It’s not Stupid

[Jjmd]

When I teach people that are absolutely unwilling to project them themselves downhill enough to get their skis to release and just lean back into the hill, I explain what they are afraid of and why their misplaced survival instinct makes them do this. Then I ask them if they have ever jumped into a swimming pool. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever made the commitment to jump in a swimming pool and leaned back mid jump and tried to grab the edge they just vacated. It’s all about addressing the concerns beforehand and then committing. If I give them the skills to make that one projected turn and then stop, giving up control to get control, more often than not, I can get them to make that one turn where the body leads the skis. By getting them to address and talk about their fears, making them realize that for a brief moment they are going to experience abject terror, but that it will end and they won’t disintegrate into a ball of flames. As nutty as this process sounds, I use it frequently and it works.
I use a form of this when teaching advanced skiers to ski extreme terrain. I tell them there are three parts of a ski turn, ( hold on this gets really technical), the beginning when you decide to start, the middle, and the end, when you can determine if you want to stop or keep going. You can have control of 1 and 3, but you jump in the swimming pool on 2, no reaching back. When people start to understand how commitment works in making ski turns they get better. It’s a little more complicated and nuanced with the advanced group but you get the idea.

 

[razie]

How can the function of a good turn be explained, off ski’s, in order to get buy-in from a new skier or a skier that is having trouble advancing

Good question.

The function of a good turn is control. Control of speed, control of direction, so: control of space-time!

The more controlled, the safer it is and the more options you have and the more you can push it. The more balance, the more control. The more range-of-motion, the more control options. The lower, the more range of motion and the more control. The more snow-contact, the more control. The smoother, the more controlled. The more stacked, the less effortful. The less pushing against gravity, the less effortful etc.

The physics aspects, at the macro level, are related to turning, which is a function of offset and radius. That's the missing link for most skiers: what offset do you get for a given effort and number of turns? Or for a given number of turns per distance? I.e. what sustained radius can you pull at a given speed? They're all the same equation, just moving stuff on the left and right of equals...

The technique is merely an enabler. Given all this, there are efficient and inefficient techniques... demonstrably so.

Where does the fun fit in all this? Where does the fun factor come from? Centripetal force, i.e. quality of engagement, i.e. ski bend factor? The control that allows you to ski your line at your speed?

 

[karlo]

The more controlled, the safer it is and the more options you have and the more you can push it. The more balance, the more control. The more range-of-motion, the more control options. The lower, the more range of motion and the more control. The more snow-contact, the more control. The smoother, the more controlled.

Yes, the challenge is to get someone to buy in on what it takes to have control. And, this list is a good one. For example, options and range of motion, how much would we have standing on the floor if we were leaning in one direction or another? Much less if we are leaning one way or another, caught wrong footed for that passing shot, than if we were solidly over both feet and light on those feet. The skiing equivalent is when we are in transition. Are we right over our feet, which has our body near perpindivular to slope, no matter how steep, or have we leaned uphill while bracing? Demonstrating that we are far more able to use our tools, the skis, if we are over them in transition could help someone buy into that.

what offset do you get for a given effort

What is offset?

 

[razie]

What is offset?

between apexes there's a vertical distance and a lateral distance, the offset is the lateral, or lateral displacement - how much you travel across the slope between turns.

A good test is to setup a given corridor, say 5m wide and see how many turns you can make with that offset - typically marked with brushes or such...

 

[geepers]

its when you move so far into a turn and down the hill you fall down, when done in control in powder there is no risk, I realize most people wont have access to that condition but I always use what I have to teach.

I'm quite mystified how you do this safely.

High siding in MotoGP is when the rider gets pole vaulted over the bike. Yes, it is typically happens when the rider loses rear tire grip and the CoM moves inside. But the high side occurs when the tire suddenly re-grips (generally because the rider closes the throttle) resulting in the pole vault. It's generally painful and has ended careers (e.g. Wayne Rainey who became a paraplegic as a result of a high side.) If the tire doesn't re-grip and the tire continues to slide out until rider and bike meet the road then it's a "low side".

It may be softer landing on pow vs hard road however I had a ski buddy (older guy who resumed skiing after many years) who high sided on a pow day. He was a feet together heel pusher (1970's vintage) and several cm of slightly heavy pow meant sliding was not an option. He over-balanced on the outside (high side) and damaged a knee. No more skiing.

