Individual Review Long-Term Review: Salomon Shift Binding

[pchewn]

4. Climbing aid too low? Well, personal preference really. It's 10 degrees (flat is 2 degrees) so if you want steeper than that, then consider changing your line. Again this was a deliberate design from Salomon to encourage users to look at angle of attack when skinning. I had no problems changing my line if I needed to.

I don't do AT touring so this is a real question: If you are skiing in a group and going single-file uphill, should you all have the same heel lift angle so the line is comfortable for all in the party? Wouldn't it make sense if the angle of the heel lift could be set (perhaps at the outset of the trip) so all members of the group have the same lift/angle?

Otherwise, I guess whoever is breaking trail will go at the angle of attack best for them and the rest of the skiers just have to follow along (sub-optimally)?

 

[Mattadvproject]

I don't do AT touring so this is a real question: If you are skiing in a group and going single-file uphill, should you all have the same heel lift angle so the line is comfortable for all in the party? Wouldn't it make sense if the angle of the heel lift could be set (perhaps at the outset of the trip) so all members of the group have the same lift/angle?

Otherwise, I guess whoever is breaking trail will go at the angle of attack best for them and the rest of the skiers just have to follow along (sub-optimally)?

Good morning pchewn,
Thanks for the question. There's no hard and fast rule when it comes to using the risers, when touring, so I don't think it's really feasible to have a party of skiers all set them to the same height at the start of a tour. If you are like me, then you are constantly changing which riser you are on (easily done with a quick flick of a ski pole or basket) to adjust to the undulations in terrain, even in a constant uphill. This is predominantly done by feel and reading the terrain ahead and with experience, becomes second nature.

Also not all bindings have the same degree of rise, some bindings might have more angle or even multiple risers (for example, the Marker Kingpin has flat, 7 degrees and 13 degrees of riser, so you can really fine tune your use of the riser). So, if everyone is on different equipment, then again, it's hard to say which riser you will be on. Often changes are made on the fly with constant adjustment needed.

It definitely does make a big difference when you are in an established skin track already, or you have someone in front setting the track. Even a small amount of trail breaking, can take extra energy. When I'm guiding, I'm more often than not, breaking trail and the clients often don't realize how much extra work it is. When I'm in Japan, where we are often skinning through really deep snow, then it's a lot of extra work. I'm setting a track that suits me and generally in deeper snow, that is often going to be pretty mellow. When the snow is firmer, I might be able to go a little steeper and more direct (but only to a certain extent).

I have a friend who's done about 7 trips with me and he has never been out front before to set a track. He's always followed the group and been in the established track. This past season in Japan he asked if he could go up front for a bit to try some track setting so I set him a visual objective to skin to and off he went. He couldn't believe the amount of work it takes to break trail in deep snow. That was a good experience and a real eye opener for him.

So yes, the person out front is going to set the angle of attack and yes, you need to take into account the fitness, ability, skin coverage and riser heights, of the people behind you (as a guide), but (especially in deep snow), most people appreciate the work done by the person out in front, so I don't think too many complain if the angle of attack isn't quite to their liking. They definitely aren't working as hard as the guy out in front.....

Hope that gives you some ideas.

- Matt

 

[ScottB]

Matt,

From the little I know, it seems most AT bindings have a flat, 1st riser, and 2nd riser level. The kingpin numbers you list seem pretty std. I read your post which explains a lot. My question is specifically, if you are skiing in an established track with a shift binding with just one riser of 10 deg, will you really notice if the track was set by someone on a 7 deg, or 13 deg riser? I would think you can notice a 0 or 10 deg. setting, but can you notice a 7 deg versus 10 deg setting? Will a 10 deg riser work fine in a track set by someone with a 13 deg riser? Does a small riser angle difference make a noticable difference when skinning? Or does the grip of the skin and the conditioning of the skier make a much bigger difference?

I cross country ski a lot and climb plenty of hills. My gear does not have any risers and I never felt any issues? Maybe you don't miss what you never experienced? I do notice how hard I have to down weight my skis to keep my grip depending on steepness, and when it gets too steep I change to herring boning up the hill. I guess skinning is slower and probably more sensitive to ski angle.

