watch the Italians ski, they often use an extend to release and initiate the turn process. The Japanese and New Zealanders generally use a flex to release method. Flex to release is usually faster in racing. Extend to release can be a bit problematic as often students will push the skis around rather than establishing an edge... everything starts from the ground and progresses up .... So, feet tip followed by tipping from the lower leg, etc. Generally works in almost all skiing!
-- @James posted this: As for initiation, the key word is release. You do need the parts in roughly the right place though. Merely flattening the downhill ski can release one into a new turn, but only if you're in the right position. If you're uphill, it's not going to do much. Same with flexing or softening that leg. Too far uphill and nothing happens.... Many people simply do not want to fall downhill for the brief period of release.
-- @mister moose posted this: Turn initiation can be as simple as discussing weight transfer. Or any number of other things. If there's anything to be set on in teaching initiation it's not to be set on something.
-- @crgildart posted this: Initiation all begins with the pole plant (or tap for you youngsters :-P) Whether you're unweighting or shifting over as you begin to plant/tap it is the trigger that kicks everything else in motion for a new turn.
-- @David Chan posted this: I’m comfortable in saying PSIA teaches many ways to “release” and many more ways to initiate a turn. ... I tell them "let's go ski it, so you can figure out what you do" I also let them know there is "NO WRONG ANSWER" because clearly they are making direction changes.
-- @LiquidFeet posted this: Seems like ... teaching advanced intermediates to flex the new inside leg to start a turn (instead of rotating both skis, or extending the new outside leg, or tipping the new inside ski onto its little toe edge, or whatever) would be the promoted PSIA initiation
-- @Rod9301 posted this: Flex to release ... I used to release by up extending, moved to flex to release and i can say it's vastly Superior in all conditions, except perhaps in steep couloirs where 99.9 percent of do skiers not venture, and where you need to do pedal turns.
-- @Sibhusky posted this: This is why I don't read these threads. Or take lessons.

 

[LiquidFeet]

You need to take control of your own training.....

David, I'm sure your intentions are positive, but my training is not the issue in this thread. My comments on PSIA's choices about how to shape its educational materials are not geared to my own needs, but the needs of the membership in general as I perceive them. Please stop giving me unsolicited advice on how to get training for myself. If you believe that my perception of the membership's needs, in general, is inaccurate, then address that.

 

[David Chan]

Except my question about if you have read the tech manual, All of my comments were not specifically aimed at @LiquidFeet . Sorry if the way I wrote those posts made you think that. They were in general to the many questions and comments about how to get better training to the PSIA membership. Unfortunately you just happened to bring up the subject of candidates climbing the certification ladder, and mentioned some very good perceived flaws in PSIA training that I was trying to give some of my experience as I went through the process (a long time by the way) and what I have learned. Your perception is accurate. and I did have to seek out a lot of my training and mentors myself. We (our ski school) did not have a lot of access or staff members that were current examiners trainers or demo team members. Past or present.

But back to @Suzski I (unfortunately) did not address her specific question well. I did give her what my methodology would be, with out asking her to maybe give her answer to my question, "What do you do to affect a direction change?"

Unless it's something way out in left field (again "not wrong" just totally unexpected)
I would start with a quick check for understanding,

--We are trying to keep our COM over our feet or just in front of our feet, Pressure goes to the outside,, shins need to stay engaged on the tongue of the boot.
(how to check for understanding may be in many different forms depending on the guest.)

Then steps to take.

Then since it's a "basic turn/Basic initiation" you are asking about.
and this is Right out of the technical manual and teaching snow sports manuals.
Flatten the skis (tip the feet from the ankles) simultaneously, (release)
Slight extension with the new outside leg to start COM moving inside the turn (foot to foot weight transfer)
Flexion of the inside leg to allow for easier rotation and movement of the new inside ski (allows steering to match outside ski)
Com continues to move inside as the feet guide/shape the turn. (will create some gentle edge angle this using inclination and if continuing to flex the inside leg, some angulation)
Weight begins to even out as the skis come across the fall line, ankles and feet start to flatten skis again (release) and you repeat.

Which part of these steps gets emphasized/focused on in any particular lesson and how it's taught would be dependent on the partnership/relationship I create with a client.

 

[markojp]

Conditions, skis, and a whole lot more determine what to pull out of your bag of tricks to initiate a turn. I think mileage and skiing all conditions and terrain eventually make it instinctual.

^^^^ this ^^^^^

 

[abcd]

Imagine that Ikea furniture would come with an enclosed booklet titled "general concepts and underlying physical laws of furniture design and assembly" instead of product specific manuals. This is how ski teaching feels to me.
As a student /customer I find teaching remarkably inconsistent and fragmented between instructors.
After 7 years of regular lessons with L3 instructors I realized I simply can't visualize a turn. That I can't close my eyes and replay the movements and sensations of a "perfect" turn.
If there is no "one fits all"way to ski, PSIA could outline 5 most useful progressions to lead to 5 most useful turn types. I strongly believe that 7 years of rehearsing the same 5 progressions over and over again would give anyone a decent mastery of those five "common" turn types and provide a good toolbox to be able to ski in different conditions. Even a cow on skis could probably learn one progression properly in 7 years.
With the current "fundamental" approach, I remain an intermediate skier despite all the efforts. 70 percent of it is due to starting later in life and general lack of coordination, but at least 30 percent is the lack of consistent teaching methodology.

