Skate to Shape to Short Turns

[geepers]

I'm not sure this maneuver's purpose is to help the skier. It's definitely a diagnostic tool that's used for evaluating a skier's versatility.

That seems kind of bizarre. Why not ask them to ski standing on their head? Now that would be a sign of versatility.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@geepers, you don't have to do the dog and pony show to get your CSIA LIII?

 

[markojp]

That's definitely not a good demo above. Just starting with the skate the real problem there is that you can see his torso following the ski with each step of skate.

If you know him, help him get his boots sorted out.

 

[geepers]

@geepers, you don't have to do the dog and pony show to get your CSIA LIII?

For the skiing assessment just 4 things:

1. Intermediate parallel turns
2. Advanced parallel turns (pure carved)
3. Short turns
4. Bumps.

Many stumble on the IP which seems a little odd given it is the lowest performance task. Guess there's too much time so the brain gets over- involved.

If you know him, help him get his boots sorted out.

Which clip does this refer to? The OP clip (Killington Snow Sports School) or the Josh Duncan-Smith clip?

 

[markojp]

Which clip does this refer to? The OP clip (Killington Snow Sports School) or the Josh Duncan-Smith clip?

The OP/Killingtin Sports School clip .

 

[Mike King]

What does skate to shape do for the skier? Working on skating was one of the things that most transformed my skiing. IMHO, there are several great things about this:

• It focuses on your ability to tip the skis on edge early in the turn, with the result that you've established a platform that can accept the forces that will arise later in the turn.
• It requires you to move with the skis rather than away from them. If your CoM isn't moving with the skis, you will likely fall.
• By establishing a platform early in the turn, the skis can then bend.
• The drill results in higher ski performance, meaning that the snow is moving along the length of the ski rather than across it.

This is a great drill that can, with a lot of focused practice and repetition, move some one from being a pusher who pushes the skis to an edge instead learns to tip them to an edge.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Many stumble on the IP which seems a little odd given it is the lowest performance task. Guess there's too much time so the brain gets over- involved.

My guess is that CSIA's intermediate parallel turn is like PSIA's basic parallel or open parallel turn in PSIA. I don't think it's always simply over-thinking or self-consciousness that causes candidates to mess this one up.

When I first took my LII skiing exam in PSIA, my basic parallel turns suffered from the first two of these technical issues. By the time I took it the second time, these issues were gone.

First, it's important to recognize that these are deliberately skidded turns which should enable the instructor to ski in front of the student, at the radius the student is being coached to make, and at the student's pace. The instructor should not speed ahead, but stay barely ahead of the slow and careful student, demonstrating good fundamentals.

--Often candidates are not able to slow themselves down enough.

--The candidate may push the tails around at initiation with the pivot point in front of the boot, effectively pushing the ski to an edge at or just beyond the fall line.

--Or the initiation may be a rotary push-off, which lacks a functional release.

--The candidate may be aft, or following the skis, or using upper body rotation to initiate the turn.

--There may be a wedge entry to the turn, a sequential entry, or an A-frame signifying unequal edge angles.

 

[geepers]

What does skate to shape do for the skier? Working on skating was one of the things that most transformed my skiing. IMHO, there are several great things about this:

• It focuses on your ability to tip the skis on edge early in the turn, with the result that you've established a platform that can accept the forces that will arise later in the turn.
• It requires you to move with the skis rather than away from them. If your CoM isn't moving with the skis, you will likely fall.
• By establishing a platform early in the turn, the skis can then bend.
• The drill results in higher ski performance, meaning that the snow is moving along the length of the ski rather than across it.

This is a great drill that can, with a lot of focused practice and repetition, move some one from being a pusher who pushes the skis to an edge instead learns to tip them to an edge.

Mike

Good list. I can see those especially applying to the way JDS and JFB do the skate to turn drill. They are doing wider radius turns where there is time for the drillee to experience all those things. The PSIA assessment drill is supposedly done short radius. They just want all that good stuff to happen in quick time?

 

[geepers]

My guess is that CSIA's intermediate parallel turn is like PSIA's basic parallel or open parallel turn in PSIA. I don't think it's always simply over-thinking or self-consciousness that causes candidates to mess this one up.

When I first took my LII skiing exam in PSIA, my basic parallel turns suffered from the first two of these technical issues. By the time I took it the second time, these issues were gone.

