Midlayers

[Slim]

If it's 5° with wind chills well below zero, are you all using a down midlayer or doubling up on synthetics? If it's that cold, I'm not sure I'm sweating.

Also, to get more breathability, maybe a down vest would be the way to go when it's that cold?

If it’s that that cold and windy, I will be dressed pretty warm to keep from freezing on the lift. That means I will be sweating when I ski. Venting can help (pitzips, opening the waistcord/snowskirt), but still, there will be some sweating. That’s why moisture management becomes important.

You could do it with vapor barrier clothing, or with a combination of wicking and drying out inside the lodge.

 

[QueueCT]

Any thoughts on this jacket as a mid layer? $65 now with their holiday promo.
http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/mens-ignitelite-hybrid-jacket/12950337
I've never bought any eddie bauer stuff before, but like the combination of an insulated core with less bulk on the arms. That's usually where my shell and midlayer don't get along.

Normally I use something similar to what you linked except just a vest. For two seasons, when it's below about 20F, I've been using this under a shell (no insulation at all). Wouldn't classify as a mid-layer but keeps me toasty on the lift. You guys sound like tough bastards so may be overkill for you. Picked it up on sale for about $60 last year. Expect it to last maybe 5 seasons.

http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/mens-cirruslite-down-jacket/10112119

 

[palikona]

What's warmer under a shell...650 down, NanoPuff, Nano Air or Arcteryx Atom?

 

[neonorchid]

What's warmer under a shell...650 down, NanoPuff, Nano Air or Arcteryx Atom?

650 down is the quality of feather, you need to look at Fill Weight, the higher the quality of down the less bulky for a given fill weight.

Down Jacket Comparison Table

Jacket Price Weight Fill Power Fill Weight Denier Packable
Arc'teryx Cerium LT Hoody $379 10.8 oz. 850 fill 3.4 oz. 20Dx10D Stuff sack
Feathered Friends Eos $309 10.6 oz. 900 fill 3.7 oz. 12Dx20D Stuff sack
Patagonia Down Sweater $229 13.1 oz. 800 fill 3 oz. 20Dx30D Chest pocket
REI Co-op Down Jacket $99.50 10.5 oz. 650 fill 3 oz. Unavail. Hand pocket
Mountain Equipment Lightline $250 26 oz. 700 fill 10.4 oz. 40D Stuff sack
Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer $350 7.7 oz. 800 fill 2.8 oz. 7Dx10D Hand pocket
Rab Neutrino Endurance $375 22.4 oz. 800 fill 8.8 oz. 30D Stuff sack
REI Co-op Magma 850 $189 10.8 oz. 850 fill Unavail. 15D Hand pocket
Patagonia Ultralight Down Hoody $349 10.5 oz. 800 fill 3.5 oz. 15D Chest pocket
Arc'teryx Thorium SV $425 21.7 oz. 750 fill 6.2 oz. 40D Stuff sack
Black Diamond Cold Forge Hooded $299 20.3 oz. Down blend Unavail. 20D No
Patagonia Fitz Roy Down Parka $449 22.3 oz. 800 fill 8 oz. 20D Stuff sack
Montbell Mirage Parka $379 12.8 oz. 900 fill 5.3 oz. 7D Stuff sack
Mountain Hardwear StretchDown $300 18 oz. 750 fill 3.5 oz. Unavail. No
Fjallraven Ovik Lite Jacket $400 25.4 oz. 500 fill 4.6 oz. Unavail. No
Outdoor Research Transcendent $199 13 oz. 650 fill 3.5 oz. 20D Hand pocket
Eddie Bauer Evertherm Hooded $279 12.7 oz. 30g Thindown Unavail. Unavail. No
Marmot Ares $175 15.5 oz. 600 fill 3.6 oz. Unavail. Hand pocket

https://www.switchbacktravel.com/best-down-jackets

 

[Corgski]

What's warmer under a shell...650 down, NanoPuff, Nano Air or Arcteryx Atom?

Down is a low density insulation, meaning that it loses some of its effectiveness if your shell is compressing it.

Nano Puff is not particularly breathable, it is only meant to be used under a shell as a last resort. Nano Air and Atom LT are somewhat similar in breathability and warmth, but neither are particularly warm. I use an Atom LT under an uninsulated shell in milder conditions. These are great pieces but be aware you are paying a lot for them to be highly compressible in a backpack and for impressive weather resistance for their breathability. They are not necessarily outperforming a classic 200wt fleece when under a shell. They will beat the fleece as an outer layer and in a backpack.

The Atom AR is probably the best bet if you are trying to use an uninsulated shell in colder conditions. It has twice the insulation of the Atom LT and does not need to loft nearly as much as down to provide warmth. Not as breathable as Atom LT so really only for colder conditions under a shell. A little out of proportion compared to other Arcteryx pieces but very difficult to find any piece with that much insulation in a lightweight jacket.

