Meh. You haven't been subjected to the Taos treatment yet. It takes years for many people. Maybe you're not special in that regard. You are funny though. We need some young blood (ahem) at the gatherings. Awaiting your appearance on the roll call.
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MA Request - Learning to Carve in 2024
- Thread starter az29okg
- Start date
Yes - this is my focus.
Yes you are correct in that this is the type of turn initiation that I am most comfortable with and my default. In the videos, I wasn't even thinking about it so ended up initiating turns by extending. I am aware of the flex to release to initiate a turn and I do practice doing it, but don't have any videos of me doing it. I usually use flex to release on short quick turns (when the snow conditions are good, like hero snow) on a moderate gradient (blue run) and the moderate speeds may likely be compensating for my poor balance/technique. So, for these short turns, I initiate the turn by flexing (feels like I'm pulling my feet up) and pulling my feet back underneath me. Once the feet are back underneath my body, I then put the skis onto the new edge and extend them outwards to the new side. I then push my feet forward, almost feels like I'm slicing the snow with my skis, through the apex of the turn. Throughout this, I try to keep my upper body as still as I can, facing down the hill, so just the legs/feet are turning underneath me.
I am trying to tip the skis without leaning my body, as well as keeping the upper body vertical. However, what my brain is telling me to do is not what my body is doing (as evident by the videos).
I think this is a key problem with my skiing. I think I'm angulating, but instead my upper body is leaning into the turn. So, my center of mass is too far inside for that turn radius and I end up with too much weight on my inside ski. I often find myself using the inside ski as a crutch to keep myself upright.
Prosper is right in that I need to practice stork turns (I hate doing stork turns!).
Correct.
Correct.
By the way - I want to thank everyone for their comments. I am finding them very helpful.
Since joining the skitalk forum about 1 year ago, I've learned a lot, found out that my skiing sucks (this is a good thing because its helping me to learn/improve), and gotten a better understanding of the skiing etiquette.
The longer video shows you are balanced mostly on the inside ski until late in the turn. The tips converge at each transition - you are tipping the new outside ski while the old outside ski still holds most of your weight. If you get a little bit sloppier with this the tips will cross and you splat.
You need to commit to the new outside ski much earlier. One way to do this (mentally) is to aggressively lighten and tip the old outside/new inside ski into the new turn. This naturally shifts balance to the new outside ski.
This early commit is harder to do the steeper it gets. The moves to do it become more exaggerated as the pitch gets steeper.
You need to commit to the new outside ski much earlier. One way to do this (mentally) is to aggressively lighten and tip the old outside/new inside ski into the new turn. This naturally shifts balance to the new outside ski.
This early commit is harder to do the steeper it gets. The moves to do it become more exaggerated as the pitch gets steeper.
@Mel SEE
@François Pugh - What is meant by the above?
What do you call a girl with one leg longer than the other?
Ilene.
If you have one leg longer than another and both oar on the ground you will be inclined. I didn't want to use long leg short leg because that might encourage pushing with the longer leg.
If you are in the beginning stages of a turn, you will increase the tipping action by making the inside leg shorter. Often the instruction to shorten one leg doesn't work because a lot of people do more than instructed, and in order to avoid leaning like a three legged stool with one leg cut off short (or a 4-legged stool with the two right legs cut off short), they counter balance to maintain balance - just let yourself lean. Also move your inside knee out of the way.
One more thing, you have to be going fast enough so that when the skis tip the turn forces of the turn dialed up will be enough to counterbalance your lean angle.
@az29okg, are you still here? I'm late on responding to your detailed post above. I hope your season is still going so that you can use this if you are so tempted. I'm going to respond with three posts.
This first one is my overview of what's going on, given what you've posted. I am focusing on what you need to do to learn to carve.
...........................................................................
