mogul skiing

[asolo]

@asolo,

The real key, IMHO, to skiing the bumps is flexion and extension, with the ability to change the edges in a very flexed position. BTW, this is also a key to steep skiing. And slalom. And owning a dynamic short turn. But I'm getting off track.

Practice flexion and extension. Let the hips come behind the heel piece, but don't allow the shin to come off of the tongue of the boot (contact, not crush). The more range you have, and the lower you can change edges, the better you will ultimately be in skiing bumps and steeps.

Next, find a moderate bump run. Take a shallow angle across the field. Try to keep your upper body at the same height and allow the feet to come up and away from you to do so. Start at a slow speed. Allow the speed to build as you are successful in absorbing and flexing to keep your body traveling at the same height. See if you can let the bump push the feet up as opposed to pulling them up. As you crest the bump, stall the feet a bit by pulling them back so that the tips of the skis travel down the backside of the bump.

From here, it's about learning line. Here's three videos I like about the topic:

Good luck!

Mike

Thanks! A lot to read and watch, just got back.

Release: I can release edges either way, by flexing or extending. Based on some comments earlier I had switched completely to flexing, but I think it is actually a bit too much. I think I am going to go back to a bit more of a an extension. This is for a carved turn.

 

[asolo]

What was the instructor saying that made sense, but you couldn't do?

"Stand taller and lean forward". I could do one or the other and keep skiing, but not both together and still have any sort of turn.

Now, I should say the class was not _entirely_ useless. They said right away, "you are too low, if you are down all the time, you can't flex/absorb". Well, I can, I have enough strength to just jump over a handful of moguls, but it sure is tiring. If I aggressively extend into the trough after absorbing a crest, I survive a mogul run little longer.

From what I can tell, the target of the class was to ski moguls slow style. That was a complete non starter. I just don't have a slow turn with one ski radius.

 

[asolo]

@asolo


Mike

Watched the videos:

#1 I think I have this

#2 Braquage turns, I have got this turn. Practiced it, seems like no problem.

#3 Tactic of skiing moguls. Read about this many times. It makes perfect sense. Now if I could actually ski moguls...

#4 Round short turns. Well, this depends on the snow quality and the pitch of the piste. I guess with some luck and decent snow on a nice easy groomer I can do this. Otherwise it can be anything, from carving turns to jump turns and anything in between.

#5 Yes, the green line, the blue line, the black line. What we have at Mary Jane is 3 foot deep trenches, soft if you lucky, icy if not. No matter what line, it's gonna hurt.

 

[jack97]

"Stand taller and lean forward". I could do one or the other and keep skiing, but not both together and still have any sort of turn.

Side slips and pivot slips done properly requires you to stand tall but to stay centered (on the ski). To get tall and forward, there's another drill. here's two vid of the tail lift drill.

freestyle team, from :17 to 1:40

PSIA with audio

 

[jack97]

#5 Yes, the green line, the blue line, the black line. What we have at Mary Jane is 3 foot deep trenches, soft if you lucky, icy if not. No matter what line, it's gonna hurt.

The color lines are tactics, IMO too much information for a newbie to process. At your home mountain, can you slip and make a hockey stop at the top of the mogul?

 

[Beartown]

"Stand taller and lean forward". I could do one or the other and keep skiing, but not both together and still have any sort of turn.

Now, I should say the class was not _entirely_ useless. They said right away, "you are too low, if you are down all the time, you can't flex/absorb". Well, I can, I have enough strength to just jump over a handful of moguls, but it sure is tiring. If I aggressively extend into the trough after absorbing a crest, I survive a mogul run little longer.

From what I can tell, the target of the class was to ski moguls slow style. That was a complete non starter. I just don't have a slow turn with one ski radius.

Ski radius is related to carved turns. Moguls are not about carving turns. People skiing moguls well do not have 2m radius skis and they do not carve turns. Have to learn to skid (or "drift" as I learned it).

 

[Josh Matta]

"Stand taller and lean forward". I could do one or the other and keep skiing, but not both together and still have any sort of turn.

Now, I should say the class was not _entirely_ useless. They said right away, "you are too low, if you are down all the time, you can't flex/absorb". Well, I can, I have enough strength to just jump over a handful of moguls, but it sure is tiring. If I aggressively extend into the trough after absorbing a crest, I survive a mogul run little longer.

