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LiquidFeet

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Denver Fox News 31 'Problem Solvers" ran this feature on April 28, 2016. The feature chronicled Mines Prof Mark Stangl's experience at Steamboat over Presidents Day 2016 when he was collided with by a reckless snowboarder, who gave inaccurate identity information to Ski Patrol at the time. Stangl's injuries were significant.
Stangl is frustrated that the ski resort won't help get the identity of the snowboarder who hit him and that ski resorts in general, along with industry organizations, hide the number of collisions that occur from the general public.

In an article by Stangl in SeniorSkiing he writes:
"A systemic concealment and conspiracy is in existence regarding skier safety by the industry. An image of 'wonderful family experience' is shadowed by the truth of high non-fatal injury rates, and the exculpatory laws/waivers releasing the operators from virtually all responsibility." (https://www.seniorsskiing.com/incidents-accidents-6/)

Thoughts?
 

surfsnowgirl

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As someone who's been slammed into from someone going out of control I feel very passionate about the code and right of way. There are too many reckless boarders/skiers out there and it's time they are held more accountable. I absolutely think that ski resorts should be responsible for identifying guilty parties in a collision.
 

mdf

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identifying guilty parties
When I first read that, I thought no, they are not judicial organizations.
But now I see it really means "collect the identity of involved parties and witnesses" the answer is definitely yes. In extreme cases, I think they even ought to be able to detain people (non-forcibly) until law enforcement arrives.
 

scott43

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You call the police, police work with the resort to identify the person if there is a reason to do so. I don't think the ski resorts are trying to get into the law enforcement business..
 

mdf

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So I have a question that I honestly don't know the answer to...
How do non-ski-area accident responders (paramedics/EMTs/firemen/ambulance drivers) handle this situation when somebody hurts someone else?
 

scott43

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They fix broken people. They don't try to find witnesses or detain parties who may have been involved. They don't have the tools or training to do so. They may act as witnesses in the event there is a criminal or civil trial or investigation but they're not cops. You call 911 and they all show up usually, including the police. You're under no obligation to identify yourself to a firefighter or paramedic. Anyone can try to detain you for a perceived crime based on citizen arrest standards but you're opening yourself up to some civil litigation. You'd better be sure you're appropriately detaining someone and if you're wrong you may take a beating or end up in court. I suspect ski patrol has some leeway as they are acting on behalf of the landowner, but there is a limit there. I know there is informal cooperation between bouncers, doormen, security guards and the like..but it's not open season.
 

mdf

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You call 911 and they all show up usually, including the police.
Well, there is the difference and the problem. The police don't show up with ski patrol.
I see your point, though, so I don't see a solution.
 

Winks

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It brings a lot of other issues up, Should we police or monitor or ski areas with cameras for out of control skiers, collisions, arguments? Do we need some sort of action other than being banned or having your pass taken? With security comes limitations. Do we need to be like a water park and all ski one at a time? That would certainly bring up the crowds and lift lines.

I am starting to go down a rabbit hole here...
 

crgildart

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Pretty sure they do physically remove people from the premises when they pull a pass. That's a little easier than forcing them to stay until the cops arrive though.
 

cantunamunch

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Well, there is the difference and the problem. The police don't show up with ski patrol.
I see your point, though, so I don't see a solution.

RFID passes and lift stoppage after the person of interest has gotten on would be a powerful combination.

Ticketless card-imprint parking lot gates are already being put in at any number of parking lots and would be a backstop if the POI drives off.
 

crgildart

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RFID passes and lift stoppage after the person of interest has gotten on would be a powerful combination.
Ya but 150 other people also stuck on the lift for however long it takes for LEO to arrive at the resort and navigate to the location of said lift might be considered unacceptable to those other 150 people.
 

Bad Bob

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In an injury situation the information should be collected by the area. Patrol would be most likely. A number of patrollers work with search and rescue organizations that are often sherriff's departments. They might already have a legal obligation if they have been deputized.

This is a tough issue to solve.
 

cantunamunch

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Maybe; then maybe they would consider it worthwhile and the fault of the offender not the ski area.

I use the above word in the context of public opinion, which doesn't wait for due process.
.
 

scott43

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Well, there is the difference and the problem. The police don't show up with ski patrol.
I see your point, though, so I don't see a solution.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's a great situation..but detaining someone is a tricky thing..there is also he-said/she-said..who really is the victim?
 

pchewn

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I'd like to ask the reverse of this situation:

Say I am skiing along minding my own business and get run into by a snowboarder, who then runs into a tree injuring himself. I was in the right, he in the wrong. He is injured. His friends collect around us and insist that I "cut him off" and caused the accident. They all insist on knowing my ID.

Do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
Ski patrol shows up, do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
The police show up, am I obligated to give it to them? (In most states, No. Not unless you are arrested.)

I don't want anything to do with a lawsuit, it costs too much money. The best way to avoid one is to not be known......
 

scott43

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In an injury situation the information should be collected by the area. Patrol would be most likely. A number of patrollers work with search and rescue organizations that are often sherriff's departments. They might already have a legal obligation if they have been deputized.

This is a tough issue to solve.
I mean..there are a LOT of people who don't believe they should have to identify themselves to police officers.. I don't know how ski patrol deals with that..they didn't sign up for that.. I mean you have your heroes and what not..but..
 

scott43

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I'd like to ask the reverse of this situation:

Say I am skiing along minding my own business and get run into by a snowboarder, who then runs into a tree injuring himself. I was in the right, he in the wrong. He is injured. His friends collect around us and insist that I "cut him off" and caused the accident. They all insist on knowing my ID.

Do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
Ski patrol shows up, do I give it to them? (My answer: No)
The police show up, am I obligated to give it to them? (In most states, No. Not unless you are arrested.)

I don't want anything to do with a lawsuit, it costs too much money. The best way to avoid one is to not be known......
And who saw what? It's a thorny issue completely agree. I don't have good answers..just try not to be involved in a collision as best you can I suppose.
 

KevinF

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I watched the video in @LiquidFeet 's original post.

There seem to be a variety of issues here:
  1. If you injure somebody, it would be pretty easy to vanish before anybody could get any identifying information. I don't see that anything can be done about that scenario.
  2. If you stick around and give your information to ski patrol, there's apparently no effort on the part of the ski area to verify that your information is accurate. I would think that most people who stick around and give their information would do so accurately, but maybe I'm being naive. I'm sure ski areas don't want to enter the mess of legal hurdles that would occur if they were to forcibly detain people, etc. People would just start handing over fake ID's, etc.
  3. LF's video veered into a discussion of what the accident rates are at ski area. i.e., a patroller said that there have been over 3,000 incidents. 3000 sounds like a lot of incidents, but I agree with the association people that without context, the raw injury count number is meaningless.
 

pchewn

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I mean..there are a LOT of people who don't believe they should have to identify themselves to police officers.. I don't know how ski patrol deals with that..they didn't sign up for that.. I mean you have your heroes and what not..but..

In most states, you are not obligated to identify yourself to police unless:
A) You are under arrest for a crime.
B) You are stopped for a traffic infraction while driving.
C) You are on parole

There are some states with "Stop and ID" laws.

Your obligation to ID yourself is to state your full name and date of birth. The only time you need to show an actual identification card is when required to show your driver's license.
 
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