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mogul skiing

asolo

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What is the trick to turning skis in moguls? I am completely unable to make any turns. I can jump over moguls, but that leads to out of control speed. I can get down (fast), but I can't ski (slow). I have watched videos and read all I could on the subject.

Instruction: I have just taken the mogul camp at Winter Park and found it somewhat (entirely) useless. It went like: we'd go on a black mogul run, I'd negotiate my way down trying not to die, repeat. I totally understood what instructor was saying, it just was not helping.

I actually quit the class after two days, having realized that it was just painful and a waste of time. On the upside, I realized that hoping that classes like this can help is naive. You just have to train like a kid: do it over and over for thousands of hours, falls and all, and eventually you'll figure it out. When I trained as a child, there was no specific instruction (nobody can "explain" how to skate), but I figured it out somehow.
 

Ogg

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Try practicing the shortest radius turns you can on groomers first. Once you've mastered that the moguls almost seem to make it easier, at least to me.
 

Skisailor

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What is the trick to turning skis in moguls? I am completely unable to make any turns. I can jump over moguls, but that leads to out of control speed. I can get down (fast), but I can't ski (slow). I have watched videos and read all I could on the subject.

Instruction: I have just taken the mogul camp at Winter Park and found it somewhat (entirely) useless. It went like: we'd go on a black mogul run, I'd negotiate my way down trying not to die, repeat. I totally understood what instructor was saying, it just was not helping.

I actually quit the class after two days, having realized that it was just painful and a waste of time. On the upside, I realized that hoping that classes like this can help is naive. You just have to train like a kid: do it over and over for thousands of hours, falls and all, and eventually you'll figure it out. When I trained as a child, there was no specific instruction (nobody can "explain" how to skate), but I figured it out somehow.

asolo - It doesn’t take thousands of hours and you should be able to ski bumps as slowly as you want.

You have to learn how to get OFF your edges (use a flat ski) and turn your legs. You should learn/practice these skills on a groomer first so that you can make short radius pivoty turns. Then you are ready to take it into the bumps.

I have had great success turning groomer skiers into beginning mogul skiers in one 3 hour lesson.

Don’t give up. It’s really fun to ski moguls. And it opens up so much more of the mountain to you.
 

Guy in Shorts

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Yesterday ran my 11 year old nephew thru some green and blue bumps. Short skis and young knees helps. Practice is the solution as well as tucking your ankles under your butt. Spend most of your time hugging a 3 or 4 foot wide line down the steepest terrain you can find for hours on end. Been doing this for over 40 seasons and I am hoping to someday be a respectable mogul skier. Good Luck on your journey.
 

Erik Timmerman

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What was the instructor saying that made sense, but you couldn't do?
 

Mike King

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@asolo, I went back and looked at the videos of your skiing that you posted in your other thread. You have a lot of good stuff going on in your skiing, but there are some things that you can work on that will help not only in your mogul skiing, but also in your groomer skiing.

As was pointed out in the other thread, your primary way of creating edge is to move your upper body inside the turn and push the skis away from you until they create enough edge to deflect you across the hill. This technique can work in a lot of places, but it isn't a great technique in moguls. Why? As @Skisailor indicated above, a more effective technique is to use less edge. This allows you to steer the ski with rotary movements from the lower body, allowing the ski to drift and create drag to control your speed. The technique you use results in too much edge, and that shoots you across the hill with little speed or direction control.

If you go back to the original video you posted, you are showing quite a bit of dynamic range in your flexion and extension, but the timing is not quite right. You rise as you come into edge change rather than shorten. You should be at your shortest at edge change.

In any case, the progression I gave you for your groomer skiing in #37 of that thread will help to develop better movement patterns. You are going to need a different blend for mogul skiing, however.

