Moguls - tips to target

[recbumper]

Was reading the other thread & figured would start a new one on the mogul targets topic.

We have a gang of recreational mogul skiers and are mostly over at Ski Liberty in the mid-Atlantic. We had several new folks jump into the bumps this year and we were using Chuck Martin's tips-to-the-target drill to help them learn. The new folks liked it a lot because it showed them how to start to go much more direct. The tips-to-target drill helped a couple of them make noticeable breakthroughs in their mogul skiing within a couple of days and then continue to build on that thru the end of the season. <just closed a week or so ago darnit. Time to head north haha>

You have to have some of the basics in place first (learned in flats) before you can use tips-to-target. You have to know (and be able to) to start the turn with an Early weightshift right at the top of the turn (no apex-shifters and no bottom-half-of-turn-tailbraking shifters - y'all go back to the flats to practice Early first). You have to know to get the ski on edge with shin pressure+knee roll and then stand on the ski & be patient while it makes its own turn with its own edge (no pivoting/tailpushing). And you have to know to have your hands up & forward & chest & vision up. Once you have those basics you can start trying the tips-to-target drill.

For the tips-to-target drill, you pick a set of moguls that you're gonna ski (1, 2, 20+, random or orderly, doesn't matter). The moguls can be pretty much any shape. Somebody goes down and marks the target on each bump by drawing a cross in the face of each bump. A decent learning position for the target is about 2.5 feet down from the shoulder line of each bump, about 1/3 of the way up from the lower corner (or 2/3 of the way down from the bump's peak). See pic below. Then the learner skis the set of moguls. They use the target for 2 purposes. First, they point the tips of their skis at the target on each bump. They try to hit each target with the ski tips. Second, when their boots' toe-piece reaches each target (which happens a moment later than the ski tips), that is when they start their weightshift. (Of course the actual weightshift takes a certain interval of time, so what this produces is the learner gets their weight fully onto their new ski pretty much correctly just slightly before the crest - but they have to start the shift before then cause it takes time for them to complete the shift after they begin it)

A couple of notes
- Don't try this with learners on a steep bump pitch. I only used this particular photo cause it's the only one I have to hand at the moment. This is actually our main steep big-bump line in the pic. If somebody has a photo of lower-angle bumps, or weird&wacky shaped bumps post it up here and I'll put in some suggested targets. We mostly did this with our beginners on quite wacky shaped bumps without any regular lines and it worked fine for them to learn
- The crosses are black in the pic from Powerpoint. In real life the crosses are just marked by drawing in the snow with your skipole. The targets get messed up as each skier goes thru them so you have to mark them again for each learner
- I put the targets in the pic about 2-2.5 feet before the bump shoulders. For very early beginners you can put the targets more like 3 feet before the shoulder (because their weightshift time interval is longer, so they need more time to complete the shift, so you give 'em more distance which equals more time for them, if that makes sense).

This drill made a really big difference for our new folks and we got several of them really skiing solid sections that they couldn't handle at all a few days/weeks before.

 

[Noodler]

My concern with this approach is that any discussion of "line" for mogul skiing tends to make skiers think they have to come up with an entire line before they venture into the moguls. Good mogul skiers are only looking 2, maybe 3 bumps ahead at any given time through the moguls. Natural mogul fields are rarely consistent/regular, you have to have the skills to adjust your turn shape at will and adapt to whatever is thrown at you or you end up being a "hunt and peck" mogul skier that can only ski a handful of moguls at a time because you're trying to pre-plan your line.

That's not to say there isn't any value in tips-to-target. Clearly you're having success with this and I attended a Mogul Logic camp many moons ago (along with mini-camps at MJ and Copper). What I learned over many years is that technique trumps tactics when it really comes down to skiing bumps well. It's good to understand the tactics, but if you're going to ski bumps with a decent amount of speed, you need the skills and the fitness.

 

[jack97]

My concern with this approach is that any discussion of "line" for mogul skiing tends to make skiers think they have to come up with an entire line before they venture into the moguls. Good mogul skiers are only looking 2, maybe 3 bumps ahead at any given time through the moguls. Natural mogul fields are rarely consistent/regular, you have to have the skills to adjust your turn shape at will and adapt to whatever is thrown at you or you end up being a "hunt and peck" mogul skier that can only ski a handful of moguls at a time because you're trying to pre-plan your line.

