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Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

ADKmel

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In general recreational skiing, I agree that a great demo is very important. I always as the group if my demo matched the words and actively encourage them to let me know if they aren't seeing it. There are cases though at higher levels that the athletes are almost always better, stronger stronger skiers than the coaches, but the coaches are paid for their eye and knowledge, not just their ski skills. Does anyone think for a moment that Mikaela's coaches ski better than she does?

Love the last bit. Did the instructor ask where you started the tipping action from?


Yes he did, I had another PSIA 'master's ski upgrade clinic' we honed in on the quiet spot before the transition to the next turn. Dissecting a turn on paper is one thing, actually 'doing' it is a great way to 'connect all the dots' and "feel" it.. I find that most students if they 'feel" it, they get it and then can ski better.

You bring up what I think separates ski instructors: One that can "see" what the skier is doing and then being able to give tips to correct or fine tune the skier so they ski better with less work. (yes I know racers/ or advanced skier or on extreme terrain are working every second)

I don't think there is one size fits all when it comes to teaching, learning, turning, skiing. Think of the times you may have to correct a turn, instantly do a hop a turn Oh Crap A Rock! Yikes Yard sale over the knoll! the need to suddenly change course. Skiers do schmearing turns, dolphin turns, skid turns, carve turns. Big turns, little turns, Skiing is Lots of Turns. Racers may do a 1 legged turn I think of Bode flying down a race course skiing wildly and WINNING! I think he dropped his pole in one race! We aren't static, we're constantly adjusting.

Ultimately don't all turns all start when you tip your ski into the fall line? Gravity does the rest.. our physical input makes our turns more or less dynamic depending on pitch, conditions etc.

For me skiing is being a human gyroscope constantly adjusting, flexing, extending and flowing with the terrain. Throw in modern skis.. they have made skiing much easier but still there are some that are very stiff, some with tiny sweet spots. How many instructors have had students on skis that are way beyond their skiing abilities? Being on the wrong ski can hold a progressing student back IMO. I come from big long 215cm straight kneissel white stars I raced on those planks and I loved them, I can't imagine having to ski them now that I have Renoun Z-90's (most amazing ski I have ever skied) Modern skis have made skiing easier, but if on the wrong ski it can make for a tough day.

While we're complaining about PSIA I don't think PSIA teaches skiing the fall line or teaching how to read the terrain/Mt. I work with all my students on reading terrain I find It makes them better skiers really quickly. Turns are easier in the fall line. Dropping into a steep trail my students have liked my analogy of thinking about when you're jumping into the swimming pool, fear factor decreases, and they master steep terrain and have FUN. A BIG bag of Tricks/tips is what makes good instructors.

In general I find the skiing public isn't interested in our techno babble. they just want their thighs to stop burning, want to get more mileage, advance to more difficult terrain or want to "look like that skier" who is skiing in a rhythmic smooth, dynamic form with ease down any trail,yes that takes mileage. Good coaching/instructors can and do make better skiers.
 

David Chan

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@LiquidFeet , you got the wrong david but re tech manual, it may not be avail as hard copy yet, but page 118.

Under “teaching, developing technical content” intermediate zone, basic parallel

I added body parts movements for my progression.
 

Mike King

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In general I find the skiing public isn't interested in our techno babble. they just want their thighs to stop burning, want to get more mileage, advance to more difficult terrain or want to "look like that skier" who is skiing in a rhythmic smooth, dynamic form with ease down any trail,yes that takes mileage. Good coaching/instructors can and do make better skiers.

QFT. And the reason to really delve into what your client wants from your lesson.
 

David Chan

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Amend that. Tech manual came out 2015. I opted to just get the digital version. The new Teaching manual came out 2018 and when I went to buy that to study for CS2, the print version was not yet available.
 

David Chan

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PSIA does teach skiing the fall line and terrain selection and tactics.
 

ADKmel

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PSIA does teach skiing the fall line and terrain selection and tactics.

In the East it's taught at higher levels, Not to beginners -I was scolded (by PSIA examiner) because I said I introduce fall line right from the get go- I find it also helps skiers keep their head up and looking down the hill for the next turn.
 