 

[Josh Matta]

You friend did it by jamming his edges, I had her do it by just moving down the hill...

 

[JFB]

I clicked on this because the title suggested it was about skiing telemark. I didn't notice the word "not" until I realized that it wasn't. So carry on - don't mind me.

 

[karlo]

offset is the lateral, or lateral displacement - how much you travel across the slope between turns.

what offset do you get for a given effort and number of turns? Or for a given number of turns per distance? I.e. what sustained radius can you pull at a given speed?

Meaning tighter radius is more difficult the higher the speed?

I clicked on this because the title suggested it was about skiing telemark. I didn't notice the word "not" until I realized that it wasn't. So carry on - don't mind me.

That is SOo funny.

 

[razie]

Meaning tighter radius is more difficult the higher the speed?

well, that's clear, but just a part of it. the more interesting part is the ski-snow engagement and ski bend required to get the higher impulse and deflection across the slope, which is also in a different place/time and direction than if you're just trying to slow down (which is the easy part).

Why I think it's the missing link, it's because it is a comprehensive measure of skiing quality. I.e. after being able to survive with speed control in various conditions, where to next? One can go for style improvements, which is in the eye of the beholder and subject to preference, or efficiency, control and performance improvements, which can easily be measured and explained in terms of offset.

 

[razie]

I'm quite mystified how you do this safely.

High siding in MotoGP is when the rider gets pole vaulted over the bike. Yes, it is typically happens when the rider loses rear tire grip and the CoM moves inside. But the high side occurs when the tire suddenly re-grips (generally because the rider closes the throttle) resulting in the pole vault. It's generally painful and has ended careers (e.g. Wayne Rainey who became a paraplegic as a result of a high side.) If the tire doesn't re-grip and the tire continues to slide out until rider and bike meet the road then it's a "low side".

It may be softer landing on pow vs hard road however I had a ski buddy (older guy who resumed skiing after many years) who high sided on a pow day. He was a feet together heel pusher (1970's vintage) and several cm of slightly heavy pow meant sliding was not an option. He over-balanced on the outside (high side) and damaged a knee. No more skiing.

There's a small a difference I guess. A high slide only occurs when the body did not move inside too much and the tire regains grip - when it does move inside a lot, the low side can't be avoided.

On skis, at least theoretically, you can find grip even when the body is inside a lot, say hip to snow.

 

[karlo]

being able to survive with speed control

Speed control is certainly an objective of a beginner, and even of most advanced skiers.

For turns with the same arc angles, do smaller turns reduce downhill speed more than large turns? I think so, but maybe not.

 

[Chris V.]

That got me thinking. How can the function of a good turn be explained, off ski’s, in order to get buy-in from a new skier or a skier that is having trouble advancing, so that the idea of “throwing ourselves downhill” is no longer “stupid”?

For a new skier, perhaps it's best to keep the discussion totally non-technical.

(1) Show the skier what good linked turns look like. Best observed from the lift--just pick out a good skier. Despite disagreements as to ideal width of stance, best transition method, etc., we all know within a fairly narrow range what good turns look like. Beginners don't.

(2) Note that continuous linked turns involve speeding up, then slowing down, then speeding up again, repeatedly. Beginners have to get past their natural mental resistance to this idea. If that doesn't appeal to you, you might want to take up checkers.

(3) Reasons good turns are better than bad turns:

o They're elegant. You'll look good. They'll feel good--smooth.

o You'll make your friends jealous. You'll impress the girls, or the boys, or your mean big brother, or whomever it is that you'd like to impress.

o You will use less physical exertion than by making bad, defensive turns.

o You'll be safer. You won't be putting inappropriate strains on bones and other vulnerable body parts. You won't fall as much. When (not if) you fall, you'll be in a posture allowing you to roll with the punches, and not wrench joints in directions they aren't designed to move. (Works pretty well if you're not going at bat-out-of-hell World Cup speeds.)

o You'll be able to ski fast or slow, as you choose, and maintain that overall average speed down an entire slope. All subject to the cycle mentioned in #2 above.

o You'll be able to stop when and where you like, without a big exertion or risk of falling.

o You'll get exercise that's healthier for your body than the overworking of just a few muscles that bad skiers rely upon.

o You won't be sore at the end of the day. Unless that's what you want, and you really push yourself.

o You'll be able to ski all day, and get some really good stamina-building aerobic exercise.

o You'll be able to ski any pitch, gentle or steep.

o You'll be able to ski any kind of terrain well and in control, for example narrow spots, glades, or moguls.

o You'll be able to ski any kind of snow well and in control, for example powder, busted up "crud," or "ice." (True ice being uncommon.)

o You'll be able to air it out a little bit without making a hard, out of control landing. (I've never met a kid who didn't like the idea of jumping.)

o You'll be able to enter a NASTAR or club race, if that's what you like, and do pretty well.

o Being able to do all of these things is just plain fun. You'll be able to enjoy beautiful scenery that most skiers never see.