As mentioned, this is a drill to promote accuracy of one's decent down that trail. Skills and techniques needs to be developed for those who are new to skiing a direct line. IMO, once you have a good grasp of them, going down a natural field will be easier. Further, you can make lines out of ones that are crappy because the rhythm or cadence will be ingrained into muscle memory.

 

[recbumper]

Also, for clarity, this is one of Chuck's technique drills. It's teaching where to aim the tips on each individual bump, and how to develop the feel of how connect that to weight shift, knee angle, impact timing, etc. This is not a tactics drill (i.e. path choice over multiple bumps down a pitch section).

 

[Sanity]

Thanks for all the info Recbumper. Do you have any video of you or your crew implementing these techniques? A picture is worth a thousand words.

I followed what you said about an early weight shift, and also an early pullback, but there's one thing I don't understand. I believe that you can't start pulling back until after the crest. This is just a physical limitation. The bump lifts up the tips, and if you're pulling back your skis, then it will rotate the entire body, which takes a lot of time to undo, because there's nothing to push against to rotate back, so then you end up in the back seat in the next cycle of the turn as you have to use the tails to rotate back. If you look at the reverse bicycle motion that has to happen, the skis come forward until the crest, and then can be pulled back. I found that if I pull back early before the crest, it gives me immediate speed control, with very little effort, but then being forward enough to be early on the backside requires some contortions. The hands go out way forward, and the shoulders hunch forward. It didn't feel so bad until I saw it on some video, and no I'm not going to share it. You don't see this hunch in good skiers, so it's clearly not what they are doing.

We're sharing ideas. Your ideas will get tested when presenting them in a forum. You can learn from that. We can learn from you. All this can happen without video, and it's still worthwhile. But, as a skeptic that truly wants to learn more, I think I'm stuck until I can see some video examples. It's not enough to point to someone else's skiing unless they would describe it the same way. Even then there's room for skepticism, especially when the advice goes against conventional wisdom, but at least it's one more degree of confidence. I sense an honest desire from you to help people learn more about skiing a narrow line. I want to learn more. Please show me with some video.

 

[recbumper]

Lemme see what I can dig up for video..

 

[recbumper]

Here's me on one of our steeper bump lines

Heck, that came thru as a still photo I think. How do we post video here?

 

[KevinF]

For video, you would have to post the video on YouTube (or Vimeo, or some such hosting site) and post the link onto here.

 

[recbumper]

> Thanks for all the info Recbumper.

Sure no prob

> Do you have any video of you or your crew implementing these techniques?

Dug up a couple but somebody pls tell me how to post em

> I followed what you said about an early weight shift, and also an early pullback
Cool

> I believe that you can't start pulling back until after the crest.

Weellll, go try it and see what happens. It most probably'll work. <may need a little practice> You start pulling up when the tips touch. Your boots are down in the trough. You are nowhere near the crest (way below the crest). You start pulling really fast & hard, straight up & slightly back. Works like a charm. The skis bend into loaded camber and snake right over the crest. Don't try this on wicked rigid slalom skis, theyyy might dig in. But most allmountains, bump skis etc. will do this just fine. Try it on small medium or low pitch bumps first, don't try it on big steep ones. But once you get the hang of it it works everywhere

> This is just a physical limitation.

Weelll, actually nope...? Go try it.. Ask Hannah Soar, Emerson Smith, Troy Murphy, etc. This is pretty much what they do and what they coach peeps to do <more or less>

> The bump lifts up the tips, and if you're pulling back your skis, then it will rotate the entire body

By actual experience - Not really. If your body is already in good position, it pretty much stays there (as long as you are pulling). The body doesn't rotate - the bump lifts the tips, yes. Your body stays where it is. The skis bend *a lot*. I dunno but I figure that's maybe where the energy goes? - into bending the ski, not into moving you or rotating you. If I had to take a guess, I think maybe what has happened in recent years is the top folks have realized that the ski can actually absorb all this energy, way more than people maybe used to think..?