--Your skis are not carving in your videos because of outside ski slippage caused by leaning in, pressing on the outside ski, and inside ski weighting. There may be some manual rotation of the skis as well; not sure. In addition there is late ski engagement and critical edge angle (aka platform angle) is missing.
To make carving possible a number of your assumptions need to be revised. There's a progression you can work with that can help you make these changes. It is described in my third post below. Here's an overview of the changes you need to enact, all of which should be attainable since they are linked to each other.
1. Change your focus from the new outside ski to new inside ski at initiation, then keep your focus on the inside ski as the turn progresses.
2. Replace your initiation strategy from extending your new outside leg to flexing your new inside leg. Focus on staying low between turns instead of rising up. Do nothing with the new outside leg/foot/ski. Staying low as you flex the new inside leg will help to suppress your habitual extension of the new outside leg.
3. Stop pressuring/pressing on the outside ski. Instead, remove weight from inside ski by flexing that new inside leg early at initiation. Pressure will build on that outside ski by default. You will get your early pressure without the side-effect of outside ski slippage which follows from pressing outward on it.
4. Create edge angles by shortening the inside leg instead of by leaning in. The shortened/flexed inside leg will tilt when you flex/shorten it, and this will in turn tilt the new outside leg and ski. Shortening the inside leg creates the edge angle on both skis. Shorten it faster, get edge angles faster. Shorten it more, get higher edge angles. No attention to the outside foot/leg/ski is required. For added oomph, tip the new inside foot inside the boot to its little toe edge as you flex/shorten its leg. Or, same thing, raise that foot's arch. Establishing edge angles will happen earlier in the turn when you shorten/flex that new inside leg instead of extending the new outside leg. It will give you the possibility of establishing higher edge angles without any slippage.
5. Learn to do stork turns in order to train your body to do this flexion. Morph stork turns into flexion turns.
6. Flexion turns will eliminate a number of issues attached to the outside ski focus and extension of the outside leg (see the next post). By eliminating these issues, flexion turns will open up the potential for carving.
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@az29okg, here are some details and explanations below.
There is overlap because all these issues are related.
#1: You focus now exclusively on the new outside ski and leg.
You extend your new outside leg to initiate your turns.
The extension brings with it unwanted baggage: leaning in, flatter inside ski, varying stance width, weight on the inside ski, outside ski slippage, inattention to the new inside ski. There may be some manual rotation of the skis as well. This baggage removes the potential for carving.
.................Solution ... Shift focus to the new inside ski and leg.
.................Flex that new inside leg to initiate the new turn.
.................Ignore the new outside leg. Really.
Make this your new default. Stay low in transition rather than standing tall. With this change that list of baggage will disappear. See the progression in the next post for training your body to do this flexion.
#2: You actively "pressure" the new outside ski.
You press on the new outside ski to get it away from the body with early pressure on it. Pressing contributes to the leaning, the slippage, the inside weighting, etc.
.................Solution ... Stop pressing.
.................Instead, remove weight from the new inside ski by flexing its leg.
.................Weight will transfer to the new outside ski and pressure will build.
.................The new turn will start.
Your weight will automatically transfer to the new outside ski when you remove it from the new inside ski. Weight and pressure will move by default to the new outside ski when removed from the new inside ski. Pressure will build as a result of the turn forces. Pressing is not needed. Benefit: that unwanted baggage will disappear.
#3. You are leaning in.
This edges your outside ski but it also weights the inside ski. You have been trying to angulate to direct weight to the outside ski, but your body refuses.
.................Solution ... Learn to do stork turns.
.................A successful stork turn directs pressure to the new outside ski.
.................This requires holding torso upright instead of leaning it.
Flex the new inside leg to release the old turn and start the new turn. Balance on the new outside ski with torso staying upright instead of leaning sideways. The outside ski slippage will reduce and/or disappear with the resulting flexion turn.
4: You can already make retraction turns.
This means your body is already familiar with flexing two legs to release. Since you can flex two legs, you can flex one. You are part of the way to making flexion turns.