From what I can tell, the target of the class was to ski moguls slow style. That was a complete non starter. I just don't have a slow turn with one ski radius.

yeah it should be the skier not the ski that determinds the radius. The slow line fast video was filmed on 26m 106mm ski that was 186cm long....

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Stand tall means fairly upright at the waist with fairly open knee joints and pelvis forward. Get more forward means round your back.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Everyone is trying to be helpful but just stick to blue trails with small bumps until you are comfortable enough to move on to blacks. Goof around with quick turns on the side of blue or mellow blacks. Ski terrain that you enjoy.

 

[Mike King]

Thanks! A lot to read and watch, just got back.

Release: I can release edges either way, by flexing or extending. Based on some comments earlier I had switched completely to flexing, but I think it is actually a bit too much. I think I am going to go back to a bit more of a an extension. This is for a carved turn.

@asolo, let's talk about release for a second. If you go back to the stuff I gave you in the other thread, you will see that the changing of edges is not simply flex to release, there is also tipping of the lower leg. The two are important components of the release (you can also put rolling the ankles in there, but most of the work comes from tipping the lower leg), and you need BOTH.

How do these two work to affect ski performance? What we want is to get bend in the ski. In order to bend the ski, there has be be weight on top of it. By flexing the old outside leg, the body starts to move toward the inside of the new turn. By tipping the lower leg, the skis are tipped onto edge early, creating a platform to accept pressure early in the turn. And as the edge angle builds, the pressure bends the ski, and the bend starts to redirect the CoM in the turn.

Now, if you use an extension to release the edge, the CoM is moving away from the skis. And because the lower leg is likely not tipping, the platform to accept pressure early in the turn is not established, resulting in the ski not bending as early. The result is often a drifting ski early in the turn with maximum pressure coming late.

So, @asolo, go play with extend to release as opposed to flex to release. Don't forget the lower leg tipping. And see what works best. Realize that one will feel familiar and the other different. Don't confuse these with better/worse -- observe what happens to your ability to glide across the hill.

Now, how does all of this, which was focused on groomer skiing, relate to moguls? The release is a big part of mogul skiing. You have to be able to release the edge by tipping the lower leg because you need to do so when at maximum flexion -- that is, when you are absorbing the bump. And being able to bend the ski early is going to allow you to use turn shape to control your speed.

Mike

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Everyone is trying to be helpful but just stick to blue trails with small bumps until you are comfortable enough to move on to blacks. Goof around with quick turns on the side of blue or mellow blacks. Ski terrain that you enjoy.

Whenever there is fresh snow on top of overnight grooming or lots of traffic on groomed terrain, there are small, soft piles of disturbed snow created. They are the beginnings of bumps and you can treat them as virtual bumps to practice turning around.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Here’s how I first learned to begin pivoting flat skis. From my first ski school director, who had been on the French National Team with Jean Claude Killy.

Sit in a chair with your feet flat on the floor beneath your knees. Put a hand on a knee and turn that foot slightly to the side without letting the knee move laterally significantly. You need slippery feet. You can’t pivot the foot far before you reach the limit of twist available in the lower leg. Practice turning one foot out and back to those limits until it’s easy. Then do the other foot. Then do both together. When you go to the snow, find a really flat area with no traffic, assume a deep crouch like a really low tuck wile pointing the skis down the fall line and slowly apply the foot twist pressure in one direction. You can make long, slow turns to the side. Practice both directions repeatedly. Gradually do this with increasingly opened knee joints. Let femur rotation creep into the exercise.

 

[carlcg11]

Asolo. Your post brought back a similar, and painful, experience I had with a mogul lesson a few years back. Wanted to learn and ski moguls to progress and advance my abilities. I had always avoided moguls in the past.

Signed up for dedicated mogul lesson at Breckenridge. Rode up lift with instructor and explained I always avoided moguls, my cluelessness on reading mogul lines, apprehensions, but was eager to learn (I can ski groomed blacks with confidence and decent form). We joined the rest of the group up top to begin. First run was Lower Psycopath. He provided some instructions to group and said “do what I do”, and down he went. Turns out the group members were not rookies in moguls. While rest of group was down, I still up there struggling to get down. Bumps were large and troughs were very narrow and deep. Getting yelled at by other skiers on the run.

Next run was Little Johnny. Same scenario for me. This time injured my elbow in a fall. Made it down finally. That was it; told a member of group I am done and left the lesson.

Still hoping to learn moguls - someday.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Sounds like you were late for the lesson meeting and missed out on an opportunity to discuss your experience level and lesson expectations so you got into the wrong group.