> so then you end up in the back seat in the next cycle of the turn as you have to use the tails to rotate back.

If you pull hard & quickly you don't actually get in the back seat. The pull keeps you forward

> If you look at the reverse bicycle motion that has to happen, the skis come forward until the crest, and then can be pulled back.

I think the reverse bicycle may be kindof an older-school visualization that people used to explain a chunk of the big motions in the older school types of technique. Def still used to describe things but maybe not fully accurate to the newer technique

The newer school motion is more like just the heels moving directly straight up, then holding-holding in absorption, rolling thru the crest and over down the first part of the backside, and then extending gently to track down the backside. It's more like a tight exacto knife motion up-down than a big bicycle circle. The ski itself develops quite a pumping motion however that you can really feel


> I found that if I pull back early before the crest, it gives me immediate speed control, with very little effort, but then being forward enough to be early on the backside requires some contortions. The hands go out way forward, and the shoulders hunch forward. It didn't feel so bad until I saw it on some video, and no I'm not going to share it. You don't see this hunch in good skiers, so it's clearly not what they are doing.

Speed control is the name of the game! Cool that you're getting it - that's exactly the point.
Def fight to push the hands way forward. To not hunch, practice a lot on the flats with nice vertical chest and vision up. Then keep your vertical chest when you ski the bumps and keep restoring it when you start to hunch, eventually you'll start to keep the muscle memory

Anyway just for what any of that is worth. This ain't my stuff, just passing on what the reel peeps tell us at camp

 

[Prosper]

I've been working on pulling the feet back and it's been really helpful. Thanks for posting your tips. There's been a fair amount of mogul discussion recently and what better time to practice than the spring slush bumps. They tend to be really forgiving.

 

[Sanity]

> Thanks for all the info Recbumper.

Sure no prob

> Do you have any video of you or your crew implementing these techniques?

Dug up a couple but somebody pls tell me how to post em

It's very easy to post a video on Youtube. Sign up for a gmail account. It's easy. Go to your Youtube account and upload the video. Then enter the link to your Youtube video in the post.

 

[recbumper]

I couldn't make the video hosting stuff work, so here's a fun photo sequence.

Tips To The Target mogul technique drill

Here's one of the skiers in our gang doing Chuck Martin's tips-to-target mogul technique drill. He had worked a lot on a chunk o' fundamentals but hadn't done strong direct sections consistently.

This is natural bumps on a medium-pitch trail. The bumps are fairly random, different lengths, different wacky shapes etc. Regardless of the shape of a mogul, the target goes on the front face of the bump, about 2.5 feet ahead of the shoulder and about 1/3 of the way inward from the corner to the peak. The targets are not linked to each other in any way and this is not an attempt to show a path thru the bumps. It's showing where to point & hit with the tips on each individual mogul, to build feeling & skill for the turn technique turn after turn after turn.

The first day of doing this technique drill, we drew the targets on each bump with a skipole. After a couple of hours with the drawn targets, our skier didn't need them drawn anymore cause he had internalized where the target is on any given bump and was picking the targets himself. The targets in the photo sequence were added in Powerpoint to show approx where they should be.

For each target, the skier aims the skis straight at the target and skis to hit the target with the tips. He then continues thru the target, and when his boot toes reach the target (a moment after the ski tips), he starts his weightshift for the turn (and since the weightshift takes a certain time interval, he completes the shift onto the new ski just before the crest of the mogul). This puts him in excellent position & timing to ski (with nice edge) down the backside of each bump, while pointing the tips at the next target.

The frames start on the right and move to the left. In the right frame, the skier is just hitting the current target with his tips. He will then travel a bit further until the boots reach the target and start the weightshift for the turn. <By the way, if he was also working on the early heel-pull, he would have started the heel-pull a bit before the tips hit the target. But this is a turn drill, not a heel-pull drill so we weren't doing that element here. Usually learn the heel-pull & absorption later, after the turns are working cleanly by themselves.>

And so on down. In the middle frame, I have put the targets approx where each would be on each mogul. If the skier has his vision up he is already starting to get a view ahead to the next couple of targets and onward, but that is not the focus in this drill yet. The focus is just hitting each target with the tips and then feeling the turn.

