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PugSki Academy?

bbinder

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Here's the scoop, from my perspective as one of the founding coaches of EpicSki Academy.

The EpicSki Academy was a great thing, ground-breaking on many levels, and a fantastic way for a lot of us to meet each other in person and on the slopes. It was an amazing gathering of dedicated skiers and eager students, along with top instructors from across the country, at great resorts. And it was a hell of a lot of fun!

I remember when we first started putting it together. I thought our chances of pulling it off were slim, because most ski areas and resorts are pretty protective of their turf--that is, their exclusive rights to run the ski school on their resort. It was gratifying that so many great resorts actually showed enthusiasm for our proposals and our program. We made a plan to bring people to the resort at otherwise slow times of the season, helping them fill beds and sell lift tickets. We stood strong on our commitment not to compete with their ski school--certainly not soliciting business on-site--but rather to celebrate great skiing and learning with the hope of inspiring people to seek more instruction from their local ski schools wherever they ski. While keeping our group sizes small and paying our instructors reasonably, we kept our pricing as affordable as we could by refusing to pay our host resorts a cut of the "tuition." We thought we offered a good value package for our host resorts, with lodging, meeting space fees, food, lift tickets, gear sales and rentals, and--especially--strong promotion and good will on the web site. Happily, many fine resorts agreed, and EpicSki Academy became a tremendous success.

With its success, though, came the usual growing pains. We quickly realized that we would need to run the ESA as a legitimate business, with proper licensing, accounting, insurance, Workers' Compensation for employees (a challenge when working in several states), and so on. We relied entirely on volunteers to help organize and administer the events, and paid our pre-event bills through the generosity of individuals who put such things as blocks of rooms and advance lift ticket purchases on their personal credit cards, hoping that we'd have enough participation to reimburse their costs. We operated on a shoestring, with pretty much no funding whatsoever to pay staff and administration, to pay for promotional materials, website, business, and advertising costs, and to cover those advance costs that we necessarily incurred before we received registration fees from participants. Clearly, that wasn't a model that was sustainable for a business in the long term--especially as the travel and vacation industry trends turned toward last-minute planning and booking.

Our original camp format was well-received and stood the test of time, as we found little need for changes to it over the years. It took shape through the experience of the coaches as well as the ideas and requirements of the participants. Small groups, great resorts that were reasonably accessible and affordable, hand-picked elite coaches, full days on snow and evening talk sessions, on-site boot experts and equipment advisors, daily video and analysis, a farewell celebration with prizes and a raffle to help support the then-fledgling EpicSki website--these things started with the first ESA at Brighton, Utah and continued through the last, at Big Sky, Montana (or was it Aspen-Snowmass?).

It was a great success, but eventually, we recognized the opportunity and the need to reinvent and refresh the program, to keep the interest and excitement high. The foundation was solid, but new resorts and new formats could make it possibly even better. We needed to change the business model to eliminate the need for personal risk from volunteers (huge risk, actually, when you look at reserving a big block of rooms and lift tickets at, say, Aspen), to actually pay the formerly volunteer staff at least a token, and to fund things like business and promotional expenses. Recognizing the enormity of the task, and since we hadn't actually intended to run a business in the first place (we just wanted to do a live ski camp, mostly for fun, without losing too much money), and since we all had "regular" jobs and obligations, the EpicSki Academy basically just became too much of a burden in its current form. Finally, with great regret, we opted to put it on hold, at least for a while. Shortly thereafter, Vail Resorts (Mountain News Corporation) bought the EpicSki website and the rights to the EpicSki Academy. Vail has never expressed interest in the program, either before or after they purchased it, so the EpicSki Academy's demise was sealed.

At least that chapter of the great experiment was officially closed. But the interest remains, and I'm excited to see the discussion here. Personally and professionally, as an instructor, the EpicSki Academy meant a lot to me. In a profession almost entirely controlled by the resorts where we work, with little opportunity for competition or innovation, the ESA was a shining light, a ground-breaking exception. Without competition, most resort ski schools have little incentive to pursue excellence, to innovate, and to pay what it takes to maintain a top-notch staff of experienced, dedicated, talented teaching professionals. I had high hopes that a premium instruction program like EpicSki Academy could inspire change in the best interest of everyone--pros, students, and ultimately even resorts and the ski industry itself. It's a well-established fact that people who ski better ski more, tending to dedicate more of their free time and "vacation resources" to the sport of skiing and mountain lifestyle. And it's also well-established, to the frustration of the ski industry, that today's typical ski schools do a dismal job of inspiring people to develop the dedication and passion for learning and improvement at skiing that creates life-long devotees.

