• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

MA Request - Learning to Carve in 2024

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
Last year, I purchased a pair of 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length) and blamed the ski for my skiing shortcomings. So, this year, I've been on a quest to improve my skiing. I purchased the CARV unit and also took 4 days of group lessons (2023 Dec 14-15, and 2024 Feb 1-2). I've also done 38 days of skiing this season.

I've attached links to three videos shot using the CARV app (the CARV statistics are shown at the end of each video). In each of these videos, I was trying my best to carve.
  • Video 1 (2024 Jan 27 - Aspen Mountain): This is a steep blue run done using my 2021 Elan Ripstick 96 (180 cm length).
  • Video 2 (2024 Feb 21 - Mont Tremblant): This is on a green run using my 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length). I now like skiing the e-Race Pro more than my Ripsticks on groomed runs.
  • Video 3 (2024 Feb 24 - Mont Tremblant): This is an a green run demoing the 2024 Atomic Redster Revoshock S (165 cm length). I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense).
Looking for feedback to improve my skiing.

Thanks,

Sam.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,394
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
Sam, there is some nice skiing in there. Clearly the Carv metrics like a lot of what you are doing. There are some major things, however, that you need to do in order to get more performance from your skis.

The biggest issue I see is the way you are creating edge angle. It almost exclusively comes from inclination of your body into the turn. In fact, your mechanism of changing your edges is to extend your inside leg and push your mass into the inside of the new turn. As your mass moves inside, you create edge angle almost exclusively by banking of the body to the inside. The result is two fold: first, there is not a lot of ski engagement in the top of the turn as your body is moving away from your skis inside the turn. Second, you wind up with more weight on the inside ski than is optimal.

If you really want to improve, then you need to learn to release your skis by flexing (shortening) the outside leg and rolling your feet, ankles, and lower leg into the new turn. The mechanics you need to learn are creating edge angle through rotation of the legs: both the lower leg and the upper leg. You will need to be in a lower stance through transition rather than at your tallest at edge change.

Next, level your shoulders and pelvis at the fall line. This will have the effect of creating edge angle through inclination (body mass inside the turn) and angulation (creating edge angle through angle at the hip) resulting in greater pressure on the outside ski.

That's my $.02.

Mike
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,451
Location
Denver, CO
Before any discussion on skiing technique, are you aware of the variables the affect your fore/aft balance? These are things like your boot setup (ramp, forward lean) and binding delta (difference in height between the toe and heel)? Keep these in mind and learn all you can. You would be surprised just how impactful this can be on learning to ski with higher performance. It's also probably the reason you experienced such a difference in performance between the two skis (very different binding deltas).

With that said, I'd say that the number one thing you should start working on is how to truly balance over your outside (stance) ski when making a ski turn. Just by learning to get off your inside ski, you will start to figure out things like how to counterbalance (so that you're not falling to the inside). This should also provide feedback on your edging ability (ski tipping).

Skiing a great turn should be approached by skiing from the snow up. IOW, we ski with our feet and that in turn will drive the kinetic chain of movements with the body parts above our feet. Focus on inversion and eversion of your feet to create the tipping angles. Fight the urge to push your body into the center of the turn too early.

Finally, you need a good mental image of what great ski turns look like. Watch the racers free skiing on this youtube channel. Slow down the playback speed and really study what's happening from the snow up.
 

Yepow

Excuse me, I'm an intermediate
Skier
Joined
Mar 8, 2022
Posts
555
Location
SK, Canada
Sam, there is some nice skiing in there. Clearly the Carv metrics like a lot of what you are doing. There are some major things, however, that you need to do in order to get more performance from your skis.

The biggest issue I see is the way you are creating edge angle. It almost exclusively comes from inclination of your body into the turn. In fact, your mechanism of changing your edges is to extend your inside leg and push your mass into the inside of the new turn. As your mass moves inside, you create edge angle almost exclusively by banking of the body to the inside. The result is two fold: first, there is not a lot of ski engagement in the top of the turn as your body is moving away from your skis inside the turn. Second, you wind up with more weight on the inside ski than is optimal.