The first task is to get you over the ski but able to steer it with rotary movements of the upper legs. What's the drill? Pivot slips! Find a groomed slope with a good bit of pitch. With your skis across the fall line, get into a countered position so that you are rotationally aligned. The upper ski should be ahead of the lower ski and the angle of the tip should be the same as the angle of your upper/lower ankle, knee, hip, and shoulders. Almost all of the weight should be on the downhill ski. Release the downhill ski by rolling the ankle and tipping, slightly, the knees down the hill. Slip straight down the fall line -- if you are moving obliquely to the fall line toward the tip of the skis, you are too far forward on the ski, and if you are moving obliquely to the fall line toward the tails, you are too far back. Get over the center of the ski and you will slip straight down the fall line. Now steer the tips down the hill and as the ski is moving straight along its length down the fall line steer the tails down the fall line. This is a drill that emphasizes the rotation of the legs, but it also requires you to move the body to stay over the center of the ski. As the rotation occurs, don't allow the skis to deviate from their path straight down the fall line. Here's a video:


Once you really own the pivot slips, try taking it into braquage turns. These will be short turns, but the objective is to allow the ski to slip all the way through the turns. There's very little edge, but what we are really trying to do is two things: keep the upper body moving with the skis (stay on top of them), and using the same leg rotation to turn the skis. It looks a lot like pivot slips, but with more forward movement. Something like this:


Next, we need to work on the timing of your flexion and extension movements. Think about trying to get as short as you can at the time of edge change. So, as you are performing some of those braquage turns, see how short you can get as you change the edges. Extend, still allowing the ski to slip until you are as tall as you can get when the skis are directly down the fall line and shorten all the way through to edge change. This flexion and extension is really important to bump skiing, although it will be a bit different, as we will get to in a bit.

The real key, IMHO, to skiing the bumps is flexion and extension, with the ability to change the edges in a very flexed position. BTW, this is also a key to steep skiing. And slalom. And owning a dynamic short turn. But I'm getting off track.

Practice flexion and extension. Let the hips come behind the heel piece, but don't allow the shin to come off of the tongue of the boot (contact, not crush). The more range you have, and the lower you can change edges, the better you will ultimately be in skiing bumps and steeps.

Next, find a moderate bump run. Take a shallow angle across the field. Try to keep your upper body at the same height and allow the feet to come up and away from you to do so. Start at a slow speed. Allow the speed to build as you are successful in absorbing and flexing to keep your body traveling at the same height. See if you can let the bump push the feet up as opposed to pulling them up. As you crest the bump, stall the feet a bit by pulling them back so that the tips of the skis travel down the backside of the bump.

From here, it's about learning line. Here's three videos I like about the topic:


Good luck!

Mike
 

Hamid S

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Fuller

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That was an excellent synopsis of the learning process for bumps @Mike King, thanks. We did a short intro to bumps in my weekly men's group last Wednesday. I was feeling pretty good about my skills until that day when I went from #1 student to the back of the pack. I can do all the prerequisite drills but I just kind of fall apart in the final execution. I definitely need lots of reps on easy terrain and I need to internalize my line choice to create some flow at any speed that works.

Thinking about this for a moment what stands out to me is the need to keep the skis flat at transition while keeping the landing gear up. Once I can do that and drift down the back side to the next edge set I think I can get it. One more week of skiing and its back to FL, need to get to work!
 

karlo

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Assuming upper body discipline is taken care of, listen to the advice at 2:13, then watch the tips of the skis - and listen to the music :)

 

Chris V.

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This will be somewhat repetitive of other responses, but reworded in a way that may be helpful to some. Mike King has given a lot of great, detailed advice. Great bump skiing requires a blend of many skills, applied with split second decision making. Truly a lifetime project! But from what I've seen, the number one thing that holds back a lot of skiers is that they haven't fully developed the ability to initiate a turn with a release. They may think that they're releasing effectively. But for the extremely quick and short turns needed in bumps, any initiation that incorporates an element of standing on and extending off the new outside ski simply takes too much time, more time than you have. It will throw you off your line.

What you need to master is the ability to turn very quickly by flexing the joints, strongly retracting the skis, and IMMEDIATELY tipping the feet over into the new turn. All of this happens much sooner than a lot of skiers are thinking.