 

[Chris V.]

For turns with the same arc angles, do smaller turns reduce downhill speed more than large turns? I think so, but maybe not.

I think so. A greater amount of kinetic energy will be converted to heat in three ways:

(1) Even if you are able to carve both the larger and the smaller turns perfectly, your muscles do more absorbing of forces in the smaller turns, and in doing so your muscles create heat.

(2) At some point as you tighten the radius, the skis no longer carve perfectly, they brush across the snow to some degree, increasing friction which creates heat.

(3) In the smaller turns, the magnitude of the upward forces against your ski bases is greater. I believe this in itself increases friction, even insofar as the skis are gliding directly lengthwise--again creating more heat.

 

[karlo]

For a new skier, perhaps it's best to keep the discussion totally non-technical.

(1) Show the skier what good linked turns look like. Best observed from the lift--just pick out a good skier. Despite disagreements as to ideal width of stance, best transition method, etc., we all know within a fairly narrow range what good turns look like. Beginners don't.

(2) Note that continuous linked turns involve speeding up, then slowing down, then speeding up again, repeatedly. Beginners have to get past their natural mental resistance to this idea. If that doesn't appeal to you, you might want to take up checkers.

(3) Reasons good turns are better than bad turns:

o They're elegant. You'll look good. They'll feel good--smooth.

o You'll make your friends jealous. You'll impress the girls, or the boys, or your mean big brother, or whomever it is that you'd like to impress.

o You will use less physical exertion than by making bad, defensive turns.

o You'll be safer. You won't be putting inappropriate strains on bones and other vulnerable body parts. You won't fall as much. When (not if) you fall, you'll be in a posture allowing you to roll with the punches, and not wrench joints in directions they aren't designed to move. (Works pretty well if you're not going at bat-out-of-hell World Cup speeds.)

o You'll be able to ski fast or slow, as you choose, and maintain that overall average speed down an entire slope. All subject to the cycle mentioned in #2 above.

o You'll be able to stop when and where you like, without a big exertion or risk of falling.

o You'll get exercise that's healthier for your body than the overworking of just a few muscles that bad skiers rely upon.

o You won't be sore at the end of the day. Unless that's what you want, and you really push yourself.

o You'll be able to ski all day, and get some really good stamina-building aerobic exercise.

o You'll be able to ski any pitch, gentle or steep.

o You'll be able to ski any kind of terrain well and in control, for example narrow spots, glades, or moguls.

o You'll be able to ski any kind of snow well and in control, for example powder, busted up "crud," or "ice." (True ice being uncommon.)

o You'll be able to air it out a little bit without making a hard, out of control landing. (I've never met a kid who didn't like the idea of jumping.)

o You'll be able to enter a NASTAR or club race, if that's what you like, and do pretty well.

o Being able to do all of these things is just plain fun. You'll be able to enjoy beautiful scenery that most skiers never see.

Right. I guess to eliminate the need to explain, technically, why “falling forward” makes sense, just do it on a gentle enough slope that the skier doesn’t feel insecure, doesn’t feel like it’s really falling forward. Once that sense of control, per @razie, is established, move on to incrementally steeper terrain. Having talked this through, I guess I’m back to what is tried and true.

The only thing I’m not 100% on board with is the matter of continuous linked turns involve speeding up and slowing down. I feel my COM downhill-speed is constant when I have smoothly linked turns.

 

[Chris V.]

The only thing I’m not 100% on board with is the matter of continuous linked turns involve speeding up and slowing down. I feel my COM downhill-speed is constant when I have smoothly linked turns.

