There are lots of ways to ski a direct line. On the video you highlighted, there's very little speed control from driving the tips into the bump. The vast majority of speed control for that video is from skidding down the backside. There's another style where people try to point the ski down the hill until the tips contact the front of the bump, then once the tip starts driving into the bump the tails swing around. It gives a little more of a carve look. Those advocates say, don't just throw your skis to the side, but be patient. I believe Martin is this style. I could show you still frame comparisons, but I'm too lazy. I'm on vacation. Among these great direct line skiers, they will compare and contrast their styles as much as we compare direct vs non direct skiing. For this particular situation, I don't know how much is just individual style, conditions, or new school vs old school.
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Moguls - tips to target
- Thread starter recbumper
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There are lots of ways to ski a direct line. On the video you highlighted, there's very little speed control from driving the tips into the bump. The vast majority of speed control for that video is from skidding down the backside. There's another style where people try to point the ski down the hill until the tips contact the front of the bump, then once the tip starts driving into the bump the tails swing around. It gives a little more of a carve look. Those advocates say, don't just throw your skis to the side, but be patient. I believe Martin is this style. I could show you still frame comparisons, but I'm too lazy. I'm on vacation. Among these great direct line skiers, they will compare and contrast their styles as much as we compare direct vs non direct skiing. For this particular situation, I don't know how much is just individual style, conditions, or new school vs old school.
G I would respectfully disagree there about any kind of tail impact in Perrine's skiing
<where on earth did the comma and period disappear to on my ipad keyboard??>
She's the world champion and she's been practicing her entire career to get early & exclusively onto the front of the ski and to avoid tail impact at all costs / She could have it happen as part of a mistake of course but it is highly likely that she isnt actually contacting the bump with the tails
Here's a video of some more of Perrine's skiing with some different camera angles
I think in the first clip you may have been reading too much into the pictures
I think what you may be seeing is the last splitsecond before the tips touch / She is slready pulling weightshifting and kneerolling right at that moment and the tails are actually most likely never touching
This is an example of how mogul skiing is so lightning fast in action that it's really hard to decipher the technique…
<where on earth did the comma and period disappear to on my ipad keyboard??>
She's the world champion and she's been practicing her entire career to get early & exclusively onto the front of the ski and to avoid tail impact at all costs / She could have it happen as part of a mistake of course but it is highly likely that she isnt actually contacting the bump with the tails
Here's a video of some more of Perrine's skiing with some different camera angles
I think in the first clip you may have been reading too much into the pictures
I think what you may be seeing is the last splitsecond before the tips touch / She is slready pulling weightshifting and kneerolling right at that moment and the tails are actually most likely never touching
This is an example of how mogul skiing is so lightning fast in action that it's really hard to decipher the technique…
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In the first vid from French TV there's actually a spot where a mistake like this happens
It's at about 1:24 and a half secs up thru 1:25
She makes a mistake on a turn and her weightshift onto the right ski is a little Late / As a result her left ski taps a tail on the left bumpface (looker's right) and she goes thru it but 2 turns later it messes up her balance and she has to make a big armwave to recover from the mistake & tail 2 turns before
This is a classic thing to see in bumps where a mistake or Late shift causes a skier to blow up 2 turns later
But this is Perrine so she recovers and goes back into her beautiful Early skiing
This is also why we were working with the tips-to-target drill so our peeps would feel over &over thru many individual turns what Early feels like and how to get it
It's at about 1:24 and a half secs up thru 1:25
She makes a mistake on a turn and her weightshift onto the right ski is a little Late / As a result her left ski taps a tail on the left bumpface (looker's right) and she goes thru it but 2 turns later it messes up her balance and she has to make a big armwave to recover from the mistake & tail 2 turns before
This is a classic thing to see in bumps where a mistake or Late shift causes a skier to blow up 2 turns later
But this is Perrine so she recovers and goes back into her beautiful Early skiing
This is also why we were working with the tips-to-target drill so our peeps would feel over &over thru many individual turns what Early feels like and how to get it
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This is also why the Mogul Wedge is such a helpful fundamental starting point because it slows everything down and also shows the turn geometry very clearly
In the Mogul Wedge <at first when learning> you ski the full semicircle of the turn and each time when you shift onto the new ski at the top of the turn and roll the knee in you ask yourself Am I really truly 100% shifted / and Am I truly shifted instantly at the top of the turn or did it actually take me til a chunk of time (and a bit of distance thru space along the turn arc) to get fully shifted // and What does it truly Feel like to be Early
…and so on
sorry for all these walls-of-text
In the Mogul Wedge <at first when learning> you ski the full semicircle of the turn and each time when you shift onto the new ski at the top of the turn and roll the knee in you ask yourself Am I really truly 100% shifted / and Am I truly shifted instantly at the top of the turn or did it actually take me til a chunk of time (and a bit of distance thru space along the turn arc) to get fully shifted // and What does it truly Feel like to be Early
…and so on
sorry for all these walls-of-text
Deer Park 2020. This bump shows the skis clearly throughout the over the bump. The skis slide down the face of the previous bump, the skis behind the feet reach the ridge of the upcoming bump and are constrained. The feet (where the CoM is operating through) are predominantly forward of that constraint so the CoM still flowing down the hill torques the ski clockwise (looking from above). The tips move sideways into air before moving downwards.