It went like: we'd go on a black mogul run, I'd negotiate my way down trying not to die, repeat.

Sounds terrible. The place to build that indestructible short turn is on moderate groomers! Thlen take it to the mildest bump run you can find. Move up from there.

Someone once wrote of finding the groomer hidden in the moguls. OK, it won't always be there, but on not too severely bumped out slopes this can be a great way of organizing your thinking. The point is to find a line of descent that doesn't require you to use an extreme amount of flexion and extension to adjust to the terrain. This will free you to focus on continuing to use flexion and extension to create turn shape. (At least until you move up to something harder.)
 

Josh Matta

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bump skiing is great fundamentals being applied with good tactic for you need to do.

The reality is if you are lacking in finesse in your fundamental skiing or something that just isnt right try to go into bumps is going to be painful and hard. Until you have solid low edge angle short turn, the ability the sideslip at various angles, do a pivot slip on groomed terrain, and know how to do hop turns I wouldnt try to tackle and natural bump run blue steepness or greater. If you do know know how to do any of the above than bump skiing for speed control is going to be tough.

Do you have any video of you skiing anywhere? especially short turns? do you ever practice slow complete short turns on the groomers?
 

Paul Shifflet

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Use the bump to help you turn. Look for a small bump, the shoulder of the bump, or the bottom part of the spine of the bump to ski across. When the ground drops away from the tips, it's effortless to pivot the skis. Pivot to start your turn, then finish the turn across the hill. This is illustrated in the video below starting at 11:10.

 

Josh Matta

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Why do you need to Pivot to start your turn? could your start your turn by edging or is pivoting the only way?
 
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Tricia

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Josh Matta

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oh yes now I remember I even MA ed that video...

Pushing off the old outside ski every time does help you be able to ski bumps.

Simply put @asolo you have the inability to smear, or ski flat ski, and when you do get on edge it from a lateral move and not a diagonal move.

here is my progression for you.

Step one

Learn this


Step two learn this, one thing to note is how the hips dont move but the Legs do twist, you tend to use hip twisting in the previous videos



Step 3 learn this

with hip twisting


no hip twisting


both have merit learn to do hop turns both ways!



Then go back and see if your Short turns feel any different, try to do some slow short turns and play around with Absorption and extension movements at various times in the turn. Dont just flex to release or extend to release, in fact learn to basically untie the release from any A&E, IE know how to flex or extend to release but also know you dont know either you just need clean foot tipping.

Once you have all of that, its just coming down to Tactics IE where we are and were are going in the bumps fields....


Their are 2 tactics that lead to versatility to being able to ski 95 percent of bumps....

Bank line

and Spine line

The bank line is using the side and uphill sides of bumps to make a berm with a very complete turns that is done in the slowest line possible as fast as possible. This leads to the lowest impact skiing if the line is there as the turn will not have abrupt edge set that are usually hard on the body.

Bank line in action


Spine line is making many turn down the "spine" of a single bump to avoid the rut for the following reasons, the ruts shape is too fast for you the skier to follow, andd/or the rut is very icey when the spine has some purchase to it.

the first couple turns in this clip are the "spine" line, I was doing this to avoid rocks and icey ice than what I was on.

 

jack97

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What is the trick to turning skis in moguls? I am completely unable to make any turns. I can jump over moguls, but that leads to out of control speed. I can get down (fast), but I can't ski (slow). I have watched videos and read all I could on the subject.

I saw your short turn vid, it shows that you're dropping the hip to get edge angle and I'm guessing that's your primary way to control speed. The post by Mike King & Skisailor makes sense, you have to practice getting off the edges to control your descent and speed. Once you can do this in the flats then you bring it to the bumps. there's a segment in Lito's vid (linked by Paul S.) where he side slips the bumps. IMO, this is the best way for beginners to get comfortable in the bumps, once this happens, all sorts of avenues open up.
 

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