Passenger All-Weather Tires with 3PMSF aka "4season" tires discussion

[Sibhusky]

Article on tires tested for ice

Recognizing This Tire Symbol Might Save Your Life This Winter

We dive deep into the standardized tire test that might make all of us a little safer on winter roads

www.outsideonline.com

 

[nay]

Article on tires tested for ice

Recognizing This Tire Symbol Might Save Your Life This Winter

We dive deep into the standardized tire test that might make all of us a little safer on winter roads

www.outsideonline.com

This is the key:

First published in 2021, the resulting International Organization for Standardization (ISO) 19447 test specifies a course that, “shall be flat, smooth, polished ice and watered at least 1 hour before testing.” Air temperatures measured 3.3 feet above the surface must be between 5 and 39 degrees Fahrenheit, while the surface of the ice itself must be between 5 and 23 degrees. The standard also instructs that weather conditions like precipitation, blowing snow, and direct sunlight must be avoided.

I say this all the time that cold dry textured ice in a continental climate like Colorado is completely different than ice that is “polished, smooth, and watered”, which you might encounter in an arctic climate driving on lakes or in a maritime climate. If you don’t drive on ice that is polished, smooth, and watered it might not be all that relevant to buy a tire designed for that.

Assuming that performance makes it superior in all conditions….is false. It makes it superior in those conditions.

The article also says that a tire manufactures testing symbol for 3PMSF is “useless” but a tire manufactures testing symbol for ice “might save your life”. And that studs are worn and almost useless with 1,000 km on dry pavement. Ummm…that’s not how modern studs work.

Ice rated tires are a good idea though, even though you are still just trusting a tire manufacturer to not put that symbol on a tire that shouldn’t have it. Kinda exactly like that other symbol.

 

[snwbrdr]

This is the key:

First published in 2021, the resulting International Organization for Standardization (ISO) 19447 test specifies a course that, “shall be flat, smooth, polished ice and watered at least 1 hour before testing.” Air temperatures measured 3.3 feet above the surface must be between 5 and 39 degrees Fahrenheit, while the surface of the ice itself must be between 5 and 23 degrees. The standard also instructs that weather conditions like precipitation, blowing snow, and direct sunlight must be avoided.

I say this all the time that cold dry textured ice in a continental climate like Colorado is completely different than ice that is “polished, smooth, and watered”, which you might encounter in an arctic climate driving on lakes or in a maritime climate. If you don’t drive on ice that is polished, smooth, and watered it might not be all that relevant to buy a tire designed for that.

Assuming that performance makes it superior in all conditions….is false. It makes it superior in those conditions.

The article also says that a tire manufactures testing symbol for 3PMSF is “useless” but a tire manufactures testing symbol for ice “might save your life”. And that studs are worn and almost useless with 1,000 km on dry pavement. Ummm…that’s not how modern studs work.

Ice rated tires are a good idea though, even though you are still just trusting a tire manufacturer to not put that symbol on a tire that shouldn’t have it. Kinda exactly like that other symbol.

The 3PMSF for the European market is based on braking test also, instead of an acceleration test for the US/Canada 3PMSF test. A 3PMSF tire that is sold in both EU and US/Canada, I would have more faith in.

Arctic climates are don't have your typical freshly Zamboni'd ice skating rink ice, since it's usually colder than that, which, a water layer ice is actually slipperier than cold, dry ice, which like ski tuning, you want to have enough friction in the base/wax to generate a layer of water in between the ski base on the surface beneath. Having a too warm of a wax for the conditions means you don't generate the water layer, and thus your glide is bad.

On a studless nordic winter tire, you have more siping to have more opportunities to cut through the water layer and grip the ice itself.

But a studless central european and its close cousin, the Euro All-season (aka All-weather), tend not to have as aggressive siping, as too much tread squirm is bad on dry-cold conditions, so the Central European and All-weathers won't have the Ice-rating symbol, just like the Truck AT tires won't have the Ice-rating symbol either.

 

[snwbrdr]

Nokian Tyres Unveils Remedy to Problem Faced by Three in Four North American Drivers / Nokian Tires

DAYTON, Tenn. – Three in four American and Canadian drivers say they feel unsafe driving in winter. ...

www.nokiantires.com

Interestingly enough, certain online tire companies were selling these before the press release of the tires.