To me the mechanics for the initiation of the turn for most of the bumps in the 2020 run looks the same. It's different towards the end of the run where the skis hardly deviate from the fall line.
It's the same story for the 2021 run at Deer Park. Scroll frame by frame back and forth through the turn at 20.5 (per the event clock in bottom right corner) and again at 21.3 where the are clear views of the skis.
I think this is an example of the tail hit and the ill effects of the clockwise rotation from the tail.
She is Late on the turn here (should already be shifted to left ski). She's Late, so she hasn't started the knee roll yet (which gets the tails out of the way). The inside tail gets constrained by the bump and knocked off true (tip pushed clockwise like you say).
This causes all kinds of problems thru the next couple of turns which you can see
But she's actually not too worried about it because the bottom air is coming up. After a couple of rough recovery turns she uses a snowplow to smooth out the balance and brake to her desired jump speed and then throws the air.
Anyway that's my silly 2c. I'll see if I can go bug Casey or somebody and get their thinking on what those ruts feel like and if they cause nasty tail hookup or if they even like em and how they handle 'em...
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While I am waiting for my Chuck Marin Mogullogic DVD to arrive, I searched for "Mogul Wedge" and found very little.
@recbumper do you have any links at hand?
@recbumper do you have any links at hand?
Chuck Martin shows Mogul Wedge
at 5:00
I'll dig up some more examples also
at 5:00
I'll dig up some more examples also
Step Up Bumps
Wedge at 0:40-1:30 (Step 1)
Helpful funny fingers pointing to remind to weightshift, and also showing typical mistakes
-------------------------------------
Aiko Uemura has a really systematic progression.
< translation error - she writes Flats Barn, she means Flats Turn >
Mogul Wedge at 3:00
then over the course of the tape she shows major elements of the progression on from the wedge
Main turn is based on Wedge at 6:40, and again at 10:45
--------------------------------------
Wedge at 0:40-1:30 (Step 1)
Helpful funny fingers pointing to remind to weightshift, and also showing typical mistakes
-------------------------------------
Aiko Uemura has a really systematic progression.
< translation error - she writes Flats Barn, she means Flats Turn >
Mogul Wedge at 3:00
then over the course of the tape she shows major elements of the progression on from the wedge
Main turn is based on Wedge at 6:40, and again at 10:45
--------------------------------------
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Does the same thing on the bump at 20.5 without the ski getting knocked out of line. And same for the one above... And the same... Anyway, if you talk to these folk show 'em the vid and just ask them.
Bouncing the tails off bumps is pretty easy. Anyone who can ski a half reasonable line can do it. (But not at at the speed and style of these comp mogul skiers.) Just make sure feet are forward of the part of the ski that comes in contact with the bump. This was a tip from BigPictureSkiing and a very useful one. Can be done at low speeds and a much easier thing to learn than stuffing the tips into the face of the bump for speed control.
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So good these progressions!
> Anyway, if you talk to these folk show 'em the vid and just ask them
Today I asked Glenn Eddy, who coached Troy & team for the Olympics.
