low-mid-width carving ski with a race plate

[tomahawkins]

What's your take on improved performance with the Ogasaka plates vs other brands?

Personally I don't put much stock in the importance of plates. I think they do little to strengthen a ski, dampen vibrations, or increase edge hold. I don't even think they prevent boot-out all that well. Then again, I'm not on the World Cup so what do I know. But if you need a lift with unconstrained hole positions, these could be perfect:

 

[Paul Lutes]

Personally I don't put much stock in the importance of plates. I think they do little to strengthen a ski, dampen vibrations, or increase edge hold. I don't even think they prevent boot-out all that well. Then again, I'm not on the World Cup so what do I know. But if you need a lift with unconstrained hole positions, these could be perfect:

View attachment 212869

It's mostly just curiosity for me. I actually have the equivalent for my free heel bindings in terms of height, but it's split into two pieces.
Depending on who you talk to, this is good for maintaining center flex, or it's better to have a continuous riser/plate to increase stiffness for a carver. For the moment I'm interested in increasing the stiffness (which I may regret), and those center bottom cut-outs are obviously to avoid increased stiffness, otherwise they are indeed what I would be looking for.

 

[cantunamunch]

It's mostly just curiosity for me. I actually have the equivalent for my free heel bindings in terms of height, but it's split into two pieces.

Have you thought of adding a sheet metal or fiberglass strap? S bend or otherwise?

You can get flex-matched 40-50lb fiberglass bow limbs for cheap....

 

[tomahawkins]

It's mostly just curiosity for me. I actually have the equivalent for my free heel bindings in terms of height, but it's split into two pieces.
Depending on who you talk to, this is good for maintaining center flex, or it's better to have a continuous riser/plate to increase stiffness for a carver. For the moment I'm interested in increasing the stiffness (which I may regret), and those center bottom cut-outs are obviously to avoid increased stiffness, otherwise they are indeed what I would be looking for.

Looks like you want full plate:

A Telemark Fairytale in Ål Norway

The third Telemark World Cup stage was held in Ål (NOR) wth two Classics, a Sprint and a Parallel Sprint races.

www.fis-ski.com

 

[Paul Lutes]

Have you thought of adding a sheet metal or fiberglass strap? S bend or otherwise?

You can get flex-matched 40-50lb fiberglass bow limbs for cheap....

I've made my own full length plates from bar stock HDPE, which is about as challenging as I want to go. F-glass or steel ..... in my next life, perhaps. It may actually be that most fixed heel plates aren't any stiffer than my HDPE plates, especially if they've been hollowed out.

 

[andrzej]

As you proceed with this, some info: I did experiments with near race skis and wider on piste carving skis for use in "non-ideal conditions" - off piste, soft snow, mild bumps, uneven and skied off) repeatedly over a few years and found that I consistently preferred most of such skis, for that use (as well as on piste, surprisingly), with a plate but with an all mountain binding (instead of a race binding or near race binding.)

The wider the ski and the more versatile/playful such ski could become potentially, the more I preferred such a setup.

For instance, with the Head iSpeed World Cup Rebel Race Department 180/18 (Franz Klammer's favorite ski), I found I preferred (for the use you suggest) a race plate combined with an all mountain binding; or instead just an extra tall demo binding, such as the Tyrolia Demo AT binding (the height of a regular all mountain binding plus a plate).

P..S. Of the brands you mentioned, I preferred the Deacons and the Curv.
But the Heads were my favorites; and next the Stockli Lasers.

Thanks for commenting. I tried only ac50, a precursor to deacons. Ok, if not spectacular in short turns, obviously better than my rossi in crud. I would consider it if I dont find anything better (although the low-to-ground bindings seems like the opposite of the race plate philosophy, but it is true it is a wider ski, so the race plate might be not as useful). How do you compare the curve and the laser (I'm thinking about montero ax, 80mm), they seem to be very different skis, with the curve being far more aggressive and leaning towards gs type of turns? It seems that you liked both.

 

[cantunamunch]

I tried only ac50, a precursor to deacons. Ok, if not spectacular in short turns, obviously better than my rossi in crud. I would consider it if I dont find anything better.

The Deacons ski nothing like the AC50. Don't use any of Volkls AC skis to inform your choice on their current lineup. Yes, things have changed that much.