In the left frame the skier has ridden up onto the target with his boots and he is just starting his weightshift away from the old left ski and onto his new right ski. This will get him nicely set to edge down the backside while pointing his skis at the next target. I put the target in white in this frame to make it visible on the dark background and also to show that the skier has reached the target and is starting the weightshift of his turn.

So that's kindof how the tips-to-the-target drill works. Our folks found it really helpful and this skier and several others were able to start skiing nice consistent sections within just a couple of hours of practice. They had not been able to ski consistent sections before and they considered this to be a major breakthrough in their skiing.

Hope this is fun & helpful. Cheers all

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also as noted before - You have to have some of the basics in place first (learned in flats) before you can use tips-to-target. You have to know (and be able) to start the turn with an Early weightshift right at the top of the turn (no apex-shifters and no bottom-half-of-turn-tailbraking shifters - y'all go back to the flats to practice Early first). You have to know to get the ski on edge with shin pressure+knee roll and then stand on the ski & be patient while it makes its own turn with its own edge (no pivoting/tailpushing). And you have to know to have your hands up & forward & chest & vision up. Once you have those basics you can start trying the tips-to-target drill.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Or better yet, post your video on Rumble.com

 

[geepers]

Thanks for all the info Recbumper. Do you have any video of you or your crew implementing these techniques? A picture is worth a thousand words.

I followed what you said about an early weight shift, and also an early pullback, but there's one thing I don't understand. I believe that you can't start pulling back until after the crest. This is just a physical limitation. The bump lifts up the tips, and if you're pulling back your skis, then it will rotate the entire body, which takes a lot of time to undo, because there's nothing to push against to rotate back, so then you end up in the back seat in the next cycle of the turn as you have to use the tails to rotate back. If you look at the reverse bicycle motion that has to happen, the skis come forward until the crest, and then can be pulled back. I found that if I pull back early before the crest, it gives me immediate speed control, with very little effort, but then being forward enough to be early on the backside requires some contortions. The hands go out way forward, and the shoulders hunch forward. It didn't feel so bad until I saw it on some video, and no I'm not going to share it. You don't see this hunch in good skiers, so it's clearly not what they are doing.

We're sharing ideas. Your ideas will get tested when presenting them in a forum. You can learn from that. We can learn from you. All this can happen without video, and it's still worthwhile. But, as a skeptic that truly wants to learn more, I think I'm stuck until I can see some video examples. It's not enough to point to someone else's skiing unless they would describe it the same way. Even then there's room for skepticism, especially when the advice goes against conventional wisdom, but at least it's one more degree of confidence. I sense an honest desire from you to help people learn more about skiing a narrow line. I want to learn more. Please show me with some video.

Believe it's like this. Loading ski tips into the bump. Class 2 lever (think wheelbarrow).


From this vid:


BigPictureSkiing.com has a good explanation of direct line bumps. (At least the 1st that makes sense to me.) Turning in the vertical provides the speed control. Skiing of Stephen Fielding, Janne Lahtela, Chuck Martin, Benni Walsh (and others) analyzed. Deals with the specifics of what you are asking (like how to avoid breaking at the waist.)
BPS most useful vids for direct line are:

• Webinar - advanced mogul skiing (most useful)
• Moguls and Pivot Slips - Review and greater depths
• Webinar - Details on fore and aft movement for moguls, levers at the hips and pelvis

The vids on rounder line skiing in the bumps are also useful. As background. And, depending on how athletic you, options when unable to direct line.

• Bump Lesson - Speed Control and Line control
• Better flow in your mogul skiing

Those are the vid names in my notes so may not be exactly the same name on BPS. But should be able to find it.