Honestly, I don't see how this would be physically possible. We're not allowing ourselves to keep accelerating down the hill without limit. With smoothly linked turns, we soon reach and maintain an upper limit to our AVERAGE speed. So something must be happening to convert kinetic energy into another form of energy. Upon releasing in transition, we allow our body to fall down the hill, and at that point there is little to slow us. Our skis are above, not below us. Our skis are light. There's little friction. As we move toward the bottom of the turn, we develop some strong forces that can slow us down, if we let them. I think that's where the slowing has to occur.

There are feelings, then there's reality. Not always identical.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....The only thing I’m not 100% on board with is the matter of continuous linked turns involve speeding up and slowing down. I feel my COM downhill-speed is constant when I have smoothly linked turns.

....Upon releasing in transition, we allow our body to fall down the hill, and at that point there is little to slow us. Our skis are above, not below us. Our skis are light. There's little friction. As we move toward the bottom of the turn, we develop some strong forces that can slow us down, if we let them.....

Skis and CoM travel along different paths. Skis go farther left-right, and speed up and slow down when doing that. The slowing down of the skis happens when they travel across the hill in the bottom half of the turn.

We can allow our CoM to continue to travel across those skis as they slow down. Then the line the CoM takes is shorter and less "offset" than the line the skis follow. The question is whether it maintains its speed or not as it goes across and then down then across the hill.

In turns that are not completed, where the skis barely turn across the hill and do not take the skier very far left and right, I suspect if someone were to track the speed of the CoM it would not slow much, if at all. The question is whether a skier can release the CoM with such timing that it crosses the skis and maintains its speed in hip-to-snow, high-offset turns that are very round and completed.

 

[karlo]

We're not allowing ourselves to keep accelerating down the hill without limit.

I didn’t mean accelerating. I meant COM at constant downhill velocity.

There are feelings, then there's reality. Not always identical.

And achieving reality can be a goal

In turns that are not completed, where the skis barely turn across the hill and do not take the skier very far left and right, I suspect if someone were to track the speed of the CoM it would not slow much, if at all.

For COM to not go side to side, turns have to be in leg’s-length. For longer turns, more and more angulation is needed to achieve that.

Skis and CoM travel along different paths. Skis go farther left-right, and speed up and slow down when doing that. The slowing down of the skis happens when they travel across the hill in the bottom half of the turn.

Exactly. When I can achieve that, the feeling of constant COM velocity, even if it’s only a feeling, I find it amazing.

 

[Rod9301]

The thing is you missed the mark in the first sentence one. a functional good turn explained off skis is absolutely useless. Thinking about it will NEVER get you there and thinking learning types need to accept that doing and feeling what they do is the only way to improvement.

Its also never a throw yourself down the hill. Its moving to wear your skis are going to be before they get there. An easy explanation to someone who understand a ball sport, is you pass the ball a head of the player and the player has to catch up to it but realistically I feel this does little for most people.

My own wife struggled with honestly still struggles with moving down the hill, explanation by me and several L3+ including examiners and national team candidates got nowhere for years. I literally sat there and said she did it wrong for 100s of ski days, because telling someone they are doing a movement when they are not doing it does no one any good. it wasnt until I convinced her to try high siding on purpose in 3 feet of powder did she learn it. When she finally found that point she did describe it as nearly falling down.

Technically speaking your COM needs to move inside of your BOS early in the turn or every turn you ever do will be a crap. We can argue for days about the movements that get you there but for me, and how I perceive it is that my new inside legs tips/flexes and lightens to let my COM move into the new turn with out being blocked. Many people "block" because of the security they feel, that security is false though and leading to many more issues including speed gain. Their are several prominent posters on here who are "blockers" I wont name them but you probably know who you are.

also more people need more time doing these moves. If you time on snow is limited and you have single track trails to learn to MTB on, you can repeat this moves anytime you ride single track. The correct COM over BOS and projecting down the hill is the same on a MTB with a lowerered seat. While everyone talks about skiing and tries to conceptilize the movements its a ton better top just go out and practice the movements, 100s, 1000s, maybe millions of times.

Actually, in mtb you move the com (butt) to the outside of the turn, to lean the bike.

In skiing, your com is on the inside of the turn and your upper body to the outside.

 

[Josh Matta]

ummm no your COM moves inside you BOS on both.....

freeze a picture and prove me wrong.

 

[karlo]

Actually, in mtb you move the com (butt) to the outside of the turn, to lean the bike.

In skiing, your com is on the inside of the turn and your upper body to the outside.

But, my COM is where my core is, not my butt. Can’t speak for everyone though.