Should ski areas be responsible for identifying guilty parties in collisions?

[crgildart]

I'd like to ask the reverse of this situation:

Say I am skiing along minding my own business and get run into by a snowboarder, who then runs into a tree injuring himself. I was in the right, he in the wrong. He is injured. His friends collect around us and insist that I "cut him off" and caused the accident. They all insist on knowing my ID.

Do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
Ski patrol shows up, do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
The police show up, am I obligated to give it to them? (In most states, No. Not unless you are arrested.)

I don't want anything to do with a lawsuit, it costs too much money. The best way to avoid one is to not be known......

In this scenario, odds are there would be at least two to three POV cameras recording the entire thing, And, even if 100% in the right, refusal to cooperate with resort staff and especially law enforcement is the kiss of death in court. Demand that their GoPro cameras remain untouched and preserved for LEO to get copies of the footage. If you're in the right, you will prevail.

 

[martyg]

Hell yes. I was involved with an organization that independently audit resorts and their safety practices. If they knew that we were coming, we’d be identified and escorted off of the hill.

NSAA is a powerful lobby organization that goes to bat for its member companies to create laws that favor resorts. Most resorts are a shit show as far as safety. If you are an employee, you have OSHA on your side. And OSHA is very prickly about getting hit by objects from above. If you know the industry, you know how an injured ski instructor, an OSHA compliant, and subsequent federal whistle blower suit ended for them.

If you are a private citizen, and struck, your second call should be to the LE office that has jurisdiction in that area.

For more info, follow Jim Moss and Recreation Law.

 

[martyg]

I mean..there are a LOT of people who don't believe they should have to identify themselves to police officers.. I don't know how ski patrol deals with that..they didn't sign up for that.. I mean you have your heroes and what not..but..

Here’s what I do if I witness an accident and the person who caused it is being a dick - if it is a yard sale I grab a ski, take off with it, and let them know that patrol will have it. I then call the state police.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Here’s what I do if I witness an accident and the person who caused it is being a dick - if it is a yard sale I grab a ski, take off with it, and let them know that patrol will have it. I then call the state police.

I had someone come up behind me, scream for ME to watch out then they mowed me down AND took off. I didn't even hear them behind me until they shouted for me to watch out which tells me they were flying, the fact that I went down like a rag doll when I'm very steady on my feet also told me they were flying at a high rate of speed. Wish someone came forward, took one of their skis, reported them to patrol, something....

I still won't go down this trail early season and not without a sweeper. Too much ptsd for me. I couldn't even ski the next day, I tried but one snowboard scrape behind me and I burst into tears.

I desperately wish mountains cared more about mountain safety. They need to up their game and start holding people accountable for reckless behavior.

 

[AmyPJ]

Hell yes. I was involved with an organization that independently audit resorts and their safety practices. If they knew that we were coming, we’d be identified and escorted off of the hill.

NSAA is a powerful lobby organization that goes to bat for its member companies to create laws that favor resorts. Most resorts are a shit show as far as safety. If you are an employee, you have OSHA on your side. And OSHA is very prickly about getting hit by objects from above. If you know the industry, you know how an injured ski instructor, an OSHA compliant, and subsequent federal whistle blower suit ended for them.

If you are a private citizen, and struck, your second call should be to the LE office that has jurisdiction in that area.

For more info, follow Jim Moss and Recreation Law.

This subject is one that really bothers me, especially with my daughter out there on weekends on a mountain that has a lot of choke points and jump spots that cross runs. A shit show is an understatement. I still think that if they wrote some clear rules, particularly to be enforced near or on green runs, then ENFORCED those rules by pulling passes, at the very least it would raise awareness and word would get out that if you endanger others, you will have your pass pulled.

Some situations are definitely subjective, but some definitely are NOT subjective. Doing a blind jump across a cat track onto a steeper slope below, without a spotter, is behavior that puts others at risk. Blowing from the trees out into a groomed run without a spot and speed check puts others at risk. I damn near got mowed down yesterday by a gal on a snowboard who did just that. A friend of a friend got hit last year on a cat track by someone bombing down out of the trees and it broke his back. He could get no information from the mountain about the person who did it.

There definitely need to be consequences. I really do wish the ski areas were held more accountable.

 

[coskigirl]

I wonder if they could institute a system which the patroller scans the pass or lift ticket to ID the skier/rider. Tickets could be linked back to credit card information. In the rare instance where someone is buying a day ticket with cash then ID info as part of a liability waiver could be collected. It would save time at the scene of the collision as copying down info by hand is time consuming and challenging if weather is inclement.