.................Use this body familiarity with flexion to learn to make stork turns.
You can morph stork turns into flexion turns. Then you can then morph flexion turns into carved turns. See stork turn progression below.
There is overlap because all these issues are related.
#1: You focus now exclusively on the new outside ski and leg.
You extend your new outside leg to initiate your turns.
The extension brings with it unwanted baggage: leaning in, flatter inside ski, varying stance width, weight on the inside ski, outside ski slippage, inattention to the new inside ski. There may be some manual rotation of the skis as well. This baggage removes the potential for carving.
.................Solution ... Shift focus to the new inside ski and leg.
.................Flex that new inside leg to initiate the new turn.
.................Ignore the new outside leg. Really.
Make this your new default. Stay low in transition rather than standing tall. With this change that list of baggage will disappear. See the progression in the next post for training your body to do this flexion.
#2: You actively "pressure" the new outside ski.
You press on the new outside ski to get it away from the body with early pressure on it. Pressing contributes to the leaning, the slippage, the inside weighting, etc.
.................Solution ... Stop pressing.
.................Instead, remove weight from the new inside ski by flexing its leg.
.................Weight will transfer to the new outside ski and pressure will build.
.................The new turn will start.
Your weight will automatically transfer to the new outside ski when you remove it from the new inside ski. Weight and pressure will move by default to the new outside ski when removed from the new inside ski. Pressure will build as a result of the turn forces. Pressing is not needed. Benefit: that unwanted baggage will disappear.
#3. You are leaning in.
This edges your outside ski but it also weights the inside ski. You have been trying to angulate to direct weight to the outside ski, but your body refuses.
.................Solution ... Learn to do stork turns.
.................A successful stork turn directs pressure to the new outside ski.
.................This requires holding torso upright instead of leaning it.
Flex the new inside leg to release the old turn and start the new turn. Balance on the new outside ski with torso staying upright instead of leaning sideways. The outside ski slippage will reduce and/or disappear with the resulting flexion turn.
4: You can already make retraction turns.
This means your body is already familiar with flexing two legs to release. Since you can flex two legs, you can flex one. You are part of the way to making flexion turns.
.................Use this body familiarity with flexion to learn to make stork turns.
You can morph stork turns into flexion turns. Then you can then morph flexion turns into carved turns. See stork turn progression below.
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@az29okg, here's my suggested progression for you to try. Others upthread have suggested stork turns, but you may be having difficulty doing them. This progression leads to stork turns by way of small steps. I hope this helps. Stork turns will solve most of the issues blocking your road to carving. You will morph them into flexion turns, which will open up the potential for making carved turns. If you don't need this many steps, just skip some.
a. uphill thumpers in a traverse
Traverse. Lift the tail of the uphill ski. Keep tip on snow. Set tail down. Lift it. Set it down. You can set it down with a loud "thump." Thump thump thump all the way across the trail. You do not have to lift the tail high. Keep tip on snow the whole time. At the end of your traverse, turn then repeat in the other direction. Experiment. How high can you lift that tail? ** If the tip refuses to stay on the snow, pull that lifted foot back as you lift the tail. Foot must go back. ***If the tip still refuses to stay down, dorsiflex the stance ankle more and raise your hips higher. You may be in the back seat. Dorsiflexing and hip raising can get you forward. Then the tip should behave and stay down on the snow.
b. downhill thumpers in a traverse
Traverse. Lift and thump the downhill tail. Thump thump thump. Turn and repeat in the other direction. Repeat. This is more difficult than uphill thumpers. Persist.
c. stork turns with NIS tail lifted above fall line
While doing b above, hold onto the last downhill tail lift at the end of the traverse. This lingering removal of weight from the new inside (downhill) ski will transfer your weight firmly to the new outside ski. Keep it there by holding onto the tail lift. Do not lean back uphill. Your CoM will want to move downhill over that lifted tail. Let it do that.... and around you'll go. You will have just done your first stork turn. Repeat until you can link stork turns without a thumping traverse. The key is to start the turn by letting your CoM move across that downhill ski as its tail is lifted. People find this difficult. Persist.
