Midlayers

[palikona]

^^^ thanks!

What insulated jacket do you have that has 140g of insulation?

 

[Corgski]

^^^ thanks!

What insulated jacket do you have that has 140g of insulation?

Arcteryx Kappa Hoody. Good jacket overall but not really focused on skiing. It has the storm hood as opposed to a drop hood with an independent collar and hood. Works great when you are actually wearing the hood but when not, I find the high collar and the hood intrusive - I am always adjusting it. I prefer the drop hood style design for skiing and everyday wear. However I can be excruciatingly picky, in other ways it is one of the nicest jackets I have worn. And at $425, surprisingly cheap for Arcteryx.

Hard to find another synthetic ski jacket with that much insulation. Perhaps the assumption is that one should switch to down beyond that?

 

[palikona]

How does a simple Polartec 200 fleece compare to a synthetic like a Nano Puff (for warmth under a layer)?

 

[Corgski]

How does a simple Polartec 200 fleece compare to a synthetic like a Nano Puff (for warmth under a layer)?

My impression (I have both) is that the fleece is very slightly warmer but still not warm enough for temps approaching 0F. The downside of 200wt classic fleece is that it is bulky. However if I had to choose I would always choose the fleece as the Nano Puff's poor breathability could cause cycles of overheating and feeling cold and damp. My Atom AR is still my best performer under a shell.

 

[tch]

I'm v. late to this discussion but read 2 pages about down. Why? As someone else noted, down compresses -- and then loses its insulating power when it does. Hence, IMHO, that pretty much rules it out as a mid-layer. I would suggest a synthetic fill mid-layer. If you're fixated on high end, you can buy a Patagonia Nano Puff, although lots of other companies make perfectly usable ones for lots less. I own two REI synthetic puffs, and they are warmer than fleece -- and much less bulky when packing -- and they stay warm under my shell b/c they don't compress at any pressure, whether it's the fit of my shell, or the back of the chairlift, or when I lean my arm on something.

I think down is oversold and is really best suited to true alpinists who need the lightness of the material and know how to use it, care for it, and keep it from getting wet.

Finally, FWIW, I don't really know much about the NanoPuff's lack of breathability; that has not been an issue for me. My REI puff is warmer than the 200 weight fleece I used to ski in.

 

[Corgski]

I'm v. late to this discussion but read 2 pages about down. Why? As someone else noted, down compresses -- and then loses its insulating power when it does. Hence, IMHO, that pretty much rules it out as a mid-layer. I would suggest a synthetic fill mid-layer. If you're fixated on high end, you can buy a Patagonia Nano Puff, although lots of other companies make perfectly usable ones for lots less. I own two REI synthetic puffs, and they are warmer than fleece -- and much less bulky when packing -- and they stay warm under my shell b/c they don't compress at any pressure, whether it's the fit of my shell, or the back of the chairlift, or when I lean my arm on something.

I think down is oversold and is really best suited to true alpinists who need the lightness of the material and know how to use it, care for it, and keep it from getting wet.

Finally, FWIW, I don't really know much about the NanoPuff's lack of breathability; that has not been an issue for me. My REI puff is warmer than the 200 weight fleece I used to ski in.

Basically agree. The comments I made about the Nano Puff are specific to that jacket, I wear synthetics almost exclusively. My opinion is that the Puff is a dated design that only survives due to historical popularity. The REI activator jacket is on sale for just under $90, contains 100gm Primaloft Silver Active. Even without the price difference, this is a better jacket for most people than the Puff.

 

[neonorchid]

I'm v. late to this discussion but read 2 pages about down. Why? As someone else noted, down compresses -- and then loses its insulating power when it does. Hence, IMHO, that pretty much rules it out as a mid-layer. I would suggest a synthetic fill mid-layer. If you're fixated on high end, you can buy a Patagonia Nano Puff, although lots of other companies make perfectly usable ones for lots less. I own two REI synthetic puffs, and they are warmer than fleece -- and much less bulky when packing -- and they stay warm under my shell b/c they don't compress at any pressure, whether it's the fit of my shell, or the back of the chairlift, or when I lean my arm on something.

I think down is oversold and is really best suited to true alpinists who need the lightness of the material and know how to use it, care for it, and keep it from getting wet.

Finally, FWIW, I don't really know much about the NanoPuff's lack of breathability; that has not been an issue for me. My REI puff is warmer than the 200 weight fleece I used to ski in.

