I still haven't experienced a magical bootfitting

[Analisa]

I just got my first pair of inbound boots after 3 years of monogamy with my Dynafit Mercuries - a pair of Tecnica Mach1 LV Pros. Hot damn! I feel like I bought being a better skier! They're snug in all the right places yet insanely comfortable (especially after adding some ankle padding to one side). I posted in the spring about struggling with a new pair of Atris Birdies and feeling easily knocked in the backseat, and after skiing them for a little longer, realized I needed more ramp and a little less forward lean to keep me out of my heels & flexing into the boot properly, especially matched with a binding with a pretty minimal delta. These new glass slippers keep me in the sweet spot on the ski super effortlessly. And the lateral stiffness compared to stiff tongues in my Dynas - I finally get how people have fun skiing groomers! I'm obsessed.

But somehow I've found boots before I've found a bootfitter. There are a lot of kinda condescending responses about how "the internet can't fit your boots," but I'm still waiting for that life-changing experience that people rave about. It took 12 boots across 4 shops to get a fitter to size me down twice, and then it was only because other sizes were sold out. I'd try on every LV boot and they'd all have a lot of extra volume, but multiple fitters just said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. When I did get sized down twice in the Cochise (thanks to other sizes being out), the fit was great, but it was soft/flat. I wanted to try the Mach1s and the store could order the 105s for me but the 115s weren't available, and the fitter said I "might be able to get away" with with 105, which to me, didn't translate to "this is the boot for you." I went to 2 other shops to talk to 2 new fitters about flex, and also got weird feedback that struck me as unreliable, like I need a 115 if I'm the kind of skier that sizes down twice or the type of skier who cares about the ramp angle between the two boots. I ended up calling Tecnica and got some helpful information in terms of the ramp & lean (which didn't match up to data published on the net) and how progressive vs. linear the flex was and pulled the trigger on the 115, mainly because it was in stock at Evo and would be easy to try on with a fitter and return if it didn't work. They verified that I wasn't making a terrible choice & baked my liners. Picked out ankle padding after and I'm considering J bars for a little more security because I have the dinkiest little ankles of all time.

So I have a few questions for all the people who have been able to figure this out:

1. Am I missing the magic my foot is really low volume and the answer is just "find the lowest volume thing on the shelf and shove a little bit more shit in it?"

2. Is the initial boot selection harder for women because there are less boots on the wall, especially in stiffer flexes?

3. Do you have to ask for something special? Like announce to the fitter that you're not just there to try on boots, but that you want the works, like epiphany bootfitting experience that you'll tell your grandkids about? I went to 6 fitters across 4 stores and felt like I was driving the appointment & wasn't getting much help. And they were the recommended stores and sometimes their "guy" who was some sort of foot savant, so it's probably not them, it's me.

4. How did you find your fitter? Is it like getting a hair cut where you get a few recommendations and pray it works out? Or does it work more like realtors where you can chat first and get a few opinions before punching & grinding away?

5. What are signs you're at a bad bootfitter? There's a guy in Seattle who works independently of a shop who gets rave reviews, but also some that say "he'll try something and if it doesn't work for you, it's your fault and he can't help you further." Is poor bedside manner like that important or not? I feel like communication is important.

6. On that note, I've noticed that the business models really run a spectrum. Evo carries almost every boot on the market but it's a game of bootfitter roulette where sometimes you get matched with a boot whisperer like Greg Louie who runs their boot department and sometimes you get matched with a guy who can't answer your questions about adjusting the ramp angle on a boot if it doesn't agree with you. Some shops have a smaller selection but don't seem as swamped from a customer wait-list perspective and at an average-level, the fitters seem more trained. There are also a few independent guys who work out of their garage who give you a few ideas on boots to try but don't do anything else on the selection process. One really likes Lange, and it seems weird to me that they'd push a brand and hack at it when your glass slipper might be on the shelf right next to it. Do you always get your boots fit where you bought them, and if so, do you use the fitter where you bought your boot or do you have a fitter that you're loyal to and select from what they carry or can order for you? Or do you mix & match? Do you ever feel like fitters push the boots that they're able to source for you, like I felt with the 105s I could "get away with"?

