PSIE...urope (born of PSIC...anada, cousin of PSIA...merica?)

[skipress]

I'm interested to hear why you think that to be the case (in Europe). There are many national associations here that allow their examiners to deliver courses for more than one organisation.

True but they are all internationally accredited, so [let's look outside of Europe] sure someone could deliver for APSI and NZSIA as they are both ISIA members [though some organisations do have a 'no other awarding body' clause* in their educator contracts].

PSIC and PSIE are not internationally accredited and are therefore undermining the international 'order of things'. I get that in North America the international agreements are less significant but they are a much bigger deal here.

At it's simplest level why would you want to allow one of your course conductors to leverage that status to increase the 'value' of a competitor that's trying to undermine your awards.

There's the extra dimension that in some Euro jurisdictions PSIE can't be legally recognised.

*BASI in GB for example

 

[horsetwist]

This is not accurate. BASI do not have such a clause in their agreements with their trainers.

When you say internationally accredited you mean by Interski, specifically ISIA, you do not mean by government in countries that regulate skiing in Europe. ISIA is a collection of awarding bodies (some members are private ltd companies that are NOT governing bodies in their respective countries) that have agreed in a loose standard. It is not a regulating body.

Due to this ISIA is largely irrelevant in Europe. France, Italy and Austria left ISIA a few years ago, although Italy has returned they do not recognise their qualification standard. It is a guide that gives employers an idea of the level of a candidate.

Working in Switzerland for a ski school requires no qualifications at all.

Since Brexit, EU countries have been under no obligation to recognise for the purposes of equivalence BASI qualifications. The reason that some still do is that BASI have individually negotiated with the governments of certain alpine countries.

The hurdles that you state either don't exist (trainers coming from other associations) or put the PSIE on an equal footing with other non-governing awarding bodies (negotiating recognition with actual regulating bodies).

And as for opportunity, there are already employers in EU who have engagedPSIC staff.

The opportunity to work and continue your education across continents will be a big draw to aspiring instructors, and I think increasing mobility and job prospects for young instructors is a good thing.

 

[skipress]

This is not accurate. BASI do not have such a clause in their agreements with their trainers.

When you say internationally accredited you mean by Interski, specifically ISIA, you do not mean by government in countries that regulate skiing in Europe. ISIA is a collection of awarding bodies (some members are private ltd companies that are NOT governing bodies in their respective countries) that have agreed in a loose standard. It is not a regulating body.

Due to this ISIA is largely irrelevant in Europe. France, Italy and Austria left ISIA a few years ago, although Italy has returned they do not recognise their qualification standard. It is a guide that gives employers an idea of the level of a candidate.

Working in Switzerland for a ski school requires no qualifications at all.

Since Brexit, EU countries have been under no obligation to recognise for the purposes of equivalence BASI qualifications. The reason that some still do is that BASI have individually negotiated with the governments of certain alpine countries.

The hurdles that you state either don't exist (trainers coming from other associations) or put the PSIE on an equal footing with other non-governing awarding bodies (negotiating recognition with actual regulating bodies).

And as for opportunity, there are already employers in EU who have engagedPSIC staff.

The opportunity to work and continue your education across continents will be a big draw to aspiring instructors, and I think increasing mobility and job prospects for young instructors is a good thing.

For the record I am not a BASI member, however I do 'liaise' with BASI regularly and AFIK BASI would not look upon a trainer delivering IASI [for example] courses with any degree of warmth at all.

It may be that other associations have no objections to their educators also delivering PSIC/E courses but it's hard to believe that someone in the offices would not join the dots and realise that PSIC is trying to eat their lunch and act accordingly. If it's just a blip they won't care but start seeing a few courses and staff might be 'cough' advised of the benefits of monogamy.

As you say ISIA [and IVSI] are not in the narrowest sense regulatory bodies, they do agree standards and give a benchmark - as an employer you can safely assume that someone with an ISIA card [or carte pro] for that matter will be competent to do X. All of the awarding bodies have some form of 'state' recognition in their jurisdiction.

Park France where PSIE has no more weight than a boy scout knot tying badge, outside of that you have an award where the business [and I suppose educators] have to liaise with each ski school individually. If the head of ski school has a dog in the fight, perhaps as a trainer [I think i also referenced Switzerland as a likely location with quite a few ski schools selling a lot of gap year product] then sure. Outside of there it will be much harder.

