Pole length - It happened again!!!

[SnowbirdDevotee]

Why is this so hard? I've been skiing 45 years and consider myself an expert skier. Have been all over in all types of conditions.
I taught my two kids, their friends and many others to ski.
So we go to the ski rental or buy shops and get sized for poles. The "experts" there have them stand upright and size poles with a 90 degree angle. You don't want poles that are too long right?
Same thing happened yesterday sizing up my new son-in-law who is 6'1" and two inches taller than me. MY poles are the perfect size and now I notice his rental poles are about 4" shorter than mine. Of course, at the time I am outvoted in the "shop" by wife, daughter and rental guy, i don't know what i'm talked about.
Well, I know how to ski.
#1 - yes, you should stab the snow to initiate a turn with your elbows at "about" a 90 degree angle. You are in ski shop in shoes, add ski boots and ski that raises you up about 2" from ski shop test.
#2 - does anyone consider that there is a 0 degree angle to the slope in the ski shop test. Isn't even an intermediate slow about 20 degrees?

Here is the problem I've learned in skiing. It's ALL in the poles. If you don't have the pole snow stab right you will never get it! Watch any expert under the lifts and they are planting right. Even if the slope is so lame they don't really need to use their poles, they are using them as practice and habit, because they know how to ski right.

Now throw in some moguls or a steeper pitch and that is when you separate men from the posers. See if your poles are too short, what you will do is lean forward to make your stab, or hardly stab at all(because slope is too far away), and you will slide right to the side, losing your forward line. Once you do that you are a slider and not a skier.

This short pole situation becomes even worse in the moguls. You are on top of a mogul, you have to plant in the trough, down the slope, with a short pole it becomes impossible to PLANT without leaning over and forward and when you initiate your turn you go right to the side. Your forward progress is all over.

Sorry for rant , but I just compared my poles to rental poles- once again, I'm be skiing with an intermediate today will be bending too far forward to initiate his pole plant.

But what do I know?

 

[crgildart]

Best bump skiers use tiny poles and plant more on the moguls while skiing between them. New school carvers and racers don't even "plant" poles anymore. It's just a tap of the basket off to the side of them.

But, ya, I'm still old school at 5'9" PLANTing 46-48" poles out front to initiate every turn.

Here's what they call good technical skiing these days..

 

[François Pugh]

But what if you're half in the trough planting on the mogul top?
If the slope is 20 degrees, your body should be 20 degrees off vertical too.
What if you're deep in the powder?
If you're skiing fast planting a pole will break your wrist.

BTW, I agree the official standard method these days leaves you with a pole that's half a handwidth too short.

 

[SnowbirdDevotee]

Now let's do a little experiment. You have those poles they sized you up for. You plant your pole in shoes on flat land. No problem.
Now picture a 20-30 degree slope, maybe on top of a little bump. You lean forward to plant your left pole and reach downhill, what happens. You bend forward, and your shoulders and hips twist to the right! Hips twisting is ok, because an expert skier comes down the fall line with legs and maybe hips (if steep enough) twisting all over, but their shoulders ALWAYS stay perpendicular to fall line. Once the shoulders twist, it's all over!!! You are 99% more likely to have a too short rather than a too long pole and you will never learn to ski right because your shoulders will carry body across the hill instead of down the hill.

Anyway, Pocono skier has come West again and looking forward to a good day of skiing here at Keystone today. I'll watch my in training son-in-law struggle with "too short" poles and will hopefully convince him to trade them for the right size tomorrow. In any event it takes time on the hill to learn to ski.

Very Windy but a fresh 1" here at the bottom. There are ploughing the village which is always a good sign for good snow on the hill!

 

[Philpug]

Why is this so hard? I've been skiing 45 years and consider myself an expert skier. Have been all over in all types of conditions.
....
But what do I know?

Are we skiing the same way we did 45 years ago? Are ski (reaching arm straight up and pointing to wrist) this long still? No. We are skiing less up and down and more side to side. I am 5'11" and while I used to ski a 50" pole, I am skiing a 46-47" now. When measuring someone for poles, especially an older person who is set in their ways (not you of course ) I measyre 45* from the bottome of the forearm, not the top, this allows me to drop them down a bit. @Tricia was consulting with a local ski schools senior clinics and because the older skiers are getting shorter with age, she worked on getting them to get shorter poels and some of the things that were topping their progression were now gone.

 

[Ron]

At just under 6’ I use a 45” pole for groomers and a 47”pole for powder days.

 

[Eleeski]

I got some proper size poles and removed the strap style grips for the sabre type grip. Oops, I crushed the pole removing the grip and ended up at least 4" shorter. Still, I swapped the grip and went skiing on the ridiculously short poles. Wonderful!

Especially in the bumps. They encourage soft knees and reward good upper body position.

I was taking a lesson a while ago and the instructor chided me about my lazy pole use on the blue groomers. After watching my moguls, he said "you do know how to use your poles!"

Poles are critical in bumps and steeps. The short poles have less lever arm so you can apply force easier and with more control. This seems to help my arthritic shoulder.

I don't know if I'd purposely make my next pair too short but I'm in no hurry to replace these poles.

Eric

 

[Philpug]

I don't know if I'd purposely make my next pair too short but I'm in no hurry to replace these poles.

Eric

I keep cutting mine down and they are still to short. Bah dah DUMP. Thanks, I will be here all week, try the veal and don't forget to tip your server.

 

[at_nyc]

In computer software engineering circle, we have a saying: GIGA :Garbage In, Garbage Out".

In my old profession, we have a more formal name for this. It's call "improper modeling". Meaning, you can have all your math perfect, but if you have the starting setup NOT reflecting the reality you're trying to capture, your math-perfect result is useless.