 

[ski otter 2]

Thanks for commenting. I tried only ac50, a precursor to deacons. Ok, if not spectacular in short turns, obviously better than my rossi in crud. I would consider it if I dont find anything better (although the low-to-ground bindings seems like the opposite of the race plate philosophy, but it is true it is a wider ski, so the race plate might be not as useful). How do you compare the curve and the laser (I'm thinking about montero ax, 80mm), they seem to be very different skis, with the curve being far more aggressive and leaning towards gs type of turns? It seems that you liked both.

To me, the AC 50 skied very differently than the Deacons. Not as good by a lot.

Maybe I misunderstand you here: what I said was that I preferred a race plate plus the lower all mountain demo bindings,
or no race plate with the taller demo bindings (since these are already a full 10 mm higher than the the lower versions).

The Curv and the AX are different, especially in different lengths. The length most get with both is around 175 or 176,
and this gives both skis a very quick edge to edge rebound. Not what I preferred, I found. But the AX ~175 has some
all mountain chops, whereas the Curv at that length less so - but doable.

I preferred both at ~180 to 183, but the AX at that length is a bit heavier, charges better (smooth and damp), but
is a bit heavy for bumps; while the Curv at that length is great, about the right rebound, but really only for on piste
and for mild off piste (such as runs that are groomed once a week).

To me, the best of the Deacons are about comparable to the Curv, and I slightly preferred them but liked both - either
longer or shorter than mid seventies width.

I liked the Head eSpeed group very well too, but these have changed since I demoed them,
so dunno about the current ones: seems the eRace Pro is the main alternative here, fewer choices than before.

(Not a real fan of the eTitan, eRally.)

 

[Philpug]

Very few skis skied like the AC50. About a year later, Blizzard came out with the Magnum 8.7. As soon as I got on it, I thought, this is the ski that I wanted the AC50 to be. But yes, the new Deacons ski nothing like the AC50 and then the reverse camber RTM's ...talk about swinging the pendulum from one side to the other.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Asking for a friend ....

Are there any race plates that are solid enough to accept screws that are, shall we say, beyond the pale? Which is to say, non-fixed heel bindings?

Head/Fischer plates used to be. I believe VIST makes some too. Keep an eye on FB Market or @ScotsSkier might have some.

@Paul Lutes

I have Head/Fischer non predrilled plates, also some of the older Nordica metal plates. And if you really want to go for it, some Salomon Deflex plates!!!

(and for predrilled a bunch of different Salomon, Look, Atomic, Marker etc, etc! plates!! )

 

[Paul Lutes]

Metal's beyond my effort maximum. By predrilled, am I correct in understanding that to mean they have ski mounting holes but no binding mounting holes? And are they one continuous piece or separate strapped together? What's Reflex?
Please forgive my ignorance: half a binding, half a brain!

 

[Philpug]

Please forgive my ignorance: half a binding, half a brain!

thats OK, some of us are half fast.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Metal's beyond my effort maximum. By predrilled, am I correct in understanding that to mean they have ski mounting holes but no binding mounting holes? And are they one continuous piece or separate strapped together? What's Reflex?
Please forgive my ignorance: half a binding, half a brain!

yes, prefilled holes to mount on the ski, not drilled for a particular binding. The Head/Fischer plates are 2 piece. the nordica can be one piece or 2 piece depending on whether you put in the bridge X piece. The Deflex plates are Ally with an elastomer dampening element. There is also a Salomon Hangl one piece ally plate

 

[cantunamunch]

Metal's beyond my effort maximum. By predrilled, am I correct in understanding that to mean they have ski mounting holes but no binding mounting holes? And are they one continuous piece or separate strapped together? What's Reflex?
Please forgive my ignorance: half a binding, half a brain!

Pre-drilled = they have binding mounting holes.

Deflex = big solid chonk of rubber with a solid metal top. Don't do this for tele.

The Nordica could work for you with the X piece, since your teleboot heel is floating above the plate.

Yes, I know it's metal but you wanted to stiffen the flex behind your toe, no?

 

[Paul Lutes]

Yeah, metal ups the stiffness but how do you mount the binding? are we talking machine screws? with precision tapping????

"X piece"? Sounds like it's stiffer laterally, but not longitudinally?