Now gap year Jolyon's mummy is not likely to start ringing round asking about recognition, but if someone a little more serious calls [say] TSLV [or indeed CSIA, which whether PSIC likes it or not is the recognised body] and asks about recognition they're not likely to receive a ringing endorsement.

I'm all for folks doing as much training from as many diverse organisations and providers as possible, and I can see it making some commercial sense in the USA and Canada where resort groups might be able to have a more direct influence on content and so on.

Whether it will click in Europe 'above' the gap year levels - where marketing - something PSIC seems good at, is key... hmmm, let's see.

 

[skipress]

To no one's surprise this recieved today:

IMPORTANT NOTE FROM THE ISIA BOARD

Following the request of some Members and Snowsports instructors, we are now willing to precise the position of ISIA towards new recently founded national and regional associations.
As per ISIA Statutes, only one Association per Member country is entitled to represent their Nation and to be Member in ISIA.
The Member for Canada is currently CSIA. No other Canadian association (f.i. PSIC), as per statutes, is going to be recognised by ISIA, nor their qualifications are going to obtain ISIA recognition.
ISIA Statutes do not allow regional Membership: regional Associations (f.i. PSIE) will not be recognised by ISIA nor their qualifications are going to obtain ISIA recognition.
For further information, please refer to the ISIA By-laws (§ 5 Membership and Annulment of Membership and § 7 Cessation of Membership).

 

[Jilly]

Yeah!!

 

[skipress]

And

Yeah!!

https://iasisnowsports.ie/2024/04/03/important-note-from-the-isia-board/

I'm all for training and this may well get traction from/in individual ski schools where there is $kin in the game.

It may also work at low levels where [to be blunt] the candidates don't know any better but as soon as someone says so do any other awarding bodies recognise this it will be a way harder sell

 

[Swiss Toni]

The Professional Ski Instructors of Europe (PSIE) is a French limited liability company that was registered by an Irish ski instructor based in Saint-Gervais-les-Bains in February. He used to be the Irish Association of Snowsports Instructors Head of Training and Educational Development.

Presumably he is going to run PSIC instructor training courses in Europe. An English company has been running CSIA instructor training courses in Andorra for around 30 years https://instructor-academy.com/

 

[Jilly]

An English company has been running CSIA instructor training courses in Andorra for around 30 years https://instructor-academy.com/

The CSIA sends over L4 course conductors for it too.

 

[skipress]

The Professional Ski Instructors of Europe (PSIE) is a French limited liability company that was registered by an Irish ski instructor based in Saint-Gervais-les-Bains in February. He used to be the Irish Association of Snowsports Instructors Head of Training and Educational Development.

Presumably he is going to run PSIC instructor training courses in Europe. An English company has been running CSIA instructor training courses in Andorra for around 30 years https://instructor-academy.com/

Yep, I ve known Derek T and his Mrs for years. I'd assume he's going to in effect run PSIC content branded either as PSIE or jointly branded.

As you say Instructor academy has been selling CSIA [and historically CSCF as was] courses for years. I think there's another smaller outfit doing the same. There's also a L1 PSIA 'franchisee' in Switzerland

https://www.skiacademyeurope.com/gap_year.php

The lions share of these is low level 'Level 1' gap year product, which can be hilariously lucrative.

There is an issue with the CSIA courses whereby the CSIA professional negligence cover is only valid in Canada [there are some very minor exceptions to that but they're very minor]. In some jurisdictions employers expect or assume that a staffer will have their own professional negligence cover in addition to employee cover.

That can sometimes cause employment problems when the employer realises this [before an it's not an issue 'here' pile on, it depends on jurisdiction].

There can be lots of 'equivalence requests' because of this and when an instructor needs CPD

Interestingly CSIA has [or had] a policy that they would only run courses in jurisdictions where they are 'welcomed' by the appropriate awarding body. They approached an organisation I work with to ask for permission and were told [politely] 'no thanks', they responded with a 'fair enough, we won't'.

 

[horsetwist]

Not sure why people are so feverishly re sharing ISIA's statement, their bylaws/statutes have always been quite clear in this instance.

About other awarding bodies recognising it....let's wait and see, I think you will be surprised.

And for all the CSIA members here, especially the level 4s you should also try to see what happens if you ask for equivalence in Europe with the French, Swiss, Italians or Austrians, you will be very disappointed.

The CSIA cannot award the ISIA card for it's top level as it's training syllabus is insufficient, barely any of its members even hold the ISIA stamp. It is a domestic qualification in a country that doesn't regulate teaching snowsports to let employers know a level and for the organisation to make money on subs and exams. I do not see how the PSIC is at a disadvantage in any way, especially as Canada's largest ski instructor employer is on board!