 

[palikona]

If the down doesn't compress much, and is 3oz fill weight, how does it compare to Atom, Nano Air/Puff?

 

[neonorchid]

If the down doesn't compress much, and is 3oz fill weight, how does it compare to Atom, Nano Air/Puff?

You only need to worry about down compressing and not lofting up enough if your shell is small on you.

In the Arc'teryx Q&A's they say a Cerium LT under one of their Gore-tex shell's would be as warm as their Fissile Gore-tex Down insulated jacket. I put it to the test last 27º night a few weeks ago and would agree.

The 850 down 3.5oz fill Cerium LT is noticably warmer under my Gore-tex Pro shell then TNF Thermoball or Nano Air. I don't have Atom or Puff.

If you'd like I can do another test walk around the neighborhood Wednesday 27º high and 14º low. About time cold air returns!

 

[Corgski]

If the down doesn't compress much, and is 3oz fill weight, how does it compare to Atom, Nano Air/Puff?

The Nano Puff should not be used as a midlayer. The Nano Air and Atom LT are not warm pieces. These are great pieces, they are just not what you are looking for here. I often use an Atom LT under another insulated jacket.

Neonorchid is right, the compressibility problem does depend on fit. I tend to go for trim fitting shells and am therefore more aware of the problem. At the end of the day, down is the warmest insulation out there. Down just never feels comfortable to me under a shell. That could be just me or my shell. I think it is something you just need to try.

 

[palikona]

My shell is a freeride fit so it doesn't really compress midlayers. I get that 800 fill would be warm but am wondering if 650 is basically the same as some of those synthetic offerings or would the down still be warmer. I'm thinking yes, but am curious.

I don't get why not to use the Nano Puff as a midlayer in very cold conditions. Isn't that what it's specifically made for?

 

[Corgski]

My shell is a freeride fit so it doesn't really compress midlayers. I get that 800 fill would be warm but am wondering if 650 is basically the same as some of those synthetic offerings or would the down still be warmer. I'm thinking yes, but am curious.

I don't get why not to use the Nano Puff as a midlayer in very cold conditions. Isn't that what it's specifically made for?

The fill rating is more important when you are looking at packability. 800 fill will pack into a smaller volume than 600 fill. For a given weight of down, yes the higher fill will be warmer but to make a meaningful comparison you have to know how much down is in the jacket in the first place. If you are not trying to cram it into a backpack, I would not let be a requirement. I have a 650 fill down jacket that keeps me warm well below 0F. It just packs into a larger space than an equivalent 800 fill jacket. This can be part of the problem with using alpine expedition gear for skiing. An alpinist will pay a lot to be able to stuff a lot of clothing and a very warm sleeping bag into a pack. If this is not a feature you need, why pay for it?

Nano puff has very poor breathability, if you had to cover your mouth with it you will suffocate - you can breath through the Atom LT and Nano Air. They advertise it as being windproof - a good indication that it is not primarily intended as a midlayer. Using it as a midlayer is like using a 90mm ski on icy groomed runs. Yes you can do it, people do it all the time, it is just a poor match for the task.

 

[palikona]

The fill rating is more important when you are looking at packability. 800 fill will pack into a smaller volume than 600 fill. For a given weight of down, yes the higher fill will be warmer but to make a meaningful comparison you have to know how much down is in the jacket in the first place. If you are not trying to cram it into a backpack, I would not let be a requirement. I have a 650 fill down jacket that keeps me warm well below 0F. It just packs into a larger space than an equivalent 800 fill jacket. This can be part of the problem with using alpine expedition gear for skiing. An alpinist will pay a lot to be able to stuff a lot of clothing and a very warm sleeping bag into a pack. If this is not a feature you need, why pay for it?

Nano puff has very poor breathability, if you had to cover your mouth with it you will suffocate - you can breath through the Atom LT and Nano Air. They advertise it as being windproof - a good indication that it is not primarily intended as a midlayer. Using it as a midlayer is like using a 90mm ski on icy groomed runs. Yes you can do it, people do it all the time, it is just a poor match for the task.

Very good info, thanks.

On a 3°/-18° windchill day, what would you want under a shell?
Why wouldn't a windproof layer like the Puff be better than the Air? Or would Down be better at that kind of temp and below?

 

[Corgski]

Very good info, thanks.

On a 3°/-18° windchill day, what would you want under a shell?
Why wouldn't a windproof layer like the Puff be better than the Air? Or would Down be better at that kind of temp and below?

At that point I have switched to an insulated shell. Lets try to put some numbers to it. Including midlayers I would be wanting the equivalent of 200gm/m^2 synthetic insulation. I think the warmth of the Cerium LT may be equivalent to 120 - 140gm synthetic.
Atom AR: 120gm
Nano Puff/Air, Atom LT : 60gm each.