What! "the back of a chairlift", when you lean your arm on something
Have you seen the First Ascent Evertherm Down jacket? http://www.eddiebauer.com/product/mens-evertherm-down-jacket/38832325
I'm curious to try one only all other FA jackets I've tried are not cut for me, i.e., small armholes and necklines/collars , too big and boxy in the middle.


It's my understanding Down will seriously out last Synthetic fill which compresses over time ending it's usefull life as an insulator. No idea about Evertherm ThinDown

Basically agree. The comments I made about the Nano Puff are specific to that jacket, I wear synthetics almost exclusively. My opinion is that the Puff is a dated design that only survives due to historical popularity. The REI activator jacket is on sale for just under $90, contains 100gm Primaloft Silver Active. Even without the price difference, this is a better jacket for most people than the Puff.

I must be trying the wrong syntethic jackets because I freeze using them as a baselayer at the resort.
Mid-layer's, Patagonia Nano-Air, TNF Thermoball, CloudvailPrimaloft Gold or Silver (same thing). Insulated Shell, Arc'teryx Shuksan, (fashion forward fit A+, micro small pockets Fail). I tried walking around the neighborhood at 27ºF with my two usual base layers and froze my but off. Sent it back.

Did very well yesterday X-C skiing in my neighborhood for ~ 2 - 2.5hours at 20ºF wearing nothing more then UnderArmour 2.0 baselayer top (lightweight fabric, can't wear 3.0 or 4.0, small necklines, stupid thick seam), synthetic Nano-Air jacket, very thin runners gloves and hat, very thin SmartWool ski socks and baselayer bottoms and TNF wind-block running pant.
Just as I could never wear Down for nordic, (may keep one in a small backpack or one that becomes its own stuff-sack clipped to something for warmth when I stop or if I were to have a mechanical breakdown in the middle of nowhere), I could never get away with this kit for Alpine lift-served.

Fwiw, Synthetic jacket comparison's (note, more breathability = less warmth) - https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/clothing-mens/best-down-jacket

 

[Corgski]

I must be trying the wrong syntethic jackets because I freeze using them as a baselayer at the resort.
Mid-layer's, Patagonia Nano-Air, TNF Thermoball, CloudvailPrimaloft Gold or Silver (same thing). Insulated Shell, Arc'teryx Shuksan, (fashion forward fit A+, micro small pockets Fail). I tried walking around the neighborhood at 27ºF with my two usual base layers and froze my but off. Sent it back.

Fwiw, Synthetic jacket comparison's (note, more breathability = less warmth) - https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/clothing-mens/best-down-jacket

My previous posts focused on the challenge of building up sufficient synthetic insulation to keep warm. When its cooler, I typically ski with a total of 200gm synthetic insulation, the Shukshan jacket has 80, Nano Air 60. I have gone up to 260 on a rare occasion (Kappa + Atom AR, not ideal but it worked). This is why I mentioned I was considering the down Stio Durrance jacket. Coming more from a winter hiking / climbing background, I put a lot of emphasis on breathability. Not just me, a key feature of the new mid layer down jackets (Cerium LT) are their new breathable downproof fabrics - breathable and downproof used to not go well together.

The decline of synthetic insulation with time is a good point, especially with respect to the more expensive jackets. The insulation decline is partly dependent on how long it is stored highly compressed, not really an issue with skiing so much. My jackets are looking pretty used before that becomes an issue.

 

[neonorchid]

My previous posts focused on the challenge of building up sufficient synthetic insulation to keep warm. When its cooler, I typically ski with a total of 200gm synthetic insulation, the Shukshan jacket has 80, Nano Air 60. I have gone up to 260 on a rare occasion (Kappa + Atom AR, not ideal but it worked). This is why I mentioned I was considering the down Stio Durrance jacket. Coming more from a winter hiking / climbing background, I put a lot of emphasis on breathability. Not just me, a key feature of the new mid layer down jackets (Cerium LT) are their new breathable downproof fabrics - breathable and downproof used to not go well together.

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I wasn't able to comfortably wear the thin and lightweight Nano-air under the synthetic insulated Shukshan shell without the neckline of the Shukshan feeling like a dive bell helmet on my shoulders.

Vapor permeability/breathability are high on my want list too. I think many people either don't know the difference or don't care. Lets face it, typically lift serve Alpine isn't the most physically active activity for many on the mountain.