 

[James]

About time! WRG5 vs CC2?

 

[pete]

maybe wrong thread but slowing down to go back to ones lane is sometimes the best thing to do ...

Subaru WRX Driver Overtakes a Truck, Slams Into a Snowplow, Car Gets Sliced in Two

NYSDOT uploaded a video of a Subaru WRX slamming into a snowplow on a road covered in snow. Luckily, nobody was injured in the crash

www.autoevolution.com

 

[cantunamunch]

maybe wrong thread but slowing down to go back to ones lane is sometimes the best thing to do ...

Subaru WRX Driver Overtakes a Truck, Slams Into a Snowplow, Car Gets Sliced in Two

NYSDOT uploaded a video of a Subaru WRX slamming into a snowplow on a road covered in snow. Luckily, nobody was injured in the crash

www.autoevolution.com

Saw something similar on Saturday on Rte 30 westbound in PA. Nice road but not trivial in a snowstorm at 9F with lots of rolling hills and a couple of switchback zones.

The moron (with his lights off) passed like 4 of us and panicked when he saw oncoming lights. He didn't slam INTO the snowplow going our way but did spin into the median. Just a big puff of white; dunno if his rear window got punched in by the snowplow throw or if it was just his airbags going off.

FWIW, none of us stopped. Screw that.


#idiotswillidiot

 

[jmeb]

Joining the All-Weather club. Just ordered some CrossClimate2s for the new-to-us-Subaru. I'll be interested to A/B the 2012 Outback with these vs the FWD Sienna with true snows (X-Ice.)

We had no intention of keeping the Subaru (mothers old car), but at 190k, the break even of selling it vs the family renting a car for skiing and mountain adventures for a week the 3-4x a year they come to visit over the next couple of years. And we can guarantee them a snow-ready vehicle.

 

[snwbrdr]

With the introduction of the Nokian Remedy WR G5...

The WR G4 is now under the Nordman line, of old tires given new life under their economy banner.

Nordman Solstice 4 / Nordman

Nordman Solstice 4 is an all-weather tire for passenger cars, SUV's and crossovers. All weather tires for your direction.

www.nordmantires.com

But not all sizes are reused though

 

[James]

That would be a good way to save money. ^

 

[snwbrdr]

That would be a good way to save money. ^

That's how Continental saves money with the General Altimax Arctic line, they give new life to old Gislaved tire molds

The original Arctics were Gislaved NordFrost 3. The current Arctic 12's are Gislaved Nordfrost 100

Even Gislaved benefits from Continental's ownership, their SoftFrost 200 are old Continental ExtremeWinterContacts

 

[James]

I think the whole Russia debacle delayed many of their tire upgrades. Plus they lost tons of their product and labor.

——————-
Nokian last year [2022] lost 80% of its annual passenger car tyre production after sanctions against Moscow stopped exports, and the Finnish company later sold its Russian business to PJSC Tatneft for 285 million euros ($313.9 million).
————————

https://www.reuters.com/business/finlands-nokian-tyres-q1-loss-bigger-than-expected-russia-exit-hurts-2023-04-25/

The Ukraine War Changed this Company Forever
NY Times July 5, 2023

 

[pete]

found a tire review site that's an interesting read, handfuls of reviews.

I crossed some Sumitomo's and wondered if there were any comparisons with the X-ice Michelins:

Sumitomo Ice Edge Vs Michelin X Ice Snow - SnowyTires

Both the Michelin X Ice Snow and the Sumitomo Ice Edge showcase exceptional winter performance, each emphasizing different features and setting distinct

snowytires.com

and while reviews reuse general discriptions, there was one comparing the X-ice to my trucks Altimax snows:

General Altimax Arctic 12 Vs Michelin X Ice Snow - SnowyTires

The Michelin X Ice Snow and General Altimax Arctic 12 both embody the epitome of winter tire technology, each with unique merits in performance, energy

snowytires.com

actual test data would be great, but still interesting

 

[cosmoliu]

Some new entries to challenge the CC2. He didn't comment on presence or absence of the 3PMSF stamp on the sidewall of the newcomers.

 

[James]

Don’t buy the asymmetric tires aren’t good in snow. The Nokian WRG series has been asymmetric and is very good in snow. I suppose if the WRG5 comes out and is symmetric, it’ll be an interesting story.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I had Yokohama "all seasons" on my Jeep Wrangler unlimited and did quite amazing. They were duratracs.