 

[jmeb]

I'm not Matt -- but IMHO its more of a range.

I'll rarely be on a skin track and say "man, this must've been set by a dude in some super high risers". But I will say "man, this is more straight-the-fuck-up than I think is efficient for me."

It's all a matter of a comfortable range -- a 13-degree riser opens up a few more degrees of comfortable skinning than a 10-degree. With a 10-degree riser an 18-degree slope might be pretty comfy. With a 13, a 21 degree might be. So if you're used to a higher riser climbing in terrain that you know well, it might be aggravating to not have it. Or if you're touring in terrain which setting a shallower skin track actually is inefficient compared to a slightly steeper one (say, more kick turns on less than fun snow. etc.)

Add to all this the additional variables of boot cuff mobility, liner mobility, fitness, binding delta, ski size -- its just one of many variables. But it is pretty obvious that 2 risers gives you a bit more flexibility to fine tune / optimize your stride in a wider variety of terrain. The closest analog I can think of is: a bike with a 1 by 7 speed drive train with a 300% gear range, vs a 1 by 10 drivetrain with a 400% range.

Guides I've been with have often mentioned an optimum skin track being around 15-17 degrees. I only ski ~15-20 days a year when I'm setting skin tracks, but that sort of correlates with my experience.

 

[Mattadvproject]

Matt,

From the little I know, it seems most AT bindings have a flat, 1st riser, and 2nd riser level. The kingpin numbers you list seem pretty std. I read your post which explains a lot. My question is specifically, if you are skiing in an established track with a shift binding with just one riser of 10 deg, will you really notice if the track was set by someone on a 7 deg, or 13 deg riser? I would think you can notice a 0 or 10 deg. setting, but can you notice a 7 deg versus 10 deg setting? Will a 10 deg riser work fine in a track set by someone with a 13 deg riser? Does a small riser angle difference make a noticeable difference when skinning? Or does the grip of the skin and the conditioning of the skier make a much bigger difference?

I cross country ski a lot and climb plenty of hills. My gear does not have any risers and I never felt any issues? Maybe you don't miss what you never experienced? I do notice how hard I have to down weight my skis to keep my grip depending on steepness, and when it gets too steep I change to herring boning up the hill. I guess skinning is slower and probably more sensitive to ski angle.

G'day ScottB,
Thanks for the question and comments. I think the short answer for me was that I definitely made do on the Shifts and could still climb any other skin tracks that were being put in by other users. Now, I would add a further caveat that my exposure to any sustained, steeper skin tracks was somewhat limited this season. In India, where the main skin track was up and around the summit and that is pretty non-technical (low rise for most of it with a couple of sections of 10 degree riser). In Japan, it was similar but I did have to put in a few more kick turns but mostly in deeper snow was grip comes easily.

I think the biggest challenge was in Chile where we did do some more sustained, steeper pitches. There was one skin track in particular to get to the Valle Hermoso where several kick turns were needed up a very steep face and I had seen the people who had set that track, skinning out there the day before. The person out front was on Dynafits, so I can only assume he has a little bit more rise than the Shifts, but the steep track was fine and I matched the track with no problems using the 10 degree rise on the Shifts. I didn't measure the angle of the slope unfortunately.

So, I don't think it really affected things for me (remember that on the Shifts, flat is actually 2 degrees). I find that having trim to fit skins (so that the base of the ski is totally covered) gives a massive grip advantage over straight skins (which I used to have) and I'm using pure nylon skins too which give good grip (at the sacrifice of a small amount of glide compared to mohair). Having an effective walk-mode on a boot (and having the power strap and top buckles loose) gave a greater range of motion and seemed to negate the need for that 2nd, mid-level riser. I came from the Kingpins and at the time, appreciated the 2 riser options but now I don't really miss it much.

I definitely try and stay on the flat (2 degree) rise as much as possible when setting a track, I like the ability to be able to produce a longer stride and find that so much more efficient and energy saving, so I try to skin like that for as much as possible. I did notice a big change in my stride when moving to the 10 degree range (my stride is a lot shorter), it felt a lot less efficient and really slowed things down. But sometimes you have to be on that steeper riser and there's no getting away from it. I don't know what slope angles you are climbing up with cross country skis, but I would think that as you go steeper, then you are definitely going to have more grip with touring equipment on (otherwise skimo racers wouldn't need skins right?!).