d. one-ski turns with entire NIS ski lifted above fall line
Morph your new inside tail lifts into lifting the whole ski. Lift the entire ski at the end of the traverse. Not high, just a little. Keep it parallel to the snow surface. You will be heading toward the trees. Do this first, repeatedly, in a traverse, set it down, lift, repeat. Lift it and hold at the end of the traverse; allow your CoM to cross that lifted ski as you hold it airborne. Around you'll go. KEEP IT LIFTED all the way around until the ski is heading back across the slope. See what radius your ski will create. This is a one-ski turn. Link one ski turns, alternating which ski you raise so that you are always turning on the new outside ski. People have difficulty doing these at first. Persevere.
e. flexion turns
Instead of lifting the entire new inside ski, lighten it. Follow the same progression but allow it to slide lightly along the snow surface. Lighten, set down, lighten, set down. At the end of the traverse, lighten and hold it light; allow the CoM to cross the ski; keep it light and around you'll go. You are now doing flexion turns.
f. additional NIS movements for flexion turns: ankle-tip, pull-back, knee-roll
While doing these flexion turns, pull that lightened foot back for added oomph. Experiment with how the pull-back affects the turn. Experiment with how tipping the foot of that lightened ski to its little toe edge adds oomph. Experiment with how rolling that new inside knee over towards the snow affects these flexion turns. Try combinations of all these additional variations as you become familiar with flexion turns. How much can you control your radius by adding and subtracting and combining these variations?
g. one-ski turns with whole ski lifted, tipped, pulled back, and with knee rolled, starting above the fall line.
Use the progression (traverse first, lift and set down, etc.) to successfully do one-ski turns using tipping, pulling back, and knee-rolling. When you can lift and hold that ski from a traverse, without doing anything else to start a turn, allow the CoM to cross, and continue to hold the ski airborne, you can be making carved turns if you balance well (no pushing, no pressing!) Avoid leaning your torso back uphill or inside the new turn. For added oomph to your turns, tip the lifted airborne foot to its little toe edge. Turn and look at your tracks to see if tail follows tips. When you have narrow tracks, you will be making carved turns.
a. uphill thumpers in a traverse
Traverse. Lift the tail of the uphill ski. Keep tip on snow. Set tail down. Lift it. Set it down. You can set it down with a loud "thump." Thump thump thump all the way across the trail. You do not have to lift the tail high. Keep tip on snow the whole time. At the end of your traverse, turn then repeat in the other direction. Experiment. How high can you lift that tail? ** If the tip refuses to stay on the snow, pull that lifted foot back as you lift the tail. Foot must go back. ***If the tip still refuses to stay down, dorsiflex the stance ankle more and raise your hips higher. You may be in the back seat. Dorsiflexing and hip raising can get you forward. Then the tip should behave and stay down on the snow.
b. downhill thumpers in a traverse
Traverse. Lift and thump the downhill tail. Thump thump thump. Turn and repeat in the other direction. Repeat. This is more difficult than uphill thumpers. Persist.
c. stork turns with NIS tail lifted above fall line
While doing b above, hold onto the last downhill tail lift at the end of the traverse. This lingering removal of weight from the new inside (downhill) ski will transfer your weight firmly to the new outside ski. Keep it there by holding onto the tail lift. Do not lean back uphill. Your CoM will want to move downhill over that lifted tail. Let it do that.... and around you'll go. You will have just done your first stork turn. Repeat until you can link stork turns without a thumping traverse. The key is to start the turn by letting your CoM move across that downhill ski as its tail is lifted. People find this difficult. Persist.