David Chan

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I would not consider that “wrong” to explain or teach what a fall line is in a beginner class. I explain the term “fall line” in just about every first time lesson and novice lesson. That’s a discussion that really should be had with any skier new or otherwise. It’s a term that will follow them through out their skiing experience all the way to advanced lessons. How we approach and use fall line might be another discussion but I might have to respectfully disagree with that particular examiner.
 

markojp

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Yes he did, I had another PSIA 'master's ski upgrade clinic' we honed in on the quiet spot before the transition to the next turn. Dissecting a turn on paper is one thing, actually 'doing' it is a great way to 'connect all the dots' and "feel" it.. I find that most students if they 'feel" it, they get it and then can ski better.


Ultimately don't all turns all start when you tip your ski into the fall line? Gravity does the rest.. our physical input makes our turns more or less dynamic depending on pitch, conditions etc.

For me skiing is being a human gyroscope constantly adjusting, flexing, extending and flowing with the terrain. Throw in modern skis.. they have made skiing much easier but still there are some that are very stiff, some with tiny sweet spots. How many instructors have had students on skis that are way beyond their skiing abilities? Being on the wrong ski can hold a progressing student back IMO. I come from big long 215cm straight kneissel white stars I raced on those planks and I loved them, I can't imagine having to ski them now that I have Renoun Z-90's (most amazing ski I have ever skied) Modern skis have made skiing easier, but if on the wrong ski it can make for a tough day.

While we're complaining about PSIA I don't think PSIA teaches skiing the fall line or teaching how to read the terrain/Mt. I work with all my students on reading terrain I find It makes them better skiers really quickly. Turns are easier in the fall line. Dropping into a steep trail my students have liked my analogy of thinking about when you're jumping into the swimming pool, fear factor decreases, and they master steep terrain and have FUN. A BIG bag of Tricks/tips is what makes good instructors.

In general I find the skiing public isn't interested in our techno babble. they just want their thighs to stop burning, want to get more mileage, advance to more difficult terrain or want to "look like that skier" who is skiing in a rhythmic smooth, dynamic form with ease down any trail,yes that takes mileage. Good coaching/instructors can and do make better skiers.


Skiing is simple.

It's not easy, but it's simple.

The second part. Yup. Nail struck.

(Also glad to hear your trainer/clinician/instructor connected the dots and worked toward a sensation. Add a bit of vid, and you're with the right person.)
 

David Chan

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Under “teaching, developing technical content” intermediate zone, basic parallel

I added body parts movements for my progression.

The manual just says Flatten the skis, I’m slowly trying to learn to give “how” using specific body parts, etc in my explainations.
 

Mike King

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In the East it's taught at higher levels, Not to beginners -I was scolded (by PSIA examiner) because I said I introduce fall line right from the get go- I find it also helps skiers keep their head up and looking down the hill for the next turn.
I teach not only the fall line, but terrain in my first time lessons. I want my students to think about how they can use terrain to help them control their speed. Our learning area has a sweeping left hander. I'll position them at the top and point out that if they turn to the left, they will accelerate, but if they turn to the right, the hill will control their speed. Skiing is the confluence of technique, terrain, and tactics, so why wouldn't we teach that from the get-go?

Mike
 

David Chan

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I teach not only the fall line, but terrain in my first time lessons. I want my students to think about how they can use terrain to help them control their speed. Our learning area has a sweeping left hander. I'll position them at the top and point out that if they turn to the left, they will accelerate, but if they turn to the right, the hill will control their speed. Skiing is the confluence of technique, terrain, and tactics, so why wouldn't we teach that from the get-go?

Mike
Yup. Our learning area slopes towards the magic carpet in the middle. Terrain is huge in tactics at all levels!
 

David Chaus

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@David Chaus posted this:
Then since it's a "basic turn/Basic initiation" you are asking about.
and this is Right out of the technical manual and teaching snow sports manuals.

--Flatten the skis (tip the feet from the ankles) simultaneously, (release)
--Slight extension with the new outside leg to start COM moving inside the turn (foot to foot weight transfer)
--Flexion of the inside leg to allow for easier rotation and movement of the new inside ski (allows steering to match outside ski)
--Com continues to move inside as the feet guide/shape the turn. (will create some gentle edge angle this using inclination and if continuing to flex the inside leg, some angulation)
--Weight begins to even out as the skis come across the fall line, ankles and feet start to flatten skis again (release) and you repeat.