Glenn said, "So the best tactic is to allow the ski to ride patiently to the next mogul with the tips leading and not reach for the face of the next mogul with your feet. With that the skis will not get so far across the hill and stuck in the ruts. When the tips contact the next mogul you quickly “pull” your feet back while simultaneously moving to hips forward and roll the knees over to the next turn. Ben Cavet does it pretty well if you watch the video from this year at Deer Valley."
Hope this is helpful
Today I asked Glenn Eddy, who coached Troy & team for the Olympics.
Glenn said, "So the best tactic is to allow the ski to ride patiently to the next mogul with the tips leading and not reach for the face of the next mogul with your feet. With that the skis will not get so far across the hill and stuck in the ruts. When the tips contact the next mogul you quickly “pull” your feet back while simultaneously moving to hips forward and roll the knees over to the next turn. Ben Cavet does it pretty well if you watch the video from this year at Deer Valley."
Hope this is helpful
Can you expand a bit more on the "scooping" concept. I think you are just describing the way the skis travel th trough and the camber pushes back and accelerates it a bit into the front of the next bump? I know this is not something to "do" but rather something that happens right?
Good observation. And the only way the tails can pivot there is if she is absorbed and pressuring the front of the skis and starting to change directions so the tails can break free.
> the "scooping" concept. I think you are just describing the way the skis travel th trough and the camber pushes back and accelerates it a bit into the front of the next bump? I know this is not something to "do" but rather something that happens right?
Yes, exactly like you say.
I called it scooping cause it's the ski taking that path and you totally do not have time to look down and see what's happening but suddenly the ski is coming back up from underneath to meet you. It feels really cool. You can also feel some nice grind on the inside front tip edge cause that's the edge that's engaged, so you are feeling the camber and the edge grind and you know that both of these are getting you nice speed control as well as that cool feel of the ski tracking the contour of the bump. The scooping happens all on its own once you have the other components of your turn & balance working well.
Yes, exactly like you say.
I called it scooping cause it's the ski taking that path and you totally do not have time to look down and see what's happening but suddenly the ski is coming back up from underneath to meet you. It feels really cool. You can also feel some nice grind on the inside front tip edge cause that's the edge that's engaged, so you are feeling the camber and the edge grind and you know that both of these are getting you nice speed control as well as that cool feel of the ski tracking the contour of the bump. The scooping happens all on its own once you have the other components of your turn & balance working well.
For sure there's different ways for the CoM to proceed more or less straight down the fall line. And this idea of bending the tips into the oncoming bumps for speed control has been in discussion for at least as long as I've been part of this forum. And most likely for preceding decades.
Have been a sceptic about it in the past. Now and again have taken the opportunity to keep the skis pointed down the fall line to check it out. None of which was particularly re-assuring about its usefulness for speed control. Around mid last year BigPictureSkiing had a number of vids on the topic that provided more insight and more detail on specific movements to achieve. But there's a caveat - speed control from "wedging" tips into the bump (BPS term for it - nothing to do with pizza) results in a higher cadence than skiers may be comfortable with.
Which imposes limits on terrain where the technique is appropriate for any given skier. Thinking of this like pure carving on steeper and steeper pitches. At some point of steepness (and path dictated by gates or environment) pure carving is no longer effective for line and speed control. That point will be reached by some sooner than others. Even mogul legends get their skis sideways.
Chuck on the steeps:
Nelson
Recbumper's point of view has been refreshing. Was happy to say they did something else when the conditions were challenging. Posts vids of best mogul skiers in the world skiing lines sideways.
I thought this video was interesting. Shows former Olympian John Smart skiing the olympic mogul course.
Initially starts slow with the skis perpendicular to the slope for couple turns, then gets pointed mostly downhill and maintains speed control. He starts to skim toward the end without a lot of absorption and speeds up.
Initially starts slow with the skis perpendicular to the slope for couple turns, then gets pointed mostly downhill and maintains speed control. He starts to skim toward the end without a lot of absorption and speeds up.
This cute, tough as nails, thin as a twig (but could probably break us like twigs) direct line mogul skier:
says that this type of angulation in direct line mogul skiing is incorrect, i.e., denominated by a "Thumbs Down":
says that this type of angulation in direct line mogul skiing is incorrect, i.e., denominated by a "Thumbs Down":
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