The street shoe pole length "model" is an empirical formula, meaning it's not math perfect but has been proved to work.

Now, let's examine the "model" of our OP:

1) "Skier, once in boots and add ski height, will be several inches higher than standing on street shoes."

Once in boots, while skiing, the skier will have bend knees, and also slightly bend hip. Both resulting the skier being LOWER than standing upright in street shoes. That quite likely will just take away the height difference.

2) "The slope is always tilting down, so where you plant your pole will be lower"

Does it really? Do you have a upright stance with respect to the horizon? Or should it be "vertical" to the slope angle, i.e. leaning downhill the same angle as the slope tilts down?

3) "Elbow at 90 degree angle"

I've seen expert skiers doing their poles with LESS or MORE than 90 degree angle on their elbow. It appears to be a personal choice. Some people have a "lazy" low hand position using short poles, other hold their hand up high with long poles. The former looks "lazy" and the latter looks a bit odd. But looking carefully at where the POLE LANDS with respect to their skis, all good skiers plant their pole the same spot! In other words, you can change the elbow angle without affecting the upper body position.

I've gone down 2" from "traditional length" and like it. But when I rent, I don't argue about the pole length, I found I can simply hold my poles higher so I can still plant to the same spot AND keep the same body position.

 

[Uncle-A]

This short pole situation becomes even worse in the moguls. You are on top of a mogul, you have to plant in the trough, down the slope, with a short pole it becomes impossible to PLANT without leaning over and forward and when you initiate your turn you go right to the side. Your forward progress is all over.

When I use to ski bumps I would ski a 46" pole and at 47 on other trails and still use that length today. At 6' 1or 2" I find it just fine. The part of this quote about leaning forward is not what I have found, but in my experience it shows that you may not be bending your knees as much as needed in that circumstance. If you go to plant your pole and miss the plant you should probably bend your knees more, a pole that is too long makes you stand up too much. I would not consider myself an expert any longer at my age and I have never been a very technical skier but a pole that is too long is just uncomfortable for me.

 

[HDSkiing]

If you watch any racer, particularly an elite one, pole plants or stabs are notably absent. I think it could be agreed that these racers are at an “expert level” and most of the terrain they race on would be at least a Blue run.

A few of us at our Ski School have been playing around with this and I find that I get “locked” into a carve earlier in the turn without the pole plant. The higher the speed the more this is true, the reason, at least in my case is I found that by planting I was inducing some, although minimal, upper body rotation that required me to do something else to re-establish the high edge angle I was seeking out, delaying reaching it in the process. A blocking rotation pole plant is sometimes desired, (moguls/steeps/trees?) but at other times it may hamper you.

So how does this relate to pole length? I would argue that it’s more the motion of what you do with the pole than whether or not the tip actually touches the snow. Poles, or more accurately the motion of it help with balance and are key to to initiating the turn. From this perspective a slightly shorter pole is probably desirable.

I teach a lot of kids how to ski, and until about level 5 we don’t even use poles, generally true with adults but I give them poles sooner for the lift lines etc. When we do start using them I often have them hold them in the middle so they are going through the motion of the plant/swing without without stabbing for golphers as I like to tell them. From there we work on reaching for the plant, this helps them get forward into a more centered stance, again the plant is not emphasized. My anecdotal observation is that shorter is preferable.

As for pole sizing, the 90* angle of the forearm to the floor with the pole upside down held just under the basket is simply a rule of thumb. From there I would err on the shorter rather than the longer length, but that’s just me.

 

[Sibhusky]

Apparently my poles are too long. 5'8", 48". Who knew? I've had them over 35 years.

 

[albertanskigirl]

I've been finding that I want shorter and shorter poles - especially on steeps and bumps. I just finished a 4 week lesson series, and we worked a lot on (sorry for butchering ski terminology) compression in bumps, and angulation, and on timing pole plants etc, and I was finding my poles were too long for me to get into the right position. I'm 5'8" and my poles right now are 120 cm, but I might drop another 5 cm.

 

[Philpug]

Apparently my poles are too long. 5'8", 48". Who knew? I've had them over 35 years.

Again, are you skiing the same way as you were 35 years ago?

Are you as tall as you were 35 years ago? Many of us loose up to an inch in our advancing years.

 

[Sibhusky]

Probably. To be fair, the baskets have been inching up the poles, so they might function a bit short. I think there's at least 4.5 inches under the baskets these days.

I think maybe I'm down .25-.5"

Again, are you skiing the same way as you were 35 years ago?

Are you as tall as you were 35 years ago? Many of us loose up to an inch in our advancing years.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I agree with Phil (Tricia by implication) and HD. Many err on the side of having poles that are too long rather than too short. The timing of pole use is important. Many trigger edge change by reaching the pole downhill while their bodies are still uphill inside the old turn. These folk prefer long poles for an obvious reason. Elite skiers use their feet to change edges, move body into neutral over the skis, then the flexion of the new inside leg drops the pole down to the snow without having to reach for contact.

 

[Sibhusky]

I'd be willing to try shorter poles if I could move the grips. But not going to cut them, the operative word is "try".

 

[Philpug]

I'd be willing to try shorter poles if I could move the grips. But not going to cut them, the operative word is "try".

There are some great adjustable options out there, try some.

 

[graham418]

I'm 5' - 8" and had been using 47" for a long time. After a comment someone made a couple of years ago, I cut a bit moe off , now 46". It feels much better ( who knew an inch could make so much difference.) After reading a few of these comments , i wonder i should cut another inch off?

 

[flbufl]

I recently got this Black Crows long foam grip poles. Less fiddling comparing the to adjustable poles

There are some great adjustable options out there, try some.