I wonder if they could also add language to their waivers that allows them to collect identity in the case of a collision to get around that hurdle? They aren't LEO so it isn't a state actor issue. Sorry, just the musings of a 2L law student there. Haven't really thought through all of the implications.

 

[scott43]

Here’s what I do if I witness an accident and the person who caused it is being a dick - if it is a yard sale I grab a ski, take off with it, and let them know that patrol will have it. I then call the state police.

Yeah, I mean ultimately it comes down to calling the police. They have to be involved..

 

[Lauren]

Here’s what I do if I witness an accident and the person who caused it is being a dick - if it is a yard sale I grab a ski, take off with it, and let them know that patrol will have it. I then call the state police.

And then when they fall and injure themself trying to ski down with one ski, or walking down, you get sued?

(sorry, the devil's advocate wanted to play too)

 

[martyg]

This subject is one that really bothers me, especially with my daughter out there on weekends on a mountain that has a lot of choke points and jump spots that cross runs. A shit show is an understatement. I still think that if they wrote some clear rules, particularly to be enforced near or on green runs, then ENFORCED those rules by pulling passes, at the very least it would raise awareness and word would get out that if you endanger others, you will have your pass pulled.

Some situations are definitely subjective, but some definitely are NOT subjective. Doing a blind jump across a cat track onto a steeper slope below, without a spotter, is behavior that puts others at risk. Blowing from the trees out into a groomed run without a spot and speed check puts others at risk. I damn near got mowed down yesterday by a gal on a snowboard who did just that. A friend of a friend got hit last year on a cat track by someone bombing down out of the trees and it broke his back. He could get no information from the mountain about the person who did it.

There definitely need to be consequences. I really do wish the ski areas were held more accountable.

Have you seen the LED sign at Beaver Creek?

 

[AmyPJ]

Have you seen the LED sign at Beaver Creek?

No, I ski in Utah, haven't been to Beaver Creek.

 

[martyg]

I wonder if they could institute a system which the patroller scans the pass or lift ticket to ID the skier/rider. Tickets could be linked back to credit card information. In the rare instance where someone is buying a day ticket with cash then ID info as part of a liability waiver could be collected. It would save time at the scene of the collision as copying down info by hand is time consuming and challenging if weather is inclement.

I wonder if they could also add language to their waivers that allows them to collect identity in the case of a collision to get around that hurdle? They aren't LEO so it isn't a state actor issue. Sorry, just the musings of a 2L law student there. Haven't really thought through all of the implications.

NSAA would never go for it. They want their member companies to be as slippery, and as free of any standard of care as possible.

Fortunately, if you are an employee, you have real leverage over safety issues through OSHA. The general public is screwed.

 

[martyg]

No, I ski in Utah, haven't been to Beaver Creek.

It shows how many passes have been pulled to date. It is a nice reminder.

At Purg, ski patrol has been neutered by ownership. This year they scuttled the volunteer yellow jackets. As per my buddies from the patrol, it was because the owner doesn’t want anyone telling his kids to slow down. As a volunteer, you are totally screwed. Get mowed down, experience a life altering injury with a seven figure medical bill, and you eat it. I would never, never volunteer at a ski hill.

It’s unfortunate. At our hill at least, it is a small enough community that if a few passes were pulled, word would get around quickly. And people would behave.

The Texans go home soon. I have an AM private Monday, and don’t have deal with the shit show this weekend.

FYI..., as per OSHA, in 2017 or 18 a ski hill was the second most dangerous work environment in the US. More dangerous than LE. More dangerous than fire.

 

[coskigirl]

NSAA would never go for it. They want their member companies to be as slippery, and as free of any standard of care as possible.

Fortunately, if you are an employee, you have real leverage over safety issues through OSHA. The general public is screwed.

But aren't they already collecting information if they are called to the scene? Even if they don't have a heightened standard of care they will have a reasonable person standard. It could be argued that a reasonable person will collect accurate identity information and if they don't then they could potentially be held liable because they didn't. Yes, their waivers release from negligence but I can see an argument that it would be considered gross negligence. Whether it would hold water would be up to the judge (to determine duty) and jury (to determine breach) but defending those claims would not be cheap. If they can show that they reasonably made an effort to collect and pass along accurate information then they haven't breached a duty.

I hope I remember to come back to this thread when I take a ski law class in a couple of years. Maybe I'll have a different opinion at that point.

 

[scott43]

How can you collect information? What right do they have to collect it? You can ask..but that doesn't mean people will give it to you, and do they have to? If someone asked you in a parking lot what your name and address are, would you provide it? What if someone bumped into you at a sporting event and security asked for your ID? I'd say f-you and call the police.