...I wonder how @Ron is making out with his new Strafe NeoShell Alpha insulated shell ... supose we'll find out come next fall in Phil's Garrage Sale and Ski Swap

 

[Eddie]

Thanks all. I will look into the Nano Air, heck, the REI activator, a lot less than the $250 Patagonia. One more question then, for all who have one, how is the Nano Puff as a stand alone for every day use? Running errands, walking around my neighborhood, I have down Patagonia non ski jacket. Damn it hot. I can wear it when temps in upper teens, low 20s, wearing only a t underneath and am still hot. It is very light, yet bulky. Am thinking of the NP for temps mid 20s and above.

 

[neonorchid]

Thanks all. I will look into the Nano Air, heck, the REI activator, a lot less than the $250 Patagonia. One more question then, for all who have one, how is the Nano Puff as a stand alone for every day use? Running errands, walking around my neighborhood, I have down Patagonia non ski jacket. Damn it hot. I can wear it when temps in upper teens, low 20s, wearing only a t underneath and am still hot. It is very light, yet bulky. Am thinking of the NP for temps mid 20s and above.

Probably very good, I get a tremendous amount of use from the TNF Thermoball hoody for just that purpose.
Also, add TNF Ventrix (80g insulation, jacket version), to your list of Nano Air alternatives. https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens-ventrix-jacket-nf0a35ds

 

[Jersey Skier]

Bumping this thread to ask if anyone has doubled up on Nano Airs? I have both the Vest and the Hoody. These are the only mid layers I've used since getting them. However it is supposed to be single digits this week and I haven't skied that cold since using the Nano Airs. Not sure if the vest plus the hoody will be enough. I do tend to sweat a lot, especially if the trees are skiable, which is why I like these.

I also have various fleece, down and other synthetic jackets, I just really like these Nano Airs for breathability.

 

[pack21]

I'm in the doubt between a Patagonia Nano-air and the NF Ventrix.

I appreciate the more breathable, someone can comment knowingly?

 

[neonorchid]

I'm in the doubt between a Patagonia Nano-air and the NF Ventrix.

I appreciate the more breathable, someone can comment knowingly?

Get whichever one fits best. I have both. I find the warmth differences to be minamal, Ventrix breathes better, Nano-air neckline is more comfortable when used as a mid-layer. Actually, the first purchase was a Nano-air jacket a few years ago followed by a 2017/18 TNF Summit Series Ventrix hoody which I picked up on clearance at REI last summer and wore trail running all winter, love it! Washes well with powdered Tide laundry detergent on delicate cycle and then in the dryer on low as per washing instructions. Only I don't like hoodies as a mid layer under a ski shell. The extra bulk causes the shell's collar to tug on my chin. So, last fall I picked up a TNF Ventrix jacket to use as a midlayer but ended up returning it because the thickish seam of the collar pushed on the back of my neck when worn under a ski shell. Nano-air's collar seam extends down basically leaving only fabric behind the back of the neck which for me is much more comfortable under a shell. Just not quite as breathable as the Ventrix although, unless you are an active bump skiier I doubt you'd notice the difference when skiing lift-serve. On the skin track, yes. I absoultly notice the difference in breathability between the two as outer layer jackets when trail running.

 

[neonorchid]

The collar seam is actually thicker in the TNF " Ventrix Jacket" then in the TNF Ventrix "Hoody", still you can clearly see how the Nano-air collar seam differs from TNF Ventrix.

 

[pack21]

Get whichever one fits best. I have both. I find the warmth differences to be minamal, Ventrix breathes better, Nano-air neckline is more comfortable when used as a mid-layer. Actually, the first purchase was a Nano-air jacket a few years ago followed by a 2017/18 TNF Summit Series Ventrix hoody which I picked up on clearance at REI last summer and wore trail running all winter, love it! Washes well with powdered Tide laundry detergent on delicate cycle and then in the dryer on low as per washing instructions. Only I don't like hoodies as a mid layer under a ski shell. The extra bulk causes the shell's collar to tug on my chin. So, last fall I picked up a TNF Ventrix jacket to use as a midlayer but ended up returning it because the thickish seam of the collar pushed on the back of my neck when worn under a ski shell. Nano-air's collar seam extends down basically leaving only fabric behind the back of the neck which for me is much more comfortable under a shell. Just not quite as breathable as the Ventrix although, unless you are an active bump skiier I doubt you'd notice the difference when skiing lift-serve. On the skin track, yes. I absoultly notice the difference in breathability between the two as outer layer jackets when trail running.