 

[Sanity]

I'm glad my curiosities helped continue conversations about mogul skiing, but I really only had one initial question. At what point do the conditions get so tough that you can't control your speed while skiing more or less in a straight line? I know where that point is for me, and how fast I would go. Maybe, I'm already doing the best anyone can do. Certainly, there are people that ski faster than me, but as far as I know, there isn't a single person in the world that can ski slower than me down the same straight line. How would I go about figuring that out, right? If other people can control their speed better, then I'd be curious about what they do differently. All I wanted to hear were rough limits regarding steepness and conditions when people add in turn shape, and perhaps how fast they would go. With basically only one answer (thanks again Seldomski, and a little from mdf), then I guess the next best thing would be a discussion of speed control tactics without turning. This leads to "when to pressure", "how to pressure", and I haven't really agreed with some of the analysis. Should I be taking notes or giving pointers? I don't know, unless I see some video. But, there are a few things I know absolutely:

The reverse bicycle move hasn't become obsolete, because it isn't really so much about technique as it is about physiology. Bending the tip of the ski doesn't make the reverse bicycle unnecessary either, because the sole of the boot must see a change in slope when skiing up a bump. That change in slope means the boot will tilt back. Because of physiology, either the skier will tilt back with the boot, or the feet must come forward. All good bump skiers allow the feet to come forward as they actively absorb the bump. I'm not making much headway getting my questions answered, but that's fine as long as people are having fun talking about bump skiing.

 

[James]

The funny thing about mogul pole plants is they are technically blocking pole plants. Even the high level ones.

Your body stays where it is. The skis bend *a lot*. I dunno but I figure that's maybe where the energy goes? - into bending the ski, not into moving you or rotating you.

And the boot.
I don’t get his rotating body thing either. Deflected feet and legs sure.

 

[recbumper]

> The reverse bicycle move hasn't become obsolete, because it isn't really so much about technique as it is about physiology. Bending the tip of the ski doesn't make the reverse bicycle unnecessary either

I think a description of the newer school might be along the lines of a) keeping the radius of the circular motion as tight as possible, plus b) applying strong hamstring tension very early in the cycle, so that as the feet start to come forward, they are moving forward against active tension thruout rather than floating upward at first, with the tension coming on late in the cycle.

The coaching instructions to produce this are basically around the idea of pull straight up with high amplitude & speed. Emerson said something like "It's a big, fast, straight upward move with your heels, as soon as the tips touch the bump face."

The effect is to get the tips down on the backside as soon as possible, which gets the edge in for speed control in a direct line.


> either the skier will tilt back with the boot

Don't want that to happen! Thus the strong early pull

 

[recbumper]

> as far as I know, there isn't a single person in the world that can ski slower than me down the same straight line. How would I go about figuring that out, right? If other people can control their speed better, then I'd be curious about what they do differently. All I wanted to hear were rough limits regarding steepness and conditions when people add in turn shape, and perhaps how fast they would go.

In terms of going slowly down a straight line - It was always amazing to watch Hannah Kearney practicing speed control on the steepest flats sections up at the top of the Whistler glacier. She would pick a dead straight fall line and do these amazing, beautiful round turns with perfect ellipse curves and bring the skis to 90 degree deflection one way, then perfectly round back the other way. She could go down the steepest sections at a near zero pace and every turn was perfectly edged - really a sight to see. Hannah's retired now.

In Summer 2019 which was the last time the camps were running before covid came along, Mikael Kingsbury was practicing turns and new air tricks on the slope up above the top of the T-bar lift. He was hiking up onto that really steep section of snow that runs up to the red boulders up there, then doing about 4 super-slow turns down from the rocks to get to his run-in point (cause there were no bumps, just an entry prep slope), and then pointing 'em straight and going off a kicker they had set up and working on his Cork 1440 which he's now using. Mik's super-slow lineup turns were kindof different from Hannah's. Maybe a little harsher on the edgebite on the top half, after that unbelievably Early weightshift that he has. So maybe turns shaped more like a Spitfire's wing (2 half-ellipses with different semi-minor axes) than Hannah's which were more symmetrical. Mik would go at this crawling near-zero pace until he was lined up where he wanted to be, then point 'em and cut loose straight into the kicker.

Emerson was watching and went, "Now Mik is throwing something *Dope*!"