The CSIA has membership of the ISIA for the virtue of being there "first" and the membership is almost completely insignificant for the above reasons, bar attendance at Interski every 4 years.

 

[Bendzeekneez]

Not sure why people are so feverishly re sharing ISIA's statement, their bylaws/statutes have always been quite clear in this instance.

About other awarding bodies recognising it....let's wait and see, I think you will be surprised.

And for all the CSIA members here, especially the level 4s you should also try to see what happens if you ask for equivalence in Europe with the French, Swiss, Italians or Austrians, you will be very disappointed.

The CSIA cannot award the ISIA card for it's top level as it's training syllabus is insufficient, barely any of its members even hold the ISIA stamp. It is a domestic qualification in a country that doesn't regulate teaching snowsports to let employers know a level and for the organisation to make money on subs and exams. I do not see how the PSIC is at a disadvantage in any way, especially as Canada's largest ski instructor employer is on board!

The CSIA has membership of the ISIA for the virtue of being there "first" and the membership is almost completely insignificant for the above reasons, bar attendance at Interski every 4 years.

An email sent a few weeks ago.

ISIA Card incoming.



CSIA’S INTERNATIONAL PARTNERSHIPS
PARTENARIATS DE L'AMSC À L'INTERNATIONAL


The opportunity of the CSIA’s 85th anniversary is good reason to update our members on the status of and developments in our venerable organization’s affiliations with the many sport instructor organizations operating both domestically and internationally. Whether you already teach abroad, aspire to, or dream of it, the international value of your membership matters!

International Affiliations

Members who are familiar with Interski will be aware of its world-leading congress of snowsport-teaching nations that meets every four years to demonstrate and compare technique and methodologies. Attendance in Interski is vital for the promotion and development of participating organizations, and ensures their certifications are relevant in the eyes of the global snowsports industry, especially at a time when so many members work internationally.


The Interski organization consists of thirty-one nations and three international specialized organizations. Interski promotes, coordinates, and develops all international matters relevant to snowsport instruction. And it recognizes one organization from each nation: in Canada, that’s the CSIA, where we represent all snowsport teaching organizations within our country.

The three international specialized organizations consist of the International Ski Instructors’ Association (ISIA), the International Federation of Snowsport Instructors (IVSI), and the International Association of Education in Science and Snowsports (IAESS). Alongside membership in Interski, the CSIA is also a longstanding member of ISIA and IAESS, and is in the process of joining IVSI.

Affiliation Benefits

For many decades, Canada’s affiliation with these various international snowsport instructor organizations has fostered our brand recognition globally, and enabled information sharing on trends in teaching methods, technique, and industry best practices.

One new and exciting project underway by the CSIA’s Technical and Education Committee (TEC) involves seeking accreditation from the International Ski Instructors’ Association to offer the “card” level of international certification. This status would offer CSIA members a new and challenging level of international recognition at various levels along our education and certification pathway.

The CSIA has been in strategic meetings with the Professional Ski Instructors of America – American Association of Snowboard Instructors (PSIA-AASI) to joint-venture our efforts to offer this new level of international accreditation. You will hear more about this exciting new educational opportunity in the months to follow.

What’s on the Horizon

As you may have heard, the PSIA-AASI has recently been selected to host Interski Congress 2027 in Vail, Colorado. The CSIA has reached out to our partners south of the border to congratulate them and offer any assistance they might need in making this North American event a huge success.

With this announcement, Nigel Loring, the CSIA’s new managing director, has already begun formulating several exciting concepts for our Interski team structure and approach, along with involvement of the Canadian snowsport partners we proudly represent. Our TEC and Women in Skiing committees will play an important role in designing our theme, team structure, and teaching/technical approaches to improve the customer experience here in Canada.

More importantly, we are focused on generating a measureable return on investment for all CSIA members leading up to, during, and post the 2027 Congress. Stay tuned for more about Interksi 2027 in the months to follow

 

[Mike King]

Seems that PSIC is already having an effect on CSIA. Maybe the competition will cause CSIA to sharpen up?

 

[Jwrags]

Slightly off topic, but what is the avenue for a PSIA level 2 instructor to move to Europe and teach for a season or longer?

 

[Jilly]

Seems that PSIC is already having an effect on CSIA. Maybe the competition will cause CSIA to sharpen up?