7. Does your fitter "check" everything or do you drive the work that's being done to your boot? I ask because I have really severe scoliosis where none of my major joints line up - my shoulders aren't over my hips aren't over my knees and the joint on the left side of my body is higher or lower than the left - and there's some degree of axial rotation of the spine. I haven't brought it up with a fitter because 1) after years of competitive & college sports, I've learned my biomechanics are a total cluster and not to go down the rabbit hole unless something hurts and 2) I haven't found a fitter I really trust. But it just strikes me as weird no fitter has ever been like "whoa, weird legs, let's fix that." Or is it like my experience with forward lean, where you have to identify that something is off and be able to speak to it in the right words so that the bootfitter knows what you need? And if that's the case, how do inexperienced skiers (or inexperienced boot shoppers) really benefit from bootfitting?

8. Would it be strange to take a Masterfit class as a customer to feel more equipped and confident about my role in the fitting process?

9. Less related to fitting, but is skiing in a more athletic stance supposed to make you really sore? I can tell it's not a backseat-compensation thing since I can tell I'm more forward and doing a lot less heel pushing, and it's more my adductor muscles than my quads. Would taking a bolt out to soften it up help, or is it just coming from the stance?


And two pointers I learned:

1. Be really confident about what feels right & what doesn't. I've owned a pair of 2-size-down Lange RX LVs from Craigslist that I just used to demo with alpine bindings and while it wasn't the right fit, the length was one of the only things it had going for it. I got a lot of resistance because I was "already sized down," but I wasn't feeling the front of the boot. Even in my ones that I got, I don't really feel a ton of pressure in the front of the boot. I also think it's amusing that apparently all of my ballet flats and boots and heels are a "performance fit" based on how my foot measures.

2. Give your friend with small feet a hug. I measure a little over an 8 and I'm comfortably in a 23.5, so there are probably tons of women with very normal sized feet who aren't getting served by the women's options.

3. "Go early in the season" needs some qualifiers. On nights and weekends between November and Christmas, shops are slammed, fitters seemed to be so overloaded that they only half listened to me, and I was more likely to get a fitter that seemed to be pulled from the reserves (like homeboy who didn't know jack about ramp angles. I waited over two hours to talk to him!). In the future, I'll be taking a half day off work or trying to go the appointment route, especially if I can make one with a specific fitter.

Thank you for reading my novel. The internet may not be able to fit my boots but hopefully they can make me fit in on the fitter's bench a little better.

 

[Tricia]

1. Am I missing the magic my foot is really low volume and the answer is just "find the lowest volume thing on the shelf and shove a little bit more shit in it?"

Depending on how low volume your foot is, it may be necessary to buy a low volume boot that fits you as snug as possible, then get a custom liner, like a zip fit.

2. Is the initial boot selection harder for women because there are less boots on the wall, especially in stiffer flexes?

That depends on the fitter and the buyer of the shop. In general, there are less options for women on the wall because of the balance of how much men spend on ski gear in relation to women.

3. Do you have to ask for something special? Like announce to the fitter that you're not just there to try on boots, but that you want the works, like epiphany bootfitting experience that you'll tell your grandkids about? I went to 6 fitters across 4 stores and felt like I was driving the appointment & wasn't getting much help. And they were the recommended stores and sometimes their "guy" who was some sort of foot savant, so it's probably not them, it's me.

You need to communicate exactly what you want, how you ski and make your tolerance for a snug fit clear to the fitter.

4. How did you find your fitter? Is it like getting a hair cut where you get a few recommendations and pray it works out? Or does it work more like realtors where you can chat first and get a few opinions before punching