As always, they are just my thoughts and may not work for everyone else, but hopefully that gives you a few more ideas Scott.

Kind regards,
Matt

 

[Gettes]

Wow thanks for that review Matt. I've read just about everything I could find written on the Shifts and that was perfect. Doesn't hurt that it we're about the same size and seem to have similar demands for AT gear.

Most of the other reviews/comments I read had similar conclusion to you with the heel riser angle. They went in feeling like it would be more of an issue and wound up not really noticing. Look at it this way too Scott B, if you haven't used a pair with different riser angles you'll never know the difference anyway. That's the same reasoning I use when justifying my relatively heavy AT gear.

Have a pair on order, so thanks again for reassuring me I made a good selection.

Chad

 

[Mattadvproject]

Found this nice video from Salomon today featuring the Shift bindings being skied in some ski-pornicious conditions. They definitely do hold up to some abuse.....


- Matt

 

[SBrown]

Bumpity bump: I have skied mine twice now only inbounds, and they feel great so far. Except today I was getting some play in one of the toes, up and down click click. The first time, I popped out of the binding, put it back on and it was solid. The second time it happened (a few runs later), it was still loose after clicking in a few times. I'm going to mess around with it a little more in a few minutes, but has anyone experienced this?

 

[Philpug]

Bumpity bump: I have skied mine twice now only inbounds, and they feel great so far. Except today I was getting some play in one of the toes, up and down click click. The first time, I popped out of the binding, put it back on and it was solid. The second time it happened (a few runs later), it was still loose after clicking in a few times. I'm going to mess around with it a little more in a few minutes, but has anyone experienced this?

Is the toe height set correctly?

 

[SBrown]

Is the toe height set correctly?

Well I don't know. Like I said, I haven't looked yet (waiting for them to dry off), but they didn't do this at all until the 4th or 5th hour of skiing. But that's the first thing I'll check. How is it adjusted on these, do you know off top of your head?

 

[TSQURD]

Well I don't know. Like I said, I haven't looked yet (waiting for them to dry off), but they didn't do this at all until the 4th or 5th hour of skiing. But that's the first thing I'll check. How is it adjusted on these, do you know off top of your head?

One of the reviewers on Blister mentioned he experienced the AFD getting some play after a few runs when ever he adjusted the bindings from AT to DIN requiring the AFD to be raised.

Here is a pic on the instruction sheet on setting the AFD hight:

IMG_1142

• TSQURD
• Jan 18, 2019

 

[ScottB]

Turn a recessed screw on the side of the afd to raise and lower. Should be almost touching the boot

 

[firebanex]

The AFD has some sort of stepped ramp in it, so the unofficial way to adjust it according to Cody Townsend on TGR is to adjust it all the way up tight, back it down till it clicks down once, and then raise it back up to the proper almost touching position. I slam my palm on the toes of my boots a few times when adjusting the AFD on the bench just to make sure it doesn't drop down. I have not experienced any random dropping of the AFD as of yet.

I'm up to two pairs of Shift bindings, put maybe 12 days on one pair split about 4 days downhill resort skiing and the other 8 in touring/snowshoeing types of adventures. I'm still very impressed with them and have not experienced any malfunctions or real problems with the bindings. The second pair is mounted to a set of Blizzard Rustler 9's and will be getting their maiden run this weekend as primarily a resort ski as I don't have skins for the Rustlers yet..

 

[SBrown]

Well ... it wasn't the toe height adjustment -- I don't think, still not quite finished. I think the heel piece just wasn't in the right place. I moved it forward a few turns, still messing with the toe height. But I'm here to say I'm glad I am messing with it because they set my DIN at 9.5*. I thought they were hard to step into, and was going to check that anyway. (Someone else picked them up at the shop for me, and that was around Christmas, I never got around to looking at stuff, blah blah.) Anyway, this stupid mount cost me $70. Not terribly pleased. The shop did swap out my brake size for free, so that was nice.