I am privy to an email that went out last fall to the L4's and lots of the plans back then that I see getting implemented. Also talks with ACA, Freestyle Canada etc are on going.

Things should really evolve over the summer months.

 

[skipress]

Not sure why people are so feverishly re sharing ISIA's statement, their bylaws/statutes have always been quite clear in this instance.

About other awarding bodies recognising it....let's wait and see, I think you will be surprised.

And for all the CSIA members here, especially the level 4s you should also try to see what happens if you ask for equivalence in Europe with the French, Swiss, Italians or Austrians, you will be very disappointed.

The CSIA cannot award the ISIA card for it's top level as it's training syllabus is insufficient, barely any of its members even hold the ISIA stamp. It is a domestic qualification in a country that doesn't regulate teaching snowsports to let employers know a level and for the organisation to make money on subs and exams. I do not see how the PSIC is at a disadvantage in any way, especially as Canada's largest ski instructor employer is on board!

The CSIA has membership of the ISIA for the virtue of being there "first" and the membership is almost completely insignificant for the above reasons, bar attendance at Interski every 4 years.

You re right [notwithstanding below], currently neither PSIA nor CSIA currently issue ISIA cards [speed test and mountain safety]. CSIA used to issue the stamp @ L3 but then stopped.

There are two different things in play:

• PSIC may be a reaction to Canada specific circumstances [are the criticisms of CSIA legitimate, I ve no idea]. Personally I am nervous if employers have too much direct control over awards as it can lead to an effective race to the bottom, we think the L1 is too difficult, they only teach beginners, can't you make it easier [which for less scrupulous employers means cheaper so we can pay less]. That's IMHO an argument for ISIA/IVSI - member organisations can't completely do their own thing, they're subject to some external governance, in the same way that an independent instructor fed can say to a resort [resorts] no, the minimum competency to do X is y. Now sure if the profession is not regulated then the ski area can say thanks for that, we're not interested and decide you can teach 'lesson 1' if you've completed lesson 2, but if the claims start landing it gets harder to justify that when the independent awarding body has nigher standards. For the record ski areas of course need influence even at the most basic level of we do that over there.
• However, PISE is an English speaking play for the lucrative gap year market. No one can seriously imagine that Fritz from Flachau will do PSIE training [unless I suppose they're just doing it for the badge/status] There's been discontent amongst some providers as to BASI partnership agreements, some years ago one which was very actively trying to set up an alternative. Also new, younger educators come along, perhaps there's less work out there.....

There's a vague resonance from way back when when [preface with as I recall, I'm no golf expert] some Canadians set up a sort of alternative golf teachers federation [and I think they referenced CSIA as a model]. That seems to have expanded from Canada cgtf.com to a wsort of world federation https://www.wgtfgb.com/.

An email sent a few weeks ago.

ISIA Card incoming.



CSIA’S INTERNATIONAL PARTNERSHIPS
PARTENARIATS DE L'AMSC À L'INTERNATIONAL


The opportunity of the CSIA’s 85th anniversary is good reason to update our members on the status of and developments in our venerable organization’s affiliations with the many sport instructor organizations operating both domestically and internationally. Whether you already teach abroad, aspire to, or dream of it, the international value of your membership matters!

International Affiliations

Members who are familiar with Interski will be aware of its world-leading congress of snowsport-teaching nations that meets every four years to demonstrate and compare technique and methodologies. Attendance in Interski is vital for the promotion and development of participating organizations, and ensures their certifications are relevant in the eyes of the global snowsports industry, especially at a time when so many members work internationally.


The Interski organization consists of thirty-one nations and three international specialized organizations. Interski promotes, coordinates, and develops all international matters relevant to snowsport instruction. And it recognizes one organization from each nation: in Canada, that’s the CSIA, where we represent all snowsport teaching organizations within our country.

The three international specialized organizations consist of the International Ski Instructors’ Association (ISIA), the International Federation of Snowsport Instructors (IVSI), and the International Association of Education in Science and Snowsports (IAESS). Alongside membership in Interski, the CSIA is also a longstanding member of ISIA and IAESS, and is in the process of joining IVSI.

Affiliation Benefits

For many decades, Canada’s affiliation with these various international snowsport instructor organizations has fostered our brand recognition globally, and enabled information sharing on trends in teaching methods, technique, and industry best practices.