d. one-ski turns with entire NIS ski lifted above fall line
Morph your new inside tail lifts into lifting the whole ski. Lift the entire ski at the end of the traverse. Not high, just a little. Keep it parallel to the snow surface. You will be heading toward the trees. Do this first, repeatedly, in a traverse, set it down, lift, repeat. Lift it and hold at the end of the traverse; allow your CoM to cross that lifted ski as you hold it airborne. Around you'll go. KEEP IT LIFTED all the way around until the ski is heading back across the slope. See what radius your ski will create. This is a one-ski turn. Link one ski turns, alternating which ski you raise so that you are always turning on the new outside ski. People have difficulty doing these at first. Persevere.
e. flexion turns
Instead of lifting the entire new inside ski, lighten it. Follow the same progression but allow it to slide lightly along the snow surface. Lighten, set down, lighten, set down. At the end of the traverse, lighten and hold it light; allow the CoM to cross the ski; keep it light and around you'll go. You are now doing flexion turns.
f. additional NIS movements for flexion turns: ankle-tip, pull-back, knee-roll
While doing these flexion turns, pull that lightened foot back for added oomph. Experiment with how the pull-back affects the turn. Experiment with how tipping the foot of that lightened ski to its little toe edge adds oomph. Experiment with how rolling that new inside knee over towards the snow affects these flexion turns. Try combinations of all these additional variations as you become familiar with flexion turns. How much can you control your radius by adding and subtracting and combining these variations?
g. one-ski turns with whole ski lifted, tipped, pulled back, and with knee rolled, starting above the fall line.
Use the progression (traverse first, lift and set down, etc.) to successfully do one-ski turns using tipping, pulling back, and knee-rolling. When you can lift and hold that ski from a traverse, without doing anything else to start a turn, allow the CoM to cross, and continue to hold the ski airborne, you can be making carved turns if you balance well (no pushing, no pressing!) Avoid leaning your torso back uphill or inside the new turn. For added oomph to your turns, tip the lifted airborne foot to its little toe edge. Turn and look at your tracks to see if tail follows tips. When you have narrow tracks, you will be making carved turns.
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Great feedback @LiquidFeet . I’ve been following along as I feel that I’m in a similar spot as the OP. Had a few lessons back in February and my instructor prescribed most of the drills that you’ve listed above.
Wow, thanks for the extensive feedback.
My last day skiing in Ontario was on Sat Mar 23 (trying to avoid the rocks). I spent some time trying to do stork turns (turning on just the outside ski). I found it very difficult. So, it reinforced the fact that I have been using my inside ski/leg as a crutch to help me balance because i had leaned in too much.
Not sure if I will be skiing anymore this season. But looking forward to digesting what you (and everyone else) wrote and applying it next season.
The bit about anterior/posterior pelvis tilt was very interesting.
Can you go ice skating? Same basic movements. (Or roller blading, even.)
Last hockey game was on Mar 30. I can balance on one skate fairly well, though my forward crossover right turn is weaker than my left turn. The weaker part is when I am on my right (inside skate) and moving my left skate over the right skate. Likely because I don't practice my right crossover turn as much as everyone does their warmup laps in a counter-clockwise (left turns) direction around the rink.....Will have to go against the flow next year.
I also don't angulate in my turns, just lean into the turn. Do people angulate when making turns on skates?
P.S. I didn't go through the formalized hockey program growing up...too expensive. So, it was just self-taught playing pickup hockey on outdoor rinks. So, I am pretty sure I have bad habits in my skating techniques.
The basic point is that that when you perform core ice skating movements you aren't skidding; you're carving. I.e., the tail of the blade glides in the same groove as the toe of the blade. (I'm not an ice skater so pardon my made-up terminology.)
I know there is nuance to this in terms of the rocker you have in a hockey blade, yadda yadda yadda. But the BASIC movement is not skidding. Contrast with what 95% of skiers are doing 95% of the time on the hill.