(*I chart at a 7, as a Type 3 and lying about my age.)

 

[SBrown]

Cons
- DIN maxes out at 13, so someone skiing higher than that and jumping off stuff, might need something higher (maybe Salomon will bring out a higher DIN version later? Not sure if they need it though).

So, I'm over reading the thread on TGR (59 pages! crap), and Cody Townsend addresses this on the first page, just fyi:

Yeah, we were pushing for up to a 16 but there were design limitations that made it impossible for the 16 spring to be put in according to the developers. At the same time, I've been skiing more and more on the Warden 13 because it has a sliding AFD plate and is compatible with the MTN Lab boot which is the boot I ski noo 100% of the time and my experience with a 13 DIN binding has been nothing but positive. I also had the lead engineer for this project dispel the myth that bindings work better in the mid-range of their DIN better than at the edges. So for the SHIFT, I've been at 13 and have gained nothing but confidence on them.

 

[Mattadvproject]

So, I'm over reading the thread on TGR (59 pages! crap), and Cody Townsend addresses this on the first page, just fyi:

Yeah, we were pushing for up to a 16 but there were design limitations that made it impossible for the 16 spring to be put in according to the developers. At the same time, I've been skiing more and more on the Warden 13 because it has a sliding AFD plate and is compatible with the MTN Lab boot which is the boot I ski noo 100% of the time and my experience with a 13 DIN binding has been nothing but positive. I also had the lead engineer for this project dispel the myth that bindings work better in the mid-range of their DIN better than at the edges. So for the SHIFT, I've been at 13 and have gained nothing but confidence on them.

Not been on the TGR forum but did just read the first few pages. Nice of Cody Townsend to chime in with a lot of background beta..... it's a pretty good read, but I didn't make it through all 59 pages..... back to your previous post Susan, sounds like you have an issue then with correct forward pressure? Is that what you are talking about? That would certainly cause pre-release but surprised it didn't happen till later on? Or were you only getting rowdy until 4 or 5 hours of skiing?

- Matt

 

[SBrown]

Not been on the TGR forum but did just read the first few pages. Nice of Cody Townsend to chime in with a lot of background beta..... it's a pretty good read, but I didn't make it through all 59 pages..... back to your previous post Susan, sounds like you have an issue then with correct forward pressure? Is that what you are talking about? That would certainly cause pre-release but surprised it didn't happen till later on? Or were you only getting rowdy until 4 or 5 hours of skiing?

- Matt

I never got a prerelease, I just started noticing movement in the toe. I quit for the day soon after that. Yes it ended up being forward pressure, still not sure why I skied a full day last week like that and then a couple more hours before noticing anything, because it was pretty obvious when it was happening. Anyway, all should be fine now ... I think forward pressure is correct? It's supposed to be flush with the housing?

 

[Brock Tice]

Just finished mounting my Shift bindings and playing around with them on my work bench.. couple things to note about that process and observations:
-If you are using the paper template that is currently on the TGR template thread, there will be like 2-3mm of the tension adjustment screw on the heel plate left exposed.. so don't plan on letting friends with bigger boots use them. (Yes I checked the printer scaling and it was perfect)

Did you just use the Salomon alpine template? Would you advise adjusting the heel piece position?

 

[firebanex]

@Brock Tice there is an updated template in the binding mounting thread that places the heel piece in exactly the correct spot. So my earlier post isn't exactly relevant anymore. Post 1251 on page 51 of the TGR Binding Mount Paper Template thread sticked at the top of tech talk has the template that I used most recently and it's spot on.

I still haven't fixed the mount on the first pair of skis.. I really should since I'm afraid I might max out the travel in the back and break something with so little adjustment left.

 

[Brock Tice]

@Brock Tice there is an updated template in the binding mounting thread that places the heel piece in exactly the correct spot. So my earlier post isn't exactly relevant anymore. Post 1251 on page 51 of the TGR Binding Mount Paper Template thread sticked at the top of tech talk has the template that I used most recently and it's spot on.

I still haven't fixed the mount on the first pair of skis.. I really should since I'm afraid I might max out the travel in the back and break something with so little adjustment left.

Found it, thanks!