Skate to Shape to Short Turns

[karlo]

This is a possible L3 ski assessment task. At PSIA-E, this is how it is described,

“
Skate to shape to short turns: On groomed intermediate terrain, forward oriented, diverging skating blends over distance to skating that provides turn shape and then to short turns
Assessment Criteria:

• The skier should show propulsive skating, blending to shaping, and then to short turns using about one third of the allotted space for each identifiable segment of the task.
• The tips of the skis should be farther apart than the tails when skating.
• The lifted ski should be level with the surface or slightly tip down and remain closely directed towards the fall line.
• The skis should move primarily forward leaving a clean slice at the end of the skating step.
• The skier should be in a balanced state and in control when moving from foot to foot through the entire task.”

I found this video of it,


Can’t imagine that this is a good example. The description says

View attachment 105773

I know what skating is. I know what short turns are. What is “Shape” and “Skate to Shape”? Is that turning on the little toe edge of the inside gliding ski?

Also, what does “roll to inside edge with each stroke” mean? That means placing the propulsive ski on its outside edge and rolling to its inside as part of the stroke?

Does anyone know of better videos?

Thanks.

 

[François Pugh]

I got nothing.
Except this comes to mind

 

[LiquidFeet]

...
Also, what does “roll to inside edge with each stroke” mean? That means placing the propulsive ski on its outside edge and rolling to its inside as part of the stroke?
....

Yes, the skate description is of a "Level III" style skate.

There's a propelling ski, and a gliding ski.
...set the gliding ski down on its little toe edge...(this is the Level III part)
...glide while rolling that ski to flat...
...continue rolling it onto its big toe edge...
...at which point it has become the propelling ski ...
...propel!

I agree about the video. That is not a good example of skate to shape.

This maneuver starts out with skating, progresses to carved (arc-to-arc) medium radius turns, then those are morphed into short radius turns. It's an hour glass shape thing, starting with very narrow skating straight down the fall line, then to widish turns, then to short radius turns. Narrow, wider, narrow. A truly evil examiner may add pivot slips to the end of the progression. Skate (Level III style) to shape (medium carved turns) to short (Level III short radius turns) to pivot slips (evil addition). Practice this often, and include the pivot slips just to be sure. Then do it in the opposite direction, starting with pivot slips, then short radius turns, then carved turns. You can skip the skate when you do it the opposite direction. Practice this on very hard snow. Your daily drivers may need to be less than 80 at the waist for this, and they should have the torsional strength to hold the carve easily.

You ought to take at least three skates straight down the fall line, followed by three carved turns, and three short radius turns. Count to make sure you keep them equal.

 

[geepers]

Like this?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That's definitely not a good demo above. Just starting with the skate the real problem there is that you can see his torso following the ski with each step of skate.

 

[karlo]

may need to be less than 80 at the waist

Got 76’s for the occasion.

Like this?

Wow, love the motion. And that looks like skating to a medium carve. @LiquidFeet, is that it? Skate, then transition to skating medium turn as seen in this video, then transition to short turns?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

That second video isn't it at all.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Eric Timmerman, what's wrong with the skate-to-shape in the video geepers put up? Does the skate part use too wide a corridor?

 

[James]

There’s no skating. Skating goes straight forward. So he skipped that step, and just rides the weighted ski in an arc.

If you practice skating by tipping the foot in the air to little toe, and landing on little toe, it will help get to shape. That can be seen in geeper’s vid above.

 

[LiquidFeet]

So yes, the skating part is too wide a corridor to count as a "skate."
I fell for years trying to set that darn ski down on its LTE and glide/roll it.
I'd fall while gliding along on the LTE. My body was in the wrong place. I'd fall to the outside.
Got that solved a few years ago.
Karlo, good luck on getting this thing nailed this upcoming season. If we have one.

 

[karlo]

There’s no skating. Skating goes straight forward. So he skipped that step, and just rides the weighted ski in an arc.

If you practice skating by tipping the foot in the air to little toe, and landing on little toe, it will help get to shape. That can be seen in geeper’s vid above.

So, first skate straight forward, then transition to what is seen in the video that @geepers put up?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes, as I understand it.
@Erik Timmerman is a PSIA-E examiner.
His answer is the final one.

 

[James]

fell for years trying to set that darn ski down on its LTE and glide/roll it.

Did you finally do it going straight? Sounds like you were moving the whole body to the side of that foot in the air.
Thousand steps can help if you do it right, esp at the point of going across to downhill, on a mild slope. Steps should be V’s. They used to say “V’s for Vail, not A’s for Aspen”. Now that the good instructors have moved to Aspen, don’t know what they say.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Not sure what fixed it for me. Trial and error and not minding falling while continuing to try helped.
Some work on keeping the skate part straight and narrow built on it too.

 

[James]

The trouble with kids learning to skate is they associate it with walking. They think it’s just lifting your feet up and down. Imagine ice skating like that.
It’s the glide part of the activity that makes skating skating. Otherwise it’s like herring bone walking up the hill.

 

[LiquidFeet]

When teaching skating to beginners, I liken it to propelling yourself on a scooter, or a skateboard, with the glide ski pointing diagonally off to the side of the intended direction of travel. Scoot dagonally right, scoot diagonally left, repeat. That propelling part deletes the ineffective pick-up-the-foot phenomenon.

I'm evil. I then have them skate downhill until they reach a velocity that worries them, at which point they have permission to start turning for speed control.

 

[geepers]

There's a better demo of the LTE to BTE with skating leading to turning by bending performed by JFB. It's in the gravity drop concept he describes in both the Projected Productions materiel and his own vids from his web site. It's paid content so couldn't post. Again it is for wider turns than the task described by @karlo and only relates to the move from LTE to BTE.

I'm intrigued about what this drill actually entails and what it is supposed to do for the skiing.

I'm happy CSIA L3 only assesses 'normal' skiing and not esoteric drills. No idea what's in CSIA L4 however I understand there's some of the drill stuff in there. Braquage is one.

 

[karlo]

performed by JFB

it is for wider turns

Do you recall which video it was in?

 

[geepers]

Do you recall which video it was in?

Hinterlux. JFB's long turn section. Think it's the second drill in that bit... More demonstrative of rolling from LTE to BTE and making the sidecut work. Then again JFB is on a short radius ski whilst JDS typically uses a longer radius model.

Keep in mind I posted the Josh Duncan-Smith vid with a question mark. Given Erik the Examiner's post that question mark still stands.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....I'm intrigued about what this drill actually entails and what it is supposed to do for the skiing.....

I'm not sure this maneuver's purpose is to help the skier. It's definitely a diagnostic tool that's used for evaluating a skier's versatility.