One new and exciting project underway by the CSIA’s Technical and Education Committee (TEC) involves seeking accreditation from the International Ski Instructors’ Association to offer the “card” level of international certification. This status would offer CSIA members a new and challenging level of international recognition at various levels along our education and certification pathway.

The CSIA has been in strategic meetings with the Professional Ski Instructors of America – American Association of Snowboard Instructors (PSIA-AASI) to joint-venture our efforts to offer this new level of international accreditation. You will hear more about this exciting new educational opportunity in the months to follow.

What’s on the Horizon

As you may have heard, the PSIA-AASI has recently been selected to host Interski Congress 2027 in Vail, Colorado. The CSIA has reached out to our partners south of the border to congratulate them and offer any assistance they might need in making this North American event a huge success.

With this announcement, Nigel Loring, the CSIA’s new managing director, has already begun formulating several exciting concepts for our Interski team structure and approach, along with involvement of the Canadian snowsport partners we proudly represent. Our TEC and Women in Skiing committees will play an important role in designing our theme, team structure, and teaching/technical approaches to improve the customer experience here in Canada.

More importantly, we are focused on generating a measureable return on investment for all CSIA members leading up to, during, and post the 2027 Congress. Stay tuned for more about Interksi 2027 in the months to follow

Do you know if this is the new 'lower' ISIA 'accreditation' that's been under discussion or the current ISIA card/stamp? It implies the latter with some sort of US/Can joint post full cert training.

Slightly off topic, but what is the avenue for a PSIA level 2 instructor to move to Europe and teach for a season or longer?

Marry a nice German girl .

It's not easy because of work permits and award recognition. Park France completely.

In Switzerland and Austria to a degree ski schools can hire much more widely, but they'd need to apply for/support work permit applications.

Ask the Brits, especially those stupid enough to vote for brexit how that's shaking out for their ski instructors . It's a similar problem for Americans [albeit not self inflicted]

 

[Swiss Toni]

Slightly off topic, but what is the avenue for a PSIA level 2 instructor to move to Europe and teach for a season or longer?

If you are a non-EU/EFTA national your chances of getting a work permit to teach skiing in an alpine country are probably zero. Here in Switzerland, which is probably the easiest country for a non-EU/EFTA national to get a work permit “Only qualified non-EU/EFTA nationals, for example managers, specialists or university graduates with several years of professional experience, may work in Switzerland. https://www.ch.ch/en/foreign-nationals-in-switzerland/working-in-switzerland/#non-euefta-nationals

So even if your qualification is accepted, the Swiss Snowsports Association has a procedure for the evaluation and recognition of foreign qualifications https://www.snowsports.ch/de/ausbildung/internationale-einstufung.html#c14689 you won’t be able to get a work permit.

Before the UK left the EU Swiss ski schools, especially those owned by UK nationals used to employ lots of British level 2 instructors, this is no longer possible. As @skipress says it’s very unlikely that any EU nationals apart from maybe a few Irish will sign up for a PSIE training course so, that just leaves the Brits who will presumably be able to get jobs in Canada now that they are no longer allowed to work in the Alps.

 

[Bendzeekneez]

You re right [notwithstanding below], currently neither PSIA nor CSIA currently issue ISIA cards [speed test and mountain safety]. CSIA used to issue the stamp @ L3 but then stopped.

There are two different things in play:

• PSIC may be a reaction to Canada specific circumstances [are the criticisms of CSIA legitimate, I ve no idea]. Personally I am nervous if employers have too much direct control over awards as it can lead to an effective race to the bottom, we think the L1 is too difficult, they only teach beginners, can't you make it easier [which for less scrupulous employers means cheaper so we can pay less]. That's IMHO an argument for ISIA/IVSI - member organisations can't completely do their own thing, they're subject to some external governance, in the same way that an independent instructor fed can say to a resort [resorts] no, the minimum competency to do X is y. Now sure if the profession is not regulated then the ski area can say thanks for that, we're not interested and decide you can teach 'lesson 1' if you've completed lesson 2, but if the claims start landing it gets harder to justify that when the independent awarding body has nigher standards. For the record ski areas of course need influence even at the most basic level of we do that over there.
• However, PISE is an English speaking play for the lucrative gap year market. No one can seriously imagine that Fritz from Flachau will do PSIE training [unless I suppose they're just doing it for the badge/status] There's been discontent amongst some providers as to BASI partnership agreements, some years ago one which was very actively trying to set up an alternative. Also new, younger educators come along, perhaps there's less work out there....

