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Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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So the thing is if snow is dense, even a moderately wide skis will just float on top.

this day was late November at Stowe and it was really dense snow that had been blown around, you could easily stick a pole into 2 feet deep but when you skied it on a 100mm wide ski, it just skied like stupid nice groomer, and made it super easy to bend your ski into any size you wanted.

47220485_10157671756403357_8848928597486862336_o.jpg


If you sinking in 100mm wide ski but it still feel "heavy" and deep, you best options are like I said above start using the heels to sink the tails down and rudder the skis around with a tipping movement first, or get bigger skis. The thing is deep heavy snow will eat skis that have tons of sidecut and are soft, and there really is nothing skill wise we can do to counteract the affect. Straight/stiff and fairly fat skis in that stuff become your friends. AS someone said the metal katana is great, also the 4frnt devastator, volkl confession, and Blizzard Cochise/Bodacious are good as well, an example of skis that would suck in that stuff are Nordica Patrons their sidecut and softness will cause them to hook no matter you do.

Now if your talking about wind slab, especially super deep aggressive slab, even the ski above will be difficult on open slopes and down right impossible if you need to maneuver around object like we do in vermont. You need almost no sidecut, a fair bit of reverse sidecut and full rocker.

There is a ton of moderate density snow that was wind affect in the chutes in this video. Since I know its going to be untracked, and I know its most likely wind affected I basically dont bother skiing these things on normal skis any more. I tour on a pair of 4frnt Renegades in the Notch area between smuggs and stowe and besides the weight its the best ski for job, the 2 others skis you see in the chutes with me are on 4frnt Hojis and Amarda Magic J, two skis that have a lot of reverse sidecut to them.


this is run done in some VERY thick and aggressive wind slab. This stuff is basically unskiable on a softer ski with more sidecut, the skis will basically just fold and try to take you to far across the hill and it can be impossible to release.

 

Tricia

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Well, there's powder, and then there's powder. And of course--there's powder.

I'm talking here primarily about the denser stuff, deep, that pushes back on you. Not wet, not sticky, not crusted--just dense. So, how does our interaction with that kind of snow differ from our usual interaction? I've been thinking about the fact that not only does such snow push on the bottoms of our skis, it also pushes pretty hard against our legs. Hmmm, that's sure to make a difference to how we need to respond.
Sierra powder can be challenging.
 

Wilhelmson

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Take some xc skis for a few short downhill runs and then the tipping will be easier on alpine skis.
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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honestly not really going to help anyone on alpine skis.
 

SSSdave

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What you seem to be referring to may be soft wind cake without any windblown snow. When a snow surface deposits by wind, the crystals pack more densely. Such snow formation is a matter of terrain location and not water content. When skiing through areas of powder and soft wind cake, one must be loose at lower speed ready for transitions. And as noted stiffer all mountain ski shapes not easily deflected.
 
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Chris V.

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Apparently I'd need to post photos for some people to believe what I've described exists. This is not hypothetical. No transitions, pretty uniform all over the mountain. Sierra Nevada snow is weird sometimes. There's been good advice posted here for the conditions those individuals were discussing.
 

Josh Matta

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honestly sierra stuff is easier IMO since its actually pushed back on you.
 

Mike King

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@Chris V. It might help for you describe the issues you are having. How deep are you going, can you access rotary to twist or starve the ski, is the density variable that is throwing fore/aft off? What ski are you riding?
 

Doby Man

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I think that the combination of snowpack density and ski width (and length) along with lesser factors of speed and turn radius is going to produce a level of penetration that comes with it a coefficient of viscosity, also referred to as the shear rate, that will determine the amount, if any, of rotary displacement that can be facilitated by the ski in any combination of the above circumstances. At least, that is what a little bird told me ... randomly.
 
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Chris V.

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@Chris V. It might help for you describe the issues you are having. How deep are you going, can you access rotary to twist or starve the ski, is the density variable that is throwing fore/aft off? What ski are you riding?

Guys, I wasn't having issues, at least none that couldn't be improved with a little help from my friends. You're reading way too much into this. It was just a rumination on how our response is affected when the snow pushes on our knees as well as on our skis. No need to take pity on me, it was one of the best days ever. Josh Matta's runs weren't like that, although it's readily apparent how challenging that snow was. MOST of the time our California snow is easier than that. And back east you have a totally different definition of tree skiing, LOL!
 

Tricia

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Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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yeah I am pretty sure we get sierra cement type stuff as well....but I have never been in it when I havent just floated to the top of it. The thing is in northern Vermont we get all of the snow types, from light dry colorado snow, to perfect Utah snow, to very wet and heavy PNW/sierra snow. WE also get winds events of all types.

This was 30-40 inches of 15 percent moisture content, again I was on 194cm 120mm wide ski with a 40 meter sidecut, it looks easy but even on that skis it wasnt easy and yes unless you have to cross block branches out of your way, its not tree skiing ;P

 

Tricia

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yeah I am pretty sure we get sierra cement type stuff as well...
Sort of, and keep in mind that I've only skied one legit powder day on the East coast, but I would say the biggest difference with Sierra powder is that we get a lot of it, and I mean a lot.
The last storm cycle we got out here, resorts were reporting anywhere from 60 inches to 130 inches accumulated within 4 days.
The weather resources predicted it to be a 100 inch cycle.
Skiing that kind of snow in that kind of volume is interesting.
You should come out here some time and ski with us. I have a bed for you :D
 

bbinder

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Last week I was at Alta during a 64 inch storm cycle. I decided to demo a “wider” ski - went with the Salomon QST 106 and couldn’t buy a turn. Switched to a Völkl 90eight and found it easier. Went back to my Motive 95s and found it easiest. Conventional wisdom would have put me in a ski that was greater then 110 underfoot - I did not feel any desire to test that out...
 

Tricia

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Last week I was at Alta during a 64 inch storm cycle. I decided to demo a “wider” ski - went with the Salomon QST 106 and couldn’t buy a turn. Switched to a Völkl 90eight and found it easier. Went back to my Motive 95s and found it easiest. Conventional wisdom would have put me in a ski that was greater then 110 underfoot - I did not feel any desire to test that out...
That has been my experience as well.
Occasionally I find a ski with different rocker profile a bit easier in powder, but that tends to be more important to me than the width.
 

Mike King

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That has been my experience as well.
Occasionally I find a ski with different rocker profile a bit easier in powder, but that tends to be more important to me than the width.
Where width becomes important is when you start getting into variable snow, like slab and crust. As well as wet dense snow. That’s when float becomes really important.

I find that the flex pattern, and stiffness, are really crucial as well.
 

Bad Bob

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Think it is time to go test some of this group wisdom this afternoon. 20"+ in the past few days. Will report on findings.
 

Rod9301

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I find that in Maritime conditions, in untracked very deep snow, a 112 mm ski is sometime not wide enough.

But when the snow gets tracked, which is about 30 minutes at squaw, the wider ski is a liability in powder bumps.

Then my skis, stuff 112, long radius, with really well.

It's different in low density snow areas, where you might need a wide, soft ski.

But if you go heli skiing in Alaska, Maritime snow pack, you will never find a guide skiing a floppy rossi ski, or any other soft ski.
 

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