Great answer. How did I miss this? Do you have the page numbers?
I'm going to paraphrase each of your five lines to see if I understand what the tech manual says. Please correct me if I've got this wrong.

--Ankle-tip skis both to flat while still going in the old turn's direction.
--Extend/lengthen the new outside leg to transfer weight/pressure to its ski and to start pushing the upper body across the skis (not said: this extension and COM movement will tip the new outside ski onto its new edge and that edge will start the turn given the ski's built-in anatomy).
--Flex/shorten the new inside leg and rotate its ski to keep it up with the turning of the new outside ski (to avoid a wedge entry).
--As the upper body continues to move farther across the skis, rotate both feet to get the skis to point down the fall line; if skier continues to shorten/flex the inside leg and moves the body far enough across the skis, skis will tip onto new edges above the fall line and angulation will kick in.
--Just after passing the fall line, use ankles to flatten skis and start the process over again.

I'd call this an "extend-to-release initiation" despite the admonition to initially ankle-tip to flat, since extending a leg takes precedence over flexing the other leg, since that moves the CoM across the skis, since the extension transfers "weight" to the new outside ski, and since the extension happens first. So, the answer to the OP's question is that PSIA is promoting an extension move to get the turn started, preceded by ankle action to flatten the skis.

@David Chaus, I really do want to know where in the new manual this is, but I understand that takes time to look up and you may not have that time. When I get a chance, I'll go over the manual yet again looking for this.

@LiquidFeet , you got the wrong david but re tech manual, it may not be avail as hard copy yet, but page 118.

Under “teaching, developing technical content” intermediate zone, basic parallel

I added body parts movements for my progression.

Actually I think I did post that, but in a different thread some time ago. But @David Chan is correct, it’s in the the digital version of the Alpine Technical Manual.

If there’s a clarification I would make to the steps involved, I would have #2 and #3 to be simultaneous (extend new outside leg and flex new inside leg together, rather than first one, then the other). But that may be one distinction between advanced intermediate and advance skiing.
 

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In the East it's taught at higher levels, Not to beginners -I was scolded (by PSIA examiner) because I said I introduce fall line right from the get go- I find it also helps skiers keep their head up and looking down the hill for the next turn.

I also teach this from the get-go. However, I don’t use the term fall line. From EpicSki I learned to use go line and slow line. Go line is the fall line, slow line is across the hill perpendicular to the go line. I teach that pointing your skis down the go line will let you go as fast as gravity will take you. If you are on the slow line and if you aren’t moving you won’t move. I teach them that the way you pick go and slow lines will control your speed. If you want to stop then turn (go) to the slow line. It is an easy concept for them to understand and teaches them that they have control. It is also a subtle way to introduce terrain selection without saying it.

Remember, turn shape does not control speed. Line selection controls speed. Turn shape is just the way we select the lines we desire. (I’m sure that statement opened some eyes.)
 

James

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Remember, turn shape does not control speed. Line selection controls speed. Turn shape is just the way we select the lines we desire. (I’m sure that statement opened some eyes.)
So what are you telling people who think turn shape and line are basically the same thing, or the difference is semantics?
 

T-Square

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It’s a subtle difference. The same turn shape on a green slope or a black slope results in totally different end speeds. However picking the same lines on both slopes should result in speeds that are close to being equal. (Understanding that the steeper slope will have ‘stronger’ go lines which need to be countered with more more time in slower lines.)
 

abcd

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Fair comments. Sometimes what everyone's seeing in your skiing won't bring out much disagreement, and even if they all did the same progression, there will be one or two who just seem to connect with how you process information, both cognitively and physically. IMHO, it's important to work with one or two people who you really connect with in more of a 'mentor' relationship if at all possible..

Spot on. The "don't" feedback has been fairly consistent. The "do" part was not.
I try to stick with the same couple of people most of the time and some progress is happening, albeit very slowly.
Downside is that it's a pretty expensive way to progress. I can't come to a group lesson and continue (roughly) where I left of last time because everyone teaches the same progression. My only way to achieve consistency is a private lesson. Not too many people would be willing to invest in regular private lessons. The rest are stuck with random pieces of information thrown at them by different instructors and, largely, just give up on the whole process.
 

geepers

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Spot on. The "don't" feedback has been fairly consistent. The "do" part was not.
I try to stick with the same couple of people most of the time and some progress is happening, albeit very slowly.
Downside is that it's a pretty expensive way to progress. I can't come to a group lesson and continue (roughly) where I left of last time because everyone teaches the same progression. My only way to achieve consistency is a private lesson. Not too many people would be willing to invest in regular private lessons. The rest are stuck with random pieces of information thrown at them by different instructors and, largely, just give up on the whole process.