 

[martyg]

But aren't they already collecting information if they are called to the scene? Even if they don't have a heightened standard of care they will have a reasonable person standard. It could be argued that a reasonable person will collect accurate identity information and if they don't then they could potentially be held liable because they didn't. Yes, their waivers release from negligence but I can see an argument that it would be considered gross negligence. Whether it would hold water would be up to the judge (to determine duty) and jury (to determine breach) but defending those claims would not be cheap. If they can show that they reasonably made an effort to collect and pass along accurate information then they haven't breached a duty.

I hope I remember to come back to this thread when I take a ski law class in a couple of years. Maybe I'll have a different opinion at that point.

Jim Moss, who has represented numerous resorts, manufacturers, etc., is my source of the truth on this subject. Check him out on social at Recreational Law.

If you are taking a course in that domain, you will likely be using a book that he wrtote on the subject. Literally, the guy wrote the book on this. His web site has briefs on many of these cases.

Safe skiing.

 

[coskigirl]

Jim Moss, who has represented numerous resorts, manufacturers, etc., is my source of the truth on this subject. Check him out on social at Recreational Law.

If you are taking a course in that domain, you will likely be using a book that he wrtote on the subject. Literally, the guy wrote the book on this. His web site has briefs on many of these cases.

Safe skiing.

He writes from the perspective the defense attorney and will certainly push very hard to avoid ever having a business take on more liability but laws and case law change. It's tough when there is a strong lobby against it but that doesn't mean it will never happen. It takes the right case with the right facts and the right people (plaintiffs and attorneys) to make it happen but it does. If it didn't we would be living in a very different world right now.

The class isn't being offered this semester so I can't tell what book he uses but here is the professor's bio. https://www.law.du.edu/about/people/jordan-lipp

 

[tball]

How can you collect information? What right do they have to collect it? You can ask..but that doesn't mean people will give it to you, and do they have to? If someone asked you in a parking lot what your name and address are, would you provide it? What if someone bumped into you at a sporting event and security asked for your ID? I'd say f-you and call the police.

Exchanging information is required by the Colorado Ski Safety Act:

(10) No skier involved in a collision with another skier or person in which an injury results shall leave the vicinity of the collision before giving his or her name and current address to an employee of the ski area operator or a member of the ski patrol, except for the purpose of securing aid for a person injured in the collision; in which event the person so leaving the scene of the collision shall give his or her name and current address as required by this subsection (10) after securing such aid.​

https://www.coloradoski.com/sites/default/files/uploads/Colorado-Ski-Safety-Act.pdf

​

The act should be amended, IMO, to 1) require the ski area to call law enforcement if there is an injury or death that is possibly a result of a violation of the act (collision, skiing out of control, alcohol or drug use, skiing a closed area), and 2) require that ski areas employ law enforcement to enforce the Ski Safety Act if there are more than, say, 1000 skiers on the hill on a given day.

If concerts can afford to employ off-duty law enforcement, so can ski areas. Add it to the price of my pass/lift ticket, please.

 

[oldschoolskier]

You call the police, police work with the resort to identify the person if there is a reason to do so. I don't think the ski resorts are trying to get into the law enforcement business..

You’re right in saying call the police.

Ski resorts, hospitals, schools etc., rely on internal security as it allows them to control the reporting and therefore the liability (ie insurance). Its the we took corrective action by going through the motions of action so the problems solved routine. Insurnace not involved.

With police involvement It becomes public record (though confidential) and thereby becomes a liability that “must” be addressed to ensure reduced insurance rates. Unfortunately addressing it, comes at an additional cost as true corrective action must be taken and proven.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Get mowed down, experience a life altering injury with a seven figure medical bill, and you eat it. I would never, never volunteer at a ski hill.....

Needs to be a bumper sticker.

 

[HardDaysNight]

But aren't they already collecting information if they are called to the scene? Even if they don't have a heightened standard of care they will have a reasonable person standard. It could be argued that a reasonable person will collect accurate identity information and if they don't then they could potentially be held liable because they didn't. Yes, their waivers release from negligence but I can see an argument that it would be considered gross negligence. Whether it would hold water would be up to the judge (to determine duty) and jury (to determine breach) but defending those claims would not be cheap. If they can show that they reasonably made an effort to collect and pass along accurate information then they haven't breached a duty.

I hope I remember to come back to this thread when I take a ski law class in a couple of years. Maybe I'll have a different opinion at that point.

In most major ski states the responsibilities of SAM are defined by statute which, generally, exempts them from liability for almost all events, and not by common law principles. SAM certainly has no statutory obligation to collect and ensure accurate identity information. The obligation is on the skier to provide it under certain circumstances.