If you really want to improve, then you need to learn to release your skis by flexing (shortening) the outside leg and rolling your feet, ankles, and lower leg into the new turn. The mechanics you need to learn are creating edge angle through rotation of the legs: both the lower leg and the upper leg. You will need to be in a lower stance through transition rather than at your tallest at edge change.

Next, level your shoulders and pelvis at the fall line. This will have the effect of creating edge angle through inclination (body mass inside the turn) and angulation (creating edge angle through angle at the hip) resulting in greater pressure on the outside ski.

That's my $.02.

Mike
Thank you! this is exactly what I need, while not the OP :)
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,871
Location
Europe
Last year, I purchased a pair of 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length) and blamed the ski for my skiing shortcomings. So, this year, I've been on a quest to improve my skiing. I purchased the CARV unit and also took 4 days of group lessons (2023 Dec 14-15, and 2024 Feb 1-2). I've also done 38 days of skiing this season.

I've attached links to three videos shot using the CARV app (the CARV statistics are shown at the end of each video). In each of these videos, I was trying my best to carve.
  • Video 1 (2024 Jan 27 - Aspen Mountain): This is a steep blue run done using my 2021 Elan Ripstick 96 (180 cm length).
  • Video 2 (2024 Feb 21 - Mont Tremblant): This is on a green run using my 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length). I now like skiing the e-Race Pro more than my Ripsticks on groomed runs.
  • Video 3 (2024 Feb 24 - Mont Tremblant): This is an a green run demoing the 2024 Atomic Redster Revoshock S (165 cm length). I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense).
Looking for feedback to improve my skiing.

Thanks,

Sam.

I am only here to encourage you and say you are doing great. Lots of things to work on, lots to improve but look at the bright side-that means you will be spending lotsa days on snow.
And spending more time on snow is what skiing is all about.

Keep at it.
 

Bad Bob

I golf worse than I ski.
Skier
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
5,919
Location
West of CDA South of Canada
Really impressive improvement in a month!
What others are saying on getting on the outside ski, and using the entire ski.
On the using the entire ski, here is a really simple exercise to feel it. This is a garland drill.
In a fairly steep traverse put most of your weight on the downhill ski and move your weight forward (over your toes) to pressure the tips. You should feel the tips engage and draw you up the hill. Now move your weight back over the arch of the foot and increase the pressure to the uphill ski (you should feel your tips move towards the fall line). Repeat in both directions.
You just experienced one way to initiate and complete turns. Skiing is edging, weighting, and pressuring the skis; the more ways you play with and balance these, the more varied your skills become.
 
Thread Starter
TS
A

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
Before any discussion on skiing technique, are you aware of the variables the affect your fore/aft balance? These are things like your boot setup (ramp, forward lean) and binding delta (difference in height between the toe and heel)? Keep these in mind and learn all you can. You would be surprised just how impactful this can be on learning to ski with higher performance. It's also probably the reason you experienced such a difference in performance between the two skis (very different binding deltas).
The Elan Ripstick and Head e-Race Pro both have the Tyrolia PR bases installed and I use the same Protector PR13 bindings on them. So, that would eliminate any binding deltas between these two skis.

The bindings were different on the Atomic Redster S9, so i have no ideas how different the binding deltas would be from my Tyrolia Protectors. But the Atomic Redster S9 were felt very different from my Head e-Race Pros. I wonder what would happen if I changed the bindings to Protector PR13.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,338
Location
NYC
I wonder what would happen if I changed the bindings to Protector PR13.

Can't. The Atomic plate on the S9 (FIS or consumer) is not compatible with suggested binding.
 
Thread Starter
TS
A

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
@Mike_King, @Noodler, and @Bad_Bob – Thanks for your feedback and improvement tips. I will try to get to Mont Tremblant next week and focus on balancing on outside ski, flex transition, creating edging at the feet/lower legs.
 