Can you name any human activity where students can effectively learn by turning up to lessons sporadically, run by different teachers, with totally different fellow students, with a random learning environment, and where student spend most of the time between lessons re-enforcing bad habits?
 

LiquidFeet

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@LiquidFeet , you got the wrong david but re tech manual, it may not be avail as hard copy yet, but page 118....
Under “teaching, developing technical content” intermediate zone, basic parallel....
I added body parts movements for my progression.

Yes, I see I did get @David Chan and @David Chaus confused. And there it is, on page 118, just as David Chan posted. I did miss it. I missed the whole chapter. PSIA does provide a step by step description of a basic parallel turn in this manual. As David pointed out, the PSIA promoted initiation is to:
--Flatten both skis (doesn't say how).
--Extend the new outside leg to move the CoM across the skis (doesn't say that this will actually flatten both skis).
--Doesn't say to do this extension to get the new outside ski weighted and onto its new edge so it will start the turn, but that's what it has to mean.
--Flex the new inside leg and rotate that new inside ski to keep up (match) the now-turning outside ski.


This is definitely an extension initiation, since so much of the top of the turn depends on lengthening that new outside leg.
@Suzski, is this the information about turn initiation you were looking for?

In the section on teaching intermediate skiing, and just after teaching basic parallel turns, the Alpine Technical Manual lists a set of other things to teach intermediate skiers. Suzski, this might help present a context for that basic parallel turn. Skiers learn things in different orders, of course, but in general intermediate skiers are ready to learn to do these things. Here they are:
--varied sizes of those basic parallel turns
--pivot slips
--hockey stops
--railroad tracks
--falling leaf
--carved turns
--tactically needed step turns

The advanced skier section talks about teaching advanced carved turns, varying the radius of those, and skiing bumps, steeps, ice, and powder.
 
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LiquidFeet

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At National Academy this last April I skied with two current members of the PSIA national team and three former members of the team. Of those five, four focused on turn initiation during our instructional time together. Only one of those four taught starting turns with intentional focus on the new outside ski, as the manual does on page 118, and matching the new inside ski to it. This was in bumps.

The other three focused on a flex-to-release, a flexion turn, with no intentional focus on the new outside ski/foot/leg. The groups were mostly in bowls and other above-tree-line terrain. For them the way to start a turn was to flex/shorten the new inside leg, and let the outside leg follow. No talk of extension during initiation or through the top of the turn at all.

On this non-groomed terrain at Big Sky, skiing choppy conditions, we were also coached to rotate that new inside foot/leg to point in the direction of the new turn and to keep the skis drifting and flat through all parts of the turn. That rotation creates a "steered" turn (think: pivot slips), not a carved turn, and carved turns were not being promoted on steep choppy terrain those days.

This was on advanced terrain and conditions and our groups were advanced skiers. One talked about ankle-tipping at the start, but pointed out if you had hip to snow, ankle tipping won't come first.

One of these former team members (not sure about the others) pretty consistently teaches turn initiation with a focus on the new inside ski/foot/leg. Carved and non-carved turns are started this way, with the new outside ski/foot/leg left to follow along. This is how I ski, and often but not always what I teach. For this teacher, the major exception is navigating steep narrow couloirs, where a stem-step turn prevails.
 
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Mike King

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Spot on. The "don't" feedback has been fairly consistent. The "do" part was not.
I try to stick with the same couple of people most of the time and some progress is happening, albeit very slowly.
Downside is that it's a pretty expensive way to progress. I can't come to a group lesson and continue (roughly) where I left of last time because everyone teaches the same progression. My only way to achieve consistency is a private lesson. Not too many people would be willing to invest in regular private lessons. The rest are stuck with random pieces of information thrown at them by different instructors and, largely, just give up on the whole process.
@abcd have you considered ski camps as a way to obtain more consistent feedback in a forum where you have several days to work on it?
 

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