If using an uninsulated shell, you are looking at combining jackets. I have done it but then I feel like the kid in A Christmas Story. Many people do it however and don't complain. If you have to do that, using a technical fleece as one of the layers can help to maintain some level of breathability and reduce bulk.

When it comes to the Nano Puff, assuming you have a decent shell, any additional windproofness adds nothing but sweat. Even if it is cold, if you are exerting yourself you are producing moisture.

 

[neonorchid]

@palikona. There are many variables specific to each individual circumstances and everyone has an oppinion. No absoulte, no difinitive answer. Whats right for one will be wrong for another. The truth is anything short of ordering many options and tring them at home with all of your kit, run around the neighborhood when temps are below freezing and beyond, equates to nothing more then mental masturbation!

 

[palikona]

At that point I have switched to an insulated shell. Lets try to put some numbers to it. Including midlayers I would be wanting the equivalent of 200gm/m^2 synthetic insulation. I think the warmth of the Cerium LT may be equivalent to 120 - 140gm synthetic.
Atom AR: 120gm
Nano Puff/Air, Atom LT : 60gm each.

If using an uninsulated shell, you are looking at combining jackets. I have done it but then I feel like the kid in A Christmas Story. Many people do it however and don't complain. If you have to do that, using a technical fleece as one of the layers can help to maintain some level of breathability and reduce bulk.

When it comes to the Nano Puff, assuming you have a decent shell, any additional windproofness adds nothing but sweat. Even if it is cold, if you are exerting yourself you are producing moisture.

Most insulated shells are what, 60g of syn?
So to get to 200g, you add something like the Cerium LT?

 

[neonorchid]

 

[Scrundy]

Kuhl 1/4 zip is sweet mid layer. I ski the east in below zero all the time as a night skier. Base layer followed by Kuhl 1/4 followed by a wool vest then my shell. Never been chased off the hill yet because of cold

http://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/fleece/thor-14-zip/

 

[Viking9]

Get the Patagonia down shirt, the bright yellow one , don’t worry you’ll always have something over it , for 50% off.
You will never use fleece AGAIN.
Trust me , the last time I stayed in a HOTEL it was a Motel 6.

 

[palikona]

Get the Patagonia down shirt, the bright yellow one , don’t worry you’ll always have something over it , for 50% off.
You will never use fleece AGAIN.
Trust me , the last time I stayed in a HOTEL it was a Motel 6.

What's the diff between a Patty Down Shirt and Down Sweater?

 

[Viking9]

It’s much lighter and in my opinion more versatile.It’s warmth to weight ratio is very impressive. I will sometimes wear it under a hoody and because it’s wind proof can be very comfortable in twenty degree weather.Don’t worry about it getting wet because you really wouldn’t want to use it as a stand-alone garment anyway, it’s just a FANTASTIC LIGHTWEIGHT mid layer. I believe they are 250.00 but that’s for a blue one in season.You should be able to get an off color one for a serious discount.

 

[Corgski]

Most insulated shells are what, 60g of syn?
So to get to 200g, you add something like the Cerium LT?

My insulated shell is 140gm. As Neononrchid suggests, you need to try some of this out yourself. The trouble with suggesting an item of clothing is that everyone is different. We don't even know if Arcteryx will be a good fit for you, some of their pieces are too trim for me. I will however make the following suggestions:

You run cold and are struggling to find something for colder weather. Don't waste too much time or money on 60gm or equivalent pieces unless they are cheap, this goes for midlayers or insulated shells. Fleece can often be a cheaper, better alternative for those pieces. Preferences vary but based on your comments you do seem to need built up closer to 200gm (or equivalent) total.

Back off from the high end alpine oriented stuff unless you really like a specific piece. Not only are you paying for features you do not need, it may be features you don't like. For example, for me the 10 denier fabric on the Cerium LT is a deal breaker. It does however look like the sort of piece the ultralight backpacking guys will love, you may too. Downhill skiing is not as difficult to cater for as some other cold weather activities, the gear does not have to be expensive. I personally suggest the Atom AR IF it is a good fit. It is cheaper and and a more all round piece (hence AR). Try it and some of the other suggestions you see here.

If you decide to get an insulated shell, no need to get expensive - you are looking for $20 of insulation packaged in a useful form. You can get a quality full waterproof breathable down skiing jacket for under $400 list price. You can go much cheaper too and still find good jackets. Personally I am going to try the Stio Durrance jacket based on the fact that Stio was founded by the old Cloudveil guys and I liked some of their old stuff. Based on previous experiences with online clothes shopping, there is a 50/50 chance I hate the jacket and send it back.

You need to decide how you feel about synthetics vs down. It is not just a technical issue, they have a very different feel when wearing them. That feel is also different when used as mid layer compared to an outer layer.