I know that the EpicSki Academy was an overall success for its participants, coaches, and the resorts that hosted it. And I thought EpicSki Academy might be just the poke the industry needed to inspire a change for the better. I still think so. I'd love to see it revived in some form (with a new name, of course). The ESA is dead--long live PSA!

I have spoken with the Ski School Director at Loveland, for a start, and he's very amenable to our putting something together, perhaps early next season. I would imagine that Stowe would be happy to see an Academy revival of the early-season tune-up there as well--they were always enthusiastic supporters. But we'll need to come up with a new plan that addresses some of the issues I've tried to describe above. Anyone looking for an investment that promises a high rate of return of fun, learning, and appreciation, at least?

:)

Best regards,
Bob
Marcia and I were beneficiaries of all that ESA had to offer (in many ways!). I'd like to add to this that that the reality of running the clinic necessitated an increase in the cost to participants over the years. I considered it a good value even at the end, but did feel my finances getting stretched a bit. It seemed that the numbers of participants waned over the time that I was attending (I don't have any numbers to back this up...), and, considering the number of discussions on how to find cheaper ski gear/lift tickets/lift passes/rental cars/housing that circulated on EpicSki, it made sense to me that the price was scaring some people away. I don't know how much it played into the discussion behind the scenes, but it seemed that the arrival of the Great Recession put a few nails into the coffin. When the ESAs stopped, Marcia and I began to attend the Gatherings -- we could not afford to attend both. Of course, the Gatherings have their own benefits.

Being who I am, I have no suggestions or solutions... I just wanted to throw this thought out there -- I sure would like to see the clinics resurrected!
 

Tom K.

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...do a live ski camp, mostly for fun, without losing too much money.....

Great starting point mission statement for a PSA, right there. :thumb:

Note: The Department of Redundancy Department recommends the name "PugSki Academy" rather than the tongue-twister "PugSki Ski Academy"!
 
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Monique

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I, for one, am very interested, and early season Loveland sounds great, assuming I don't have conflicts. Point of interest due to limited vacation: is this mid-week or weekend or both?
 

jgiddyup

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Interesting for sure! Having attended 2 ESA events I got not much out of one and became a better skier at another.

East/West seems like a good idea and early should promote taking lessons learned to new levels.

Good luck and again I'm intrigued.
 

Pete in Idaho

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A couple things.

lst. One of the best clinics I have ever attended was an epic ESA at Big Sky. Great instruction, powder every day and had a ball also met Tricia there, we were in the same class.

2nd. Insurance. My wife and I ran the International Firefighter Winter Games at North Lake Tahoe for 23 years and almost folded the games (5 days of racing) because we could not afford insurance. Instead of folding we composed a very solid Waiver form and had people sign with a witness before any participation and we figured that if there was negligence present it would be done by the ski area so let them use their own insurance. My wife handled the hotels, meals etc . admin work and I basically took care of the racing. In 23 years I can only remember once telling the race department to change something. This was on the Slide Mt. side of Mt Rose and they did not have a big enough ending area for the S.G. and there was a very large concrete anchor block just outside the downhill fence. NO NO, they changed the finish line stopping area. Never had any problems.

Contingency: I am not saying this would work here, just adding some comments.
 

Philpug

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I was just perusing to see "Who's On Line" and I noticed a "Guest" was looking at this thread. @bud heishman, @Bobalooski and I actually started talking about this two days ago. We have been running some numbers to check the feasibility and as much as we would like to do it this coming season I still think we are at least year out. It is still on the radar and on the "Things to Do" list at Pugski.com's worldwide headquarters overlooking beautiful downtown Reno.
 

bud heishman

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Don't know if I already said this in a past post, but we did an Epicski Academy at Squaw Valley years ago with the insurance issue being raised by the resort. We ended up having to hire a couple instructors from Squaw to escort our groups around the hill to cover the insurance nut. Other than the added cost of a couple all day private lessons, around $750 per group per day! no problem. So if attendees are willing to absorb and extra $4,500 for a three group clinic for two days, no problem! Now that being said perhaps we can negotiate that number down a bit though group sizes would likely need to be on the larger side.
 

bud heishman

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We will see where the interest is? If there are enough to make a group, I would imagine a level four group could be formed if warranted! In general these camps have been for levels 5 or 6 and above. We always do a split to homogenize the groups as best as possible for skill level, speed, personalities.
 

Kneale Brownson

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ESA was geared to multiple levels. I don't recall a beginner group, but certainly level 5.
 

Erik Timmerman

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We had near never-evers. I think I remember one lucky skier getting a two day private on the bunny hill with Stu Campbell.
 