Do you know if this is the new 'lower' ISIA 'accreditation' that's been under discussion or the current ISIA card/stamp? It implies the latter with some sort of US/Can joint post full cert training.

Unknown really about the card, but I would imagine the full card would be their desire. Some things to consider about us Canadians:

- being bilingual is not uncommon with two official languages and a multitude of first nation languages recognized by provincial bodies. A requirement for the second language is not difficult to imagine for us. All the CSIA material is available and taught in both official languages.

- ISIA stamp is offered the CSIA has not stopped this, but has made the process more in depth: https://www.snowpro.com/en/membership/isia

- currently CSIA qualifications feature in the education pathway for the CGSA (mechanized guiding) and are strongly recommended in the ACMG (mountain guiding) using either of these two bodies for avalanche/backcountry training would not be a leap.

- speed test - this already occurs in the US and NZ for the Card, no reason it couldn't here. (PSIA requirements attached) and

ISIA Stamp and Card Qualifications

Visit the post for more.

www.nzsia.org

- 2nd discipline, CSIA already administers membership for those with dual membership with the snowboard qualification and the heads of education work together on curriculum and verbiage to ensure a clear message across discipline, asking for 2nd discipline doesn't seem to much of an issue.

As for the race to the bottom I would agree this is PSIC's intent when working with snowshools. The goal at Whistler is to have bodies to throw into the grinder during busy periods.

Furthermore the PSIC run on a reseller model. The resort hosts the course and receives a $ amount per participant kick back from PSIC. The resort also hires the examiner and pays them through their own payroll. Johnny who paid for his gap program is a cash cow twice over now for the resort, firstly the training beforehand and now the qualification body will pay the resort for him being in their course. The resort can pay the examiner what they wish and PSIC provides material. They are a money making cooperation.

Currently none of the qualifications offered have any kind of objective testing. Subjective opinions of the examiner are all that is required to be successful. Testing and examining is hard on the candidates and bad for pass rates, so why bother?

 

[skipress]

If you are a non-EU/EFTA national your chances of getting a work permit to teach skiing in an alpine country are probably zero. Here in Switzerland, which is probably the easiest country for a non-EU/EFTA national to get a work permit “Only qualified non-EU/EFTA nationals, for example managers, specialists or university graduates with several years of professional experience, may work in Switzerland. https://www.ch.ch/en/foreign-nationals-in-switzerland/working-in-switzerland/#non-euefta-nationals

So even if your qualification is accepted, the Swiss Snowsports Association has a procedure for the evaluation and recognition of foreign qualifications https://www.snowsports.ch/de/ausbildung/internationale-einstufung.html#c14689 you won’t be able to get a work permit.

Before the UK left the EU Swiss ski schools, especially those owned by UK nationals used to employ lots of British level 2 instructors, this is no longer possible. As @skipress says it’s very unlikely that any EU nationals apart from maybe a few Irish will sign up for a PSIE training course so, that just leaves the Brits who will presumably be able to get jobs in Canada now that they are no longer allowed to work in the Alps.

Yep. I'm aware of one carte pro holder who wanted to deliver a coaching camp in the EU and applied for a permit. He was told in effect sure, so long as no EU, citizen, EFTA citizen can do this job then you're in, is that the case, no, thought not, bye.

Some of the Swiss schools might offer the PSIC/E product as part of their gap year programme but at least in the short term it's going to be tough for a Brit.

I'd be surprised if anyone Irish signed up as IASI is on the EU award databases which PSIC won't be. The only practical reason might be if the marketing is super slick [a chunk of the gap year market is well heeled parents finding something to occupy their 18 year old kids before university that doesn't involve drugs and backpacking in Thailand ]

Unknown really about the card, but I would imagine the full card would be their desire. Some things to consider about us Canadians:

- being bilingual is not uncommon with two official languages and a multitude of first nation languages recognized by provincial bodies. A requirement for the second language is not difficult to imagine for us. All the CSIA material is available and taught in both official languages.

- ISIA stamp is offered the CSIA has not stopped this, but has made the process more in depth: https://www.snowpro.com/en/membership/isia

- currently CSIA qualifications feature in the education pathway for the CGSA (mechanized guiding) and are strongly recommended in the ACMG (mountain guiding) using either of these two bodies for avalanche/backcountry training would not be a leap.