So those were a few thoughts on turn shape for speed control, maybe useful

Peace All

 

[Sanity]

> The reverse bicycle move hasn't become obsolete, because it isn't really so much about technique as it is about physiology. Bending the tip of the ski doesn't make the reverse bicycle unnecessary either

I think a description of the newer school might be along the lines of a) keeping the radius of the circular motion as tight as possible, plus b) applying strong hamstring tension very early in the cycle, so that as the feet start to come forward, they are moving forward against active tension thruout rather than floating upward at first, with the tension coming on late in the cycle.

The coaching instructions to produce this are basically around the idea of pull straight up with high amplitude & speed. Emerson said something like "It's a big, fast, straight upward move with your heels, as soon as the tips touch the bump face."

The effect is to get the tips down on the backside as soon as possible, which gets the edge in for speed control in a direct line.


> either the skier will tilt back with the boot

Don't want that to happen! Thus the strong early pull

That all sounds fine to me. There's a balance between applying tension and actively absorbing that can go wrong. Ultimately, as we both agree, you need to stay as forward as possible while absorbing. Though, pushing against anything effectively means it's pushing back against you. If you pressure the shins while the ski is rotating underneath you (in the vertical plane), it means that you will rotate with it, unless the feet come forward. Not retracting the feet enough means the bump will push you up in the air, and then it takes too much time to regain pressure on the backside, as I'm sure you'll agree also. Most of these problems are only apparent on large bumps that take lots of absorption. If you jump the trough, and land on the tops, you won't have these problems, and you can lever all you want on the front of the boot. If the bumps are like stairs, then there won't be these problems. If you're skiing very directly down the spine, there's not much to absorb, and these issues I'm talking about won't show up. The problem comes with those huge, spring, rec bumps with huge holes for troughs while skiing in the troughs. The end of that trough is a big bump with a large upward slope, and if you don't allow the feet to come forward, then that bump will tilt you back. So, you have to let the feet come forward, and you can't let the bump push you up in the air, but you want to stay as forward as possible while applying pressure for speed control. These are competing physical requirements that perhaps makes bump skiing so difficult. How can your feet come forward if you're pulling them back? How can you have pressure without the bump pushing you up in the air? It takes just the right touch not to let your skis get any more forward than necessary and apply just the right amount of pressure that will still allow your body to continue dropping down the fall line.

 

[Sanity]

> as far as I know, there isn't a single person in the world that can ski slower than me down the same straight line. How would I go about figuring that out, right? If other people can control their speed better, then I'd be curious about what they do differently. All I wanted to hear were rough limits regarding steepness and conditions when people add in turn shape, and perhaps how fast they would go.

In terms of going slowly down a straight line - It was always amazing to watch Hannah Kearney practicing speed control on the steepest flats sections up at the top of the Whistler glacier. She would pick a dead straight fall line and do these amazing, beautiful round turns with perfect ellipse curves and bring the skis to 90 degree deflection one way, then perfectly round back the other way. She could go down the steepest sections at a near zero pace and every turn was perfectly edged - really a sight to see. Hannah's retired now.

In Summer 2019 which was the last time the camps were running before covid came along, Mikael Kingsbury was practicing turns and new air tricks on the slope up above the top of the T-bar lift. He was hiking up onto that really steep section of snow that runs up to the red boulders up there, then doing about 4 super-slow turns down from the rocks to get to his run-in point (cause there were no bumps, just an entry prep slope), and then pointing 'em straight and going off a kicker they had set up and working on his Cork 1440 which he's now using. Mik's super-slow lineup turns were kindof different from Hannah's. Maybe a little harsher on the edgebite on the top half, after that unbelievably Early weightshift that he has. So maybe turns shaped more like a Spitfire's wing (2 half-ellipses with different semi-minor axes) than Hannah's which were more symmetrical. Mik would go at this crawling near-zero pace until he was lined up where he wanted to be, then point 'em and cut loose straight into the kicker.

Emerson was watching and went, "Now Mik is throwing something *Dope*!"

So those were a few thoughts on turn shape for speed control, maybe useful

Peace All

I'm talking about without making hardly any turns at all. Skis are almost straight down the fall line the entire time. Many people can do this on blue moguls with powder for example.