 

[Henry]

In the tire (excuse me, tyre) test video above some are not, or not yet, available in North America. Do the tire companies make different tires for different markets, or the same tires with different names? I'm sure some of both. I'll be ready for new tires in a couple of years, and I want all-weathers with both the snow & the ice symbols. Continental's only current all-weather North America offering is a cargo van tire.

Studs comment above...several years ago I guy I worked with lived on the coast in Norway above the Arctic Circle. He said that the standard practice there, and then, was to take the winter tires to the local shop for new studs with sharp edges and suitable length at the start of every winter.

Even Colorado ice, or the Wyoming ice I'm more familiar with, will be polished slick at intersections where about a thousand cars have spun their tires before I get there.

 

[pete]

In the tire (excuse me, tyre) test video above some are not, or not yet, available in North America. Do the tire companies make different tires for different markets, or the same tires with different names? I'm sure some of both. I'll be ready for new tires in a couple of years, and I want all-weathers with both the snow & the ice symbols. Continental's only current all-weather North America offering is a cargo van tire.

Studs comment above...several years ago I guy I worked with lived on the coast in Norway above the Arctic Circle. He said that the standard practice there, and then, was to take the winter tires to the local shop for new studs with sharp edges and suitable length at the start of every winter.

Even Colorado ice, or the Wyoming ice I'm more familiar with, will be polished slick at intersections where about a thousand cars have spun their tires before I get there.

from my readings it's a mix of all the above. Different tires for different markets, same tire rebranded, etc.

I read that Nokian has different lines for Scandinavian countries that plow fewer roads verses middle Europe where roads are typically plowed, so either different compound or pattern.

I just picked up some Pirelli's AS Plus 3's (maybe should of gotten Weather Active) but considered the Michelin LTX's .. which if at Sams or Costco, are pegged X LT's ... supposedly same tire but branded for the "clubs".

 

[pete]

So a side comment I pondered given I just bought (but need to have installed) some Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3s ...

They're coming with road hazard (effectively free) but pondered if anyone considered a 5th rim, an extra tire, just in case of a dead tire. Simply rotate between the 4 and if every 5K, wear not likely an issue. I suppose 6 would be better.

Generally it's a nit as I only once had a dead tire that couldn't be repaired and didn't have issues with getting one. But AWD today with sensors and such seem more picky on matching for wear .. or at least the dealers holding a harder stand on replacing at least 2 if one dies and mileage is up.

plus on longer trips (at least with a bigger vehicle) one has a full size spare if they care to haul it.

 

[raytseng]

So a side comment I pondered given I just bought (but need to have installed) some Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3s ...

They're coming with road hazard (effectively free) but pondered if anyone considered a 5th rim, an extra tire, just in case of a dead tire. Simply rotate between the 4 and if every 5K, wear not likely an issue. I suppose 6 would be better.

Generally it's a nit as I only once had a dead tire that couldn't be repaired and didn't have issues with getting one. But AWD today with sensors and such seem more picky on matching for wear .. or at least the dealers holding a harder stand on replacing at least 2 if one dies and mileage is up.

plus on longer trips (at least with a bigger vehicle) one has a full size spare if they care to haul it.

Depends what you are optimizing for.
Most tires on modern cars you only want to rotate front/rear. Doing a crossswap or a 5th tire rotation is an old school procedure that maybe more frugal in tirewear but gives up a lot of performance during that transition while the reversed tires wear back in to get full contact. That extra mileage is not free. Many high performance brands even explicitly no longer recommend a crossswap. If you get into an accident due to poor traction, when better tires could've saved you that is much more expensive than eeking out 5% extra life out of tires.

If you're going 6 tires, why not just wait to buy the 5/6 pair only when you run into an issue. So it's like a warranty you don't have to buy.
The final point is the age of tires. If you're committing to rotating in 5/6 you're extending more years you want to be on this set and model of tires, rather than going for shorter stint and fresh rubber (in terms of years) and maybe something new and better will come to market.

That being said, if you have a fullsize spare for reserve, it is a common thing to save the best of the old set to mount onto the spare rim, and throw out the old spare reserve tire, even if it was unused.