 

[cantunamunch]

Yeah, metal ups the stiffness but how do you mount the binding?

The Nordica plates are a dense resin. You mount the binding just like you normally would on a synthetic core ski.

"X piece"? Sounds like it's stiffer laterally, but not longitudinally?

It literally looks like an X if you look at it from the top. It's kinda bent into a gentle S shape looking at it from the side.

 

[andrzej]

To me, the AC 50 skied very differently than the Deacons. Not as good by a lot.

Maybe I misunderstand you here: what I said was that I preferred a race plate plus the lower all mountain demo bindings,
or no race plate with the taller demo bindings (since these are already a full 10 mm higher than the the lower versions).

The Curv and the AX are different, especially in different lengths. The length most get with both is around 175 or 176,
and this gives both skis a very quick edge to edge rebound. Not what I preferred, I found. But the AX ~175 has some
all mountain chops, whereas the Curv at that length less so - but doable.

I preferred both at ~180 to 183, but the AX at that length is a bit heavier, charges better (smooth and damp), but
is a bit heavy for bumps; while the Curv at that length is great, about the right rebound, but really only for on piste
and for mild off piste (such as runs that are groomed once a week).

To me, the best of the Deacons are about comparable to the Curv, and I slightly preferred them but liked both - either
longer or shorter than mid seventies width.

I liked the Head eSpeed group very well too, but these have changed since I demoed them,
so dunno about the current ones: seems the eRace Pro is the main alternative here, fewer choices than before.

(Not a real fan of the eTitan, eRally.)

I understand what you said about plates and bindings; it makes sense. My motivation is edge control in short turns on hardpack/ice. It definitely makes a difference on a real SL ski.

Are you talking about Deacons 84 (best of the Deacons?) or the narrower ones? If you compare them to the Curve, I suppose you mean 76 or 80.

I'm 163 pounds and I prefer shorter, slalom turns most of the time, so 175 is the longest I would consider, preferably less.
Which of the three: Deacons (84 or less), the Curve, and AX is the best slalom ski, do you think?
I will try to demo them, but the Curve/GT is not so easy to find; the other two I should be able to. But a comparison on different days/conditions is always tricky.
Maybe Forza 70D+ too, despite the graphics which I dont love.
Somehow I'm biased against Head, I'm not quite sure why. I think they have a reputation for stability and speed, not so much for agility/turning, but I might be wrong.

 

[arficus]

Spitfire 80?

 

[Zirbl]

Somehow I'm biased against Head, I'm not quite sure why. I think they have a reputation for stability and speed, not so much for agility/turning, but I might be wrong.

If I were to describe the general feel I associate with Head skis (it's not there on every they put out, but enough for me to say it's a brand feel), I'd say they have a buttery flex combined with torsional stability and excellent grip that feels like forward slicing through the arc, as opposed to slow hugging. Pretty close in feeling to a Rossi FIS SL in that respect, but less trampoline-like, and a slicier feeling when the edge engages at the tip. Subjective as anything, I know, but what I'm basically saying is that if you like a Rossi FIS SL, I wouldn't write off Head skis.
Caveat: it's a long time since I was on a wide one.

 

[ski otter 2]

@Zirbl , what a great description!

For me in demoing, consistently my own preferences for shorter turns were for the Deacons over the Curvs.
The Curvs felt heavier and slightly less responsive, just slightly, as a result - while the extra weight feeling,
seemingly for added stability at speed, just felt unnecessary, given that the Deacons, etc. felt just as stable.

I think I liked the Deacons over the Rossi near race skis, but it was close. The Rossis felt more natural, but with less bite.

But also, I've just gotten used to the FIS SLs, so for short turns, except in powder/crud, trees, uniform bumps,
that's where I'm going to go, as I experience those FIS skis as natural, easy, no problem, not demanding.
Just familiar, doing a lot of the work for me. And tops.

Aggressive, neutral feel, and precision driving forward: that's what I feel with the Heads.
With the Rossis, it's more a smooth, progressive flex, on the money: and dialed in.
(And with the Atomics, it's being quicker, more excitement, a hair better at quick change and stivots,
and dialed in more at quickest reactive response.
But I've yet to find an Atomic near race ski or wider frontside ski I've liked much, whereas at times I've liked
the Head near race skis better than their FIS versions - or at least as much.)