Mendieta

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Don't know if I already said this in a past post, but we did an Epicski Academy at Squaw Valley years ago with the insurance issue being raised by the resort. We ended up having to hire a couple instructors from Squaw to escort our groups around the hill to cover the insurance nut. Other than the added cost of a couple all day private lessons, around $750 per group per day! no problem. So if attendees are willing to absorb and extra $4,500 for a three group clinic for two days, no problem! Now that being said perhaps we can negotiate that number down a bit though group sizes would likely need to be on the larger side.

I'm really struggling with the ballpark, here. What was, roughly speaking, the cost per student, per day, all things said (I'm assuming lodging/trip is separate). So: mountain access + training. Was it in the hundreds per day? In the thousands per day? I have absolutely no idea (a private instructor for a full day will cost you ~ 700 h or so, depending on the place).

The other thing that I don't understand, and I'm definitely not proposing to do anything illegal. But what's the difference between folks skiing together, and a clinic not organized by the resort? I struggle to understand what's the legal basis for the resort to be more legally exposed in one vs the other (btw, I feel like frivolous lawsuits are eating the society inside out, at least in the US).
 
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Monique

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*cry*

This sounds awesome! Don't suppose you want to postpone it a season? :doh:
 

Philpug

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*cry*

This sounds awesome! Don't suppose you want to postpone it a season? :doh:
When...sorry...if...:eek:gcool...when..it happens it won't be till next season. I will say, it won't be inexpensive but it will be worth the money.
 

tromano

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I tagged along with my wife and sister in law at Esa big sky. It was like 4 days instruction and about $1200. lifts and lodging was separate but they had a group discount that was a very solid discount.
 

bbinder

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ESA became more expensive as time went on. My understanding is that this was due to logistics and liability insurance among other things. My opinion is that a lot of people did these clinics in the early days because they were a real bargain, and then the increasing cost priced some people out. The Great Recession certainly helped contribute to dwindling numbers of registrants, and that may have been the final nail in the coffin. My understanding is that even in the heyday of ESA, the clinics did not make money nor were they self-sufficient financially. My feeling is that even at the highest cost, the clinics were a great benefit to Marcia and me with respect to our skiing. We also looked forward to the social aspect, and feel that we created and cemented some great friendships during the ESAs.

Having said that, when the clinics stopped happening, and after our initial grieving for them, we were able to afford an additional ski trip out west each year. And we were fortunate that when we skied a few runs with certain people (you know who you are!), they could not stop themselves from offering valuable pointers...
 

Jed Peters

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I can totally see the value in this...for a great number of skiers. I'm not sure if it's something I would do per se, but I think there is a TREMENDOUS value in high quality instruction for a GREAT NUMBER of skiers... @Philpug I think you'd have a bit of a challenge on your hands, logistically (getting mountain approvals, etc) but I can think of a couple places closer to home that you might give this a go--namely Homewood or Mt. Rose (depending on new ownership?).

With regards to WHEN, I guess that's another issue all together. How do the "non ski area" sponsored clinics like the ones at Altabird do it?
 

Tricia

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ESA was geared to multiple levels. I don't recall a beginner group, but certainly level 5.
We had a few years with a sincere beginner group. I recall one year that Nolo stayed at Snowmass with a group of 3(?) who were intermediate by the end of the week. They had a blast.
ESA became more expensive as time went on. My understanding is that this was due to logistics and liability insurance among other things. My opinion is that a lot of people did these clinics in the early days because they were a real bargain, and then the increasing cost priced some people out. The Great Recession certainly helped contribute to dwindling numbers of registrants, and that may have been the final nail in the coffin. My understanding is that even in the heyday of ESA, the clinics did not make money nor were they self-sufficient financially. My feeling is that even at the highest cost, the clinics were a great benefit to Marcia and me with respect to our skiing. We also looked forward to the social aspect, and feel that we created and cemented some great friendships during the ESAs.

Having said that, when the clinics stopped happening, and after our initial grieving for them, we were able to afford an additional ski trip out west each year. And we were fortunate that when we skied a few runs with certain people (you know who you are!), they could not stop themselves from offering valuable pointers...
I've actually wondered if it would be beneficial to schedule a group lesson or two with instructors who work for the resort. For instance, at the Aspen GTG we should have booked a day or two with @Bob Barnes @Nancy Hummel @Mike King. In fact, I think Nancy lined something up but by that time my life on EpicSki was thrown into a tailspin.
What ever came of that?
 

Jed Peters

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I've actually wondered if it would be beneficial to schedule a group lesson or two with instructors who work for the resort. For instance, at the Aspen GTG we should have booked a day or two with @Bob Barnes @Nancy Hummel @Mike King. In fact, I think Nancy lined something up but by that time my life on EpicSki was thrown into a tailspin.
What ever came of that?

That might be an easier sell to a "bigger" mountain to utilize some of their staff....
 

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