- speed test - this already occurs in the US and NZ for the Card, no reason it couldn't here. (PSIA requirements attached) and

ISIA Stamp and Card Qualifications

Visit the post for more.

www.nzsia.org

- 2nd discipline, CSIA already administers membership for those with dual membership with the snowboard qualification and the heads of education work together on curriculum and verbiage to ensure a clear message across discipline, asking for 2nd discipline doesn't seem to much of an issue.

As for the race to the bottom I would agree this is PSIC's intent when working with snowshools. The goal at Whistler is to have bodies to throw into the grinder during busy periods.

Furthermore the PSIC run on a reseller model. The resort hosts the course and receives a $ amount per participant kick back from PSIC. The resort also hires the examiner and pays them through their own payroll. Johnny who paid for his gap program is a cash cow twice over now for the resort, firstly the training beforehand and now the qualification body will pay the resort for him being in their course. The resort can pay the examiner what they wish and PSIC provides material. They are a money making cooperation.

Currently none of the qualifications offered have any kind of objective testing. Subjective opinions of the examiner are all that is required to be successful. Testing and examining is hard on the candidates and bad for pass rates, so why bother?

The race to the bottom is a worry. To be fair I've chatted with Perry and he seems a 'pro' [as is Derek T on the EU side]. However I've been in meetings with operators with a lot of pressure to the effect of lower your standards or else and the only response can be [park France ] taking a broad brush worldwide to deliver x, you need to be able to do Y and the formal direct contact training is usually between A and B in length, why is your resort or 'collective' any different.

The gap year model is an extraordinary cash cow - pay £$€ thousands for x weeks training [income for hoteliers, lift co and ski school] to attend a formal course that lasts [say] 3-5 days. Of course the weeks of work might be necessary if your market is folks who'd never normally in the scheme of things access formal instructor training......

As an examiner I have checklists to work through but you're right there remains a degree of judgement rather than measurement alone. I can throw a measured test for personal performance out there [let me get my body armour ready]... a speed test [yes you can argue about SL vs GS, %s of pacesetter, their FIS points and so on but it's a remarkably effective way of testing personal skiing skill].

You can easily 'train' a high performance ski racer to 'demonstrate' like a ski instructor, it takes way longer to get the high performance ski instructor to be a high performance ski racer. Yep I know, it's more complex than that but with a broad brush but if you want a quick and dirty way to say he has the tools to learn to ski well enough pass this award, that guy needs to come back next year it works.

 

[horsetwist]

Yep. I'm aware of one carte pro holder who wanted to deliver a coaching camp in the EU and applied for a permit. He was told in effect sure, so long as no EU, citizen, EFTA citizen can do this job then you're in, is that the case, no, thought not, bye.

Some of the Swiss schools might offer the PSIC/E product as part of their gap year programme but at least in the short term it's going to be tough for a Brit.

I'd be surprised if anyone Irish signed up as IASI is on the EU award databases which PSIC won't be. The only practical reason might be if the marketing is super slick [a chunk of the gap year market is well heeled parents finding something to occupy their 18 year old kids before university that doesn't involve drugs and backpacking in Thailand ]

The race to the bottom is a worry. To be fair I've chatted with Perry and he seems a 'pro' [as is Derek T on the EU side]. However I've been in meetings with operators with a lot of pressure to the effect of lower your standards or else and the only response can be [park France ] taking a broad brush worldwide to deliver x, you need to be able to do Y and the formal direct contact training is usually between A and B in length, why is your resort or 'collective' any different.

The gap year model is an extraordinary cash cow - pay £$€ thousands for x weeks training [income for hoteliers, lift co and ski school] to attend a formal course that lasts [say] 3-5 days. Of course the weeks of work might be necessary if your market is folks who'd never normally in the scheme of things access formal instructor training......

As an examiner I have checklists to work through but you're right there remains a degree of judgement rather than measurement alone. I can throw a measured test for personal performance out there [let me get my body armour ready]... a speed test [yes you can argue about SL vs GS, %s of pacesetter, their FIS points and so on but it's a remarkably effective way of testing personal skiing skill].

You can easily 'train' a high performance ski racer to 'demonstrate' like a ski instructor, it takes way longer to get the high performance ski instructor to be a high performance ski racer. Yep I know, it's more complex than that but with a broad brush but if you want a quick and dirty way to say he has the tools to learn to ski well enough pass this award, that guy needs to come back next year it works.

You aren't making any sense here and you are conflating multiple issues.

You say Swiss schools are going to offer PSIE as gap courses but it's going to be hard for Brits in the short term. I'm assuming you are talking about employment prospects. How will it be any harder than if they did BASI or IASI courses? Their employment in Europe is limited by their passport! And actually they will be MORE employable as they will have a MORE accepted qualification in the places they can actually work, like Whistler in Canada!