Thanks for the very helpful information. And underneath the ski Shell, did you feel a lot of temperature difference between two?


Is to use with a hard-shell Event.

 

[neonorchid]

Thanks for the helpful information. And underneath the ski Shell, did you feel a lot of temperature difference between two?
Is to use with a hard-shell Event.

IDK. The Ventrix has 80g of insulation but is more breathable which subjectively, as an outer layer makes it more equal to the less breathable Nano air's 60g insulation. Under a shell, I'd guess the Ventrix should be warmer. I read a Ventrix vs Nano air review claiming the Ventrix to be "way more warm".
Between, climate, activity level and the amout of clothing I'm willing to take on a trip, I've yet to get that far with them. Have only walked around the neighborhood with them under a shell and they didn't match my down mid-layers for warmth, plus I don't like feeling bound up wearing multiple layers and my down jackets work. Also the Nano air is a size small so does not leave much room for more then one thin base layer without giving me armpit wedgies and I don't think it's warm enough for minimal layering doing lift serve at ~ 20ºF. The TNF Ventrix is a size medium and better in that regerd only as I said I'm not a fan of hoodies with a shell so never took it on a ski trip. I could see bringing both to try locally, and or for spring skiing on a trip when the opportunity occurs, same goes for touring.
As I said, been happy with my down jackets for mid layers, an Arcteryx Cerium SV "jacket" for the very cold Northeastern days in VT and a Norrona Lofoten suoer lightweight down jacket for everything else, i.e., out West. Both of the two down jackets fit well and are comfortable, the Norrona more so.
I'll try to update if I get a chance to try the two. Currently the most breathable shell I have to use is constructed of the latest generation Gore-tex Pro Shell fabric. As it is I haven't skiied a local hill where it's easy to bring and swap out ski kit in over two years, best we have is ~ 1000' vert drop and I'm not a fan of hardpack and man made snow.

Perhaps @Analisa will chime it? She seems to be well versed and up to date on all of this stuff.

 

[Analisa]

@pack21 - they look really similar at face value, but operate pretty differently, and particularly, the breathability on the Ventrix is dynamic, so it could be better and worse than the Nano Air.

The Nano's FullRange insulation is Patagonia's customer facing name for 3DeFX+, which is a coiling yarn pattern, which allows it to be really low density and allows it to stretch easily. It's also unique because the spirals create kind of an interlocking matrix where insulation leakage isn't an issue, so you can get away with a much thinner, more loosely knitted or woven face fabric compared to a down jacket where feathers would pull out, which Patagonia does. It's a woven with mechanical stretch, meaning that the face fabric is woven loosely and then shrunk down, which never gets as tight as a non-stretch woven and the looseness provides breathability/reduces wind protection.

The Ventrix's insulation is quite different, with slits that open and close as the body moves. The main variable is your body. If you're "in spec" where your measurements fall pretty cleanly into one size in their size chart, the vents will probably work for you. If your proportions are different than their fit form/fit model, you might have issues with slits being under tension too often or not opening enough. Likewise, it takes movement to open the vents, and the movement needs to come from your shoulders to pull the vents open, so I'm not surprised that NF labels it as a climbing jacket (even the girl "running" in their proto design on the Gear Junkie page has really exaggerated movements). The amount of breathability you'd get out of this jacket would change pretty drastically if you were using it on a rock or ice pitch compared to downhill skiing (unless you're getting real aggressive with those pole plants). It's also probably more wind resistant since they're using spandex in their wovens instead of relying on mechanical stretch, but that also means better durability. The arms are a much higher denier, meaning a thicker, more durable weave, which goes back to the climbing end use that the designers were working towards where they expect the user is going to see a lot of abrasion from the elbow down.

If you're looking for jackets more comparable to the Nano Air, I'd look at some of the options with Polartec Alpha - really diverse group of options based on how well you want the jacket to perform for warmth/breathability/durability.

 

[pack21]

Good points given by both, thanks to @neonorchid for pointing the thick seam of the VentriX on the shoulders, i don't like to feel it either.
And thank to @Analisa for point that the holes in the Ventrix to work, the jacket must be regular/Slim fit, I hate it too, i like some room.

Obviously i have other cheap midlayers, but now I'm doing upgrades to the breathing level and weight, to remove total weight to the whole set.

Thanks both.

 

[blackke17]

good thread. thanks for the tips. picked up a Nano-Air Light Hybrid Jacket from the pattagucci outlet in SLC for 50 bucks at a big sale there over the weekend.