Thread Starter
TS
A

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
Can't. The Atomic plate on the S9 (FIS or consumer) is not compatible with suggested binding.
I could remove the plate on the S9 and then install the new PR rails directly onto the ski (just like I did on the Head e-Race Pro). Though, now I'm wondering how the e-Race would ski with its original plate/binding.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,338
Location
NYC
I could remove the plate on the S9 and then install the new PR rails directly onto the ski (just like I did on the Head e-Race Pro). Though, now I'm wondering how the e-Race would ski with its original plate/binding.

Why would you want to do that?

When you remove the plate on a pair of SL, you basically neutered the ski.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,394
Location
Truckee
Mike King nailed it.

This is the first time I've seen a detailed report of CARV statistics. Very interesting to compare to the video.
Video 1 (2024 Jan 27 - Aspen Mountain): This is a steep blue run done using my 2021 Elan Ripstick 96 (180 cm length).
Here you have the least success directing balance to the outside foot. A function of fat skis and steeper terrain (blue here, vs. green for the others), probably. It's more challenging to balance over the edge of a fat ski. More leverage required, as it's farther from the center of your foot.
Video 2 (2024 Feb 21 - Mont Tremblant): This is on a green run using my 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length). I now like skiing the e-Race Pro more than my Ripsticks on groomed runs.
Yep, better success.
Video 3 (2024 Feb 24 - Mont Tremblant): This is an a green run demoing the 2024 Atomic Redster Revoshock S (165 cm length). I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense).
All the racer kids seem to like them. :D The question is, can you handle them, LOL? Their desire to trench was evident from the video.
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
12,938
Location
Maine
Last year, I purchased a pair of 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length) and blamed the ski for my skiing shortcomings. So, this year, I've been on a quest to improve my skiing. I purchased the CARV unit and also took 4 days of group lessons (2023 Dec 14-15, and 2024 Feb 1-2). I've also done 38 days of skiing this season.

I've attached links to three videos shot using the CARV app (the CARV statistics are shown at the end of each video). In each of these videos, I was trying my best to carve.
  • Video 1 (2024 Jan 27 - Aspen Mountain): This is a steep blue run done using my 2021 Elan Ripstick 96 (180 cm length).
  • Video 2 (2024 Feb 21 - Mont Tremblant): This is on a green run using my 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length). I now like skiing the e-Race Pro more than my Ripsticks on groomed runs.
  • Video 3 (2024 Feb 24 - Mont Tremblant): This is an a green run demoing the 2024 Atomic Redster Revoshock S (165 cm length). I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense).
Looking for feedback to improve my skiing.

Thanks,

Sam.
I'd like to see a few more seconds of actual skiing - front, side, and rear views - and less of the other stuff. Those clips are really short.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,727
Location
New England
I was trying my best to carve.
  • Video 1 (2024 Jan 27 - Aspen Mountain): This is a steep blue run done using my 2021 Elan Ripstick 96 (180 cm length).
  • Video 2 (2024 Feb 21 - Mont Tremblant): This is on a green run using my 2023 Head e-Race Pro (170 cm length). I now like skiing the e-Race Pro more than my Ripsticks on groomed runs.
  • Video 3 (2024 Feb 24 - Mont Tremblant): This is an a green run demoing the 2024 Atomic Redster Revoshock S (165 cm length). I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense).
@az29okg, I applaud your courage in posting your videos and asking for advice. So here goes.

I'm responding to what I see in your three videos, not to the Carv reports. In particular, I'm going to focus on things I see that need work, then ask some questions about your conceptual focus.

--In your first video, it's evident that the outside ski is sliding outward at apex. Tail is not following tip in its groove. Your stance widens as this happens. Conclusion: your inside ski has too much weight on it. And it's not tipped to its little toe edge enough; it's flatter than the outside ski. My guess is that your focus in these turns is mostly on getting that outside ski to build edge and pressure to the fall line. This leaves the inside ski to keep up, which it isn't doing.