First, it's important to recognize that these are deliberately skidded turns which should enable the instructor to ski in front of the student, at the radius the student is being coached to make, and at the student's pace. The instructor should not speed ahead, but stay barely ahead of the slow and careful student, demonstrating good fundamentals.

--Often candidates are not able to slow themselves down enough.

--The candidate may push the tails around at initiation with the pivot point in front of the boot, effectively pushing the ski to an edge at or just beyond the fall line.

--Or the initiation may be a rotary push-off, which lacks a functional release.

--The candidate may be aft, or following the skis, or using upper body rotation to initiate the turn.

--There may be a wedge entry to the turn, a sequential entry, or an A-frame signifying unequal edge angles.

Yes, as some-one pointed out elsewhere it's the ski school money turn.

And yes, if done with correct then there should be no issues. Just happen to know a couple of candidates who score well in other tasks and do quite acceptable IP normally (in courses and practice) yet don't deliver at assessment. Must be like the yipes in putting.

My own experience was like yours. First attempt slightly below standard (At assessment CSIA provide a single number score but no qualitative feedback. In course it's the other way around - plenty of feedback but no score...) Second time around good enough. (The difference was 10 additional weeks focused skiing.)

CSIA do provide a couple of good vids for the IP task. The first has scores but no feedback - need 6 to pass. The second has feedback but no scores.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I'd want to see the tempo from the skate carried through into the shape and short. You want to see a nice blend between each of the three, Not I'm skating, now I'm shaping, now I'm doing short turns. It's always fun to try variations of it too. Try it in a tuck!

 

[Chris V.]

CSIA do provide a couple of good vids for the IP task. The first has scores but no feedback - need 6 to pass. The second has feedback but no scores.

To my eye, many of the high-scoring skiers in the first clip show full squaring up to the direction of travel at the ends of the turns. Is this what the CSIA is looking for in intermediate parallel turns?

 

[geepers]

To my eye, many of the high-scoring skiers in the first clip show full squaring up to the direction of travel at the ends of the turns. Is this what the CSIA is looking for in intermediate parallel turns?

lol...should hear the L4 Course Convener comments on that 2nd last skier in the scored clip. It is a vid from a few years back.

In terms of that type of turn the torso does tend to square up somewhat however some separation is still retained (in my understanding). That's visible in the skiers who get the verbal tick in the 2nd clip.

 

[karlo]

The PSIA assessment drill is supposedly done short radius.

Not sure that “shape” part is short. Might be medium. I went back to JFB’s demo in Project Hintertux. Looks a bit longer than short to me. The PSIA description is,

The skier should show propulsive skating, blending to shaping, and then to short turns

shaping

Does that’s have to be short, within one groomer width?

 

[Fuller]

Yes, as some-one pointed out elsewhere it's the ski school money turn.

And yes, if done with correct then there should be no issues. Just happen to know a couple of candidates who score well in other tasks and do quite acceptable IP normally (in courses and practice) yet don't deliver at assessment. Must be like the yipes in putting.

My own experience was like yours. First attempt slightly below standard (At assessment CSIA provide a single number score but no qualitative feedback. In course it's the other way around - plenty of feedback but no score...) Second time around good enough. (The difference was 10 additional weeks focused skiing.)

CSIA do provide a couple of good vids for the IP task. The first has scores but no feedback - need 6 to pass. The second has feedback but no scores.

I think the CSIA has banished tip lead from it's style book. As a skier who had way too much tip lead I can appreciate the look and functionality of that approach but are these examples going too far?

 

[James]

Need some Gillies.

 

[geepers]

I think the CSIA has banished tip lead from it's style book. As a skier who had way too much tip lead I can appreciate the look and functionality of that approach but are these examples going too far?

?

 

[James]

?

They’re pretty square to the skis I think is his point.

 

[Fuller]

?

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. What I'm noticing is that all of the skiers have very little tip lead on the uphill ski, also the upper body seems to follow the turn and face the trees. Perhaps because it's a drill but it just looks a bit off to me.

 

[geepers]

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. What I'm noticing is that all of the skiers have very little tip lead on the uphill ski, also the upper body seems to follow the turn and face the trees. Perhaps because it's a drill but it just looks a bit off to me.

Not a drill per se however the intermediate parallel is not a high performance turn. Not inclining much so not much tip lead required..

As a wider turn the upper body will follow around after the skis.


Same guy doing higher performance turns as a member of the Irish Interski team.