Then you talk about Irish IASI members. Why would they be disadvantaged? The European database you talk about only applies for the benefits of the delegated act, i.e. full level 4 with CTT. There is no other benefit. Do you know how many Irish trainees are currently going through the system with the intent of achieving this accreditation? It's about 1 per year! If that! It's a completely irrelevant number!

Then you talk about a race to the bottom, well this isn't relevant to PSIE/PSIC in Europe is it? Because ski schools don't have monopolies here, they freely compete against each other for customers, who can vote with their feet if they aren't happy with the training/ability/service that their instructor provides them.

If PSIE is a better educational system and produces better instructors, ski schools will hire them and be more successful, if the converse is true they will lose clients. This is not a race to the bottom.

And in the many countries mentioned in this thread where teaching is not regulated how can there be a race to the bottom? You can already employed instructors with NO qualifications! This is already "the bottom"!

Out of interest which national association are you an examiner for?

 

[skipress]

You aren't making any sense here and you are conflating multiple issues.

You say Swiss schools are going to offer PSIE as gap courses but it's going to be hard for Brits in the short term. I'm assuming you are talking about employment prospects. How will it be any harder than if they did BASI or IASI courses? Their employment in Europe is limited by their passport! And actually they will be MORE employable as they will have a MORE accepted qualification in the places they can actually work, like Whistler in Canada!

Then you talk about Irish IASI members. Why would they be disadvantaged? The European database you talk about only applies for the benefits of the delegated act, i.e. full level 4 with CTT. There is no other benefit. Do you know how many Irish trainees are currently going through the system with the intent of achieving this accreditation? It's about 1 per year! If that! It's a completely irrelevant number!

Then you talk about a race to the bottom, well this isn't relevant to PSIE/PSIC in Europe is it? Because ski schools don't have monopolies here, they freely compete against each other for customers, who can vote with their feet if they aren't happy with the training/ability/service that their instructor provides them.

If PSIE is a better educational system and produces better instructors, ski schools will hire them and be more successful, if the converse is true they will lose clients. This is not a race to the bottom.

And in the many countries mentioned in this thread where teaching is not regulated how can there be a race to the bottom? You can already employed instructors with NO qualifications! This is already "the bottom"!

Out of interest which national association are you an examiner for?

You could probably re read some of my comments:

I've differentiated between PSIC and PSIE:

• PSIC seems to be as a result of some specific Canadian conditions. Reported dis satisfaction with CSIA and so on [is the dissatisfaction legitimate, no idea], It seems to have buy in from a number of resorts of significance.
• PSIE appears to be marketing play to capitalise on English speaking gap year business. It's professional ski instructors of English rather than Europe.

In both cases they recognise each other and have recognition from some ski schools. I suspect at least in Europe the ski school is recognition primarily, probably at this point exclusively from ski schools that will 'sell' PSIE product. That may also be the case in Canada.

What they neither currently have is 'external' recognition from 'states', ISIA, IVSI and other awarding bodies. If someone calls [say] TSLV and asks if [say] NVVS courses are legitimate ultimately, tho TSLV might want to sell their own product they will recognise NVVS as legitimate. Currently that's not the case with PSIE/C. That might change but it's going to be an uphill road.

I didn't say that Irish candidates would be disadvantaged by completing PSIE courses, I asked why they would if they could do IASI courses which are currently recognised in the EU. Yes the number who'd complete to full cert level will be small, but they have the option. One which doesn't exist with PSIC/E and probably never will.

As to the Brits, yep as a result of a hilariously stupid act of self harm the EU is a much much colder place, but Canada and the US don't have free movement either.

As to the race to the bottom I specifically said that Perry [I think] and Derek [I know] are pros. They undoubtedly have professional standards.

Speaking more generally there can be a concern if businesses have too much leverage over awarding bodies [that's not a ski specific issue, there's a permanent tension between an employer who will inevitably want to drive down costs, or at times of high demand have more staff available and an awarding body that wants the highest possible standards]. it can be an issue in some ski schools [see comments above in this thread by 'hard days' and 'chris v'. It's a reason why a healthy distance between awarding body and employer can be a good thing.

I'm more than willing to be convinced that I'm missing stuff on the PSIC [or really E] side of things, but I wonder if that might be easier [and more productive] on zoom, phone or even over a beer