1. Am I right about that your focus is on the outside ski?

--In your second video more is visible. A close following camera reveals much more than one stationary at the bottom of the run. You are lengthening your old inside leg to start your turns, which brings your body upward at transition. This can be called "extend to release." Your focus is probably on that outside ski, maybe in particular on getting early pressure on it. You may also be attempting to get it up on edge early, above the fall line, with this extension. These are admirable goals, but they are not working to help you get the turns you desire. A flex-to-release, as mentioned above, would achieve these goals more readily. As that outside ski tips onto its new edge, you lean your whole body into the turn. The inside shoulder drops with each turn. Your upper body tilts almost match the tilt of your outside leg. Maybe you do this in order to achieve high pressure on that outside ski at the fall line. High pressure at fall line is a consequence of an arc-to-arc carved turn, but there's a better way to achieve this than directly focusing on pressure. Then you pause as that ski gets way out there. Your body movements stop for a bit, maybe because you are waiting for pressure build-up (I'm guessing). The pause is not beneficial. If your pressure is increasing (Carv I"m sure tells you whether it is or not). Added pressure at this point will be because gravity adds to the forces of the turn when the ski is pointed downhill, not because your whole body is pressing hard on the ski. Then you start the next turn by extending that inside leg.

2. Am I right that your focus is on the extension of that new outside leg for early edging, the lean to build pressure on that outside ski, and the pause to add to the pressure?

--In your third video, you extend the old inside leg to start the turn then lean with your whole body (note the dropped inside shoulder). The lean is important to your edging. Your body from shoulders to feet is acting as a whole unit to tilt that outside lower leg, thus boot cuff, thus ski onto its edge. I think your focus is on that outside ski pretty much exclusively, still leaving the inside ski to tag along and maybe keep up. It does not do that. You can see your stance width changing as the outside ski moves outward while the inside ski stays more up under your body. I don't see the pause with these skis. Their shorter radius of the Redster is helping you keep up a steady tempo. I suspect this is part of why you said " I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense)."

I think your focus on these turns was much like the previous ones, to get early edging and pressure on that outside ski. The Redster sped up your tempo and so you didn't feel like you needed to pause to build up more pressure on that outside ski. You could trust the ski. I also think you equate building pressure with gaining grip. (It works the other way. Building grip builds pressure.)

3. Am I right that you are building pressure in order to build grip?

I'll wait for your answers to those questions before responding with a different way to focus when making carved turns. I suspect your responses will make it much easier for those of us posting suggestions to pinpoint different targets for your attention.

What we want is to help you get your weight properly balanced on the outside ski (without too much weight left on the inside ski), help you get your outside ski tipped up on edge above the fall line (without leaning), all of which involves helping you get your inside ski to fulfill its role properly (instead of lagging behind, inside, weighted, and flat). The overall objective is to get and keep grip on that outside ski with tails following tips. When you get this, you'll feel it.
 
Last edited:

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,687
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
I will trot out the usual suspects: missing sufficient angulation, improper balance/pressure distribution, and insufficient (rotational) counter, along with the usual remedies:
- Picture frame drill (poles vertical in front of you framing the picture of the bottom of the slope);
- Horizontal pole drill (poles in front lined up with horizon, shoulders level with poles);
- Skiing low even at transition (don't rise up to switch the turn direction);
- (long leg) Weighted leg - short leg;
- Sudden flex of outside leg to release and initiate transition;
Plus multitasking (if you're up for it): pull feet back, remember tipping inside ski/foot to little toe edge, close the ankle as you do the above drills.
With enough drill practice and as you get better at multitasking, you will soon just make turns while working on all the above elements addressed by each drill.
Good luck. Never stop learning. At some point you can go back to long-leg short leg, and add back in some more, but at this point the above is all I recommend.

PS I'm not a ski instructor, just a self-confessed carvaholic and former speed freak.
 
Thread Starter
TS
A

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
@az29okg, I applaud your courage in posting your videos and asking for advice. So here goes.

I'm responding to what I see in your three videos, not to the Carv reports. In particular, I'm going to focus on things I see that need work, then ask some questions about your conceptual focus.

--In your first video, it's evident that the outside ski is sliding outward at apex. Tail is not following tip in its groove. Your stance widens as this happens. Conclusion: your inside ski has too much weight on it. And it's not tipped to its little toe edge enough; it's flatter than the outside ski. My guess is that your focus in these turns is mostly on getting that outside ski to build edge and pressure to the fall line. This leaves the inside ski to keep up, which it isn't doing.