 

[markojp]

Seems you can be as book smart as you want but unless you 'can do it/ski it" demo it, I'm wondering how can you teach it?
I find over analyzing can quickly muck up a lesson.

Last year at Taos our instructor got us all to just relax in the fall line and just tip the ski, no real physical input, he likened it to having a "Magic Ski "
Voila! the skis turned without much input because shaped skis really do most of the work.

In general recreational skiing, I agree that a great demo is very important. I always as the group if my demo matched the words and actively encourage them to let me know if they aren't seeing it. There are cases though at higher levels that the athletes are almost always better, stronger stronger skiers than the coaches, but the coaches are paid for their eye and knowledge, not just their ski skills. Does anyone think for a moment that Mikaela's coaches ski better than she does?

Love the last bit. Did the instructor ask where you started the tipping action from?

 

[markojp]

Imagine that Ikea furniture would come with an enclosed booklet titled "general concepts and underlying physical laws of furniture design and assembly" instead of product specific manuals. This is how ski teaching feels to me.
As a student /customer I find teaching remarkably inconsistent and fragmented between instructors.
After 7 years of regular lessons with L3 instructors I realized I simply can't visualize a turn. That I can't close my eyes and replay the movements and sensations of a "perfect" turn.
If there is no "one fits all"way to ski, PSIA could outline 5 most useful progressions to lead to 5 most useful turn types. I strongly believe that 7 years of rehearsing the same 5 progressions over and over again would give anyone a decent mastery of those five "common" turn types and provide a good toolbox to be able to ski in different conditions. Even a cow on skis could probably learn one progression properly in 7 years.
With the current "fundamental" approach, I remain an intermediate skier despite all the efforts. 70 percent of it is due to starting later in life and general lack of coordination, but at least 30 percent is the lack of consistent teaching methodology.

Fair comments. Sometimes what everyone's seeing in your skiing won't bring out much disagreement, and even if they all did the same progression, there will be one or two who just seem to connect with how you process information, both cognitively and physically. IMHO, it's important to work with one or two people who you really connect with in more of a 'mentor' relationship if at all possible. It's even better if those couple of folks know each other and can exchange thoughts. The hard part for many who are striving for that last 10-15% major leap improvement ( before getting to the high level refinement stage) is that there might be some 'getting your butt kicked' involved, and a commitment to making changes during the off season as well.... weight loss, fitness, study, film, etc.....

 

[David Chan]

In general recreational skiing, I agree that a great demo is very important. I always as the group if my demo matched the words and actively encourage them to let me know if they aren't seeing it.

I do this as well.. It's part of the "check for understanding"

 

[LiquidFeet]

@David Chaus posted this:
Then since it's a "basic turn/Basic initiation" you are asking about.
and this is Right out of the technical manual and teaching snow sports manuals.

--Flatten the skis (tip the feet from the ankles) simultaneously, (release)
--Slight extension with the new outside leg to start COM moving inside the turn (foot to foot weight transfer)
--Flexion of the inside leg to allow for easier rotation and movement of the new inside ski (allows steering to match outside ski)
--Com continues to move inside as the feet guide/shape the turn. (will create some gentle edge angle this using inclination and if continuing to flex the inside leg, some angulation)
--Weight begins to even out as the skis come across the fall line, ankles and feet start to flatten skis again (release) and you repeat.

Great answer. How did I miss this? Do you have the page numbers?
I'm going to paraphrase each of your five lines to see if I understand what the tech manual says. Please correct me if I've got this wrong.

--Ankle-tip skis both to flat while still going in the old turn's direction.
--Extend/lengthen the new outside leg to transfer weight/pressure to its ski and to start pushing the upper body across the skis (not said: this extension and COM movement will tip the new outside ski onto its new edge and that edge will start the turn given the ski's built-in anatomy).
--Flex/shorten the new inside leg and rotate its ski to keep it up with the turning of the new outside ski (to avoid a wedge entry).
--As the upper body continues to move farther across the skis, rotate both feet to get the skis to point down the fall line; if skier continues to shorten/flex the inside leg and moves the body far enough across the skis, skis will tip onto new edges above the fall line and angulation will kick in.
--Just after passing the fall line, use ankles to flatten skis and start the process over again.

I'd call this an "extend-to-release initiation" despite the admonition to initially ankle-tip to flat, since extending a leg takes precedence over flexing the other leg, since that moves the CoM across the skis, since the extension transfers "weight" to the new outside ski, and since the extension happens first. So, the answer to the OP's question is that PSIA is promoting an extension move to get the turn started, preceded by ankle action to flatten the skis.

@David Chaus, I really do want to know where in the new manual this is, but I understand that takes time to look up and you may not have that time. When I get a chance, I'll go over the manual yet again looking for this.