1. Am I right about that your focus is on the outside ski?
Yes, my focus is on the outside ski. You are also correct in that I tend to have too much weight on my inside ski. I've also been trying to work on starting the turn by tipping the new inside ski at the beginning of the turn and allowing the new outside ski to follow. This is still a conscious action and I often forget.

--In your second video more is visible. A close following camera reveals much more than one stationary at the bottom of the run. You are lengthening your old inside leg to start your turns, which brings your body upward at transition. This can be called "extend to release." Your focus is probably on that outside ski, maybe in particular on getting early pressure on it. You may also be attempting to get it up on edge early, above the fall line, with this extension. These are admirable goals, but they are not working to help you get the turns you desire. A flex-to-release, as mentioned above, would achieve these goals more readily. As that outside ski tips onto its new edge, you lean your whole body into the turn. The inside shoulder drops with each turn. Your upper body tilts almost match the tilt of your outside leg. Maybe you do this in order to achieve high pressure on that outside ski at the fall line. High pressure at fall line is a consequence of an arc-to-arc carved turn, but there's a better way to achieve this than directly focusing on pressure. Then you pause as that ski gets way out there. Your body movements stop for a bit, maybe because you are waiting for pressure build-up (I'm guessing). The pause is not beneficial. If your pressure is increasing (Carv I"m sure tells you whether it is or not). Added pressure at this point will be because gravity adds to the forces of the turn when the ski is pointed downhill, not because your whole body is pressing hard on the ski. Then you start the next turn by extending that inside leg.

2. Am I right that your focus is on the extension of that new outside leg for early edging, the lean to build pressure on that outside ski, and the pause to add to the pressure?
Yes, you are correct that my focus is on getting early edging (above the fall line). I'm not sure if I'm leaning to build pressure or leaning in to balance against the pressure. Though on reflection (and based on others observations), I think I am leaning in too much/too early, causing more weight on my inside ski. I had to think about the "pause" that you talked about. So, this pause would be after the apex of the turn? If so, I am trying to hold the ski on edge to continue the turn (complete the turn?). Also, with regards to your comment/question about "pause", when combined with your comment about the 3rd video. I believe the pause is me waiting for the pressure to build up before I transition to the next turn.


--In your third video, you extend the old inside leg to start the turn then lean with your whole body (note the dropped inside shoulder). The lean is important to your edging. Your body from shoulders to feet is acting as a whole unit to tilt that outside lower leg, thus boot cuff, thus ski onto its edge. I think your focus is on that outside ski pretty much exclusively, still leaving the inside ski to tag along and maybe keep up. It does not do that. You can see your stance width changing as the outside ski moves outward while the inside ski stays more up under your body. I don't see the pause with these skis. Their shorter radius of the Redster is helping you keep up a steady tempo. I suspect this is part of why you said " I liked this Redster more than my e-Race Pro (skied them back to back on the same run twice). The Redster just felt like it had more grip (I could trust it more...if that makes any sense)."

I think your focus on these turns was much like the previous ones, to get early edging and pressure on that outside ski. The Redster sped up your tempo and so you didn't feel like you needed to pause to build up more pressure on that outside ski. You could trust the ski. I also think you equate building pressure with gaining grip. (It works the other way. Building grip builds pressure.)

3. Am I right that you are building pressure in order to build grip?
I took grip to mean that my skis are not skidding. I sort of see building pressure and build grip the same way, I can only build pressure and grip if my skis are not skidding.

Appreciate your insights/questions.
 
Thread Starter
TS
A

az29okg

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Oct 17, 2021
Posts
75
Location
Ontario
I'd like to see a few more seconds of actual skiing - front, side, and rear views - and less of the other stuff. Those clips are really short.
I didn't have much opportunities for videos this season. Here is another video taken on 2024 Feb 21 at Mont Tremblant (Duncan Haut). Duncan Haut is a black run and there were a lot of scraped bare "icy" patches in the upper part (above the camera person). The "pauses" in the turns were when I skidded going over the icy patches. The lower part was not as steep and had better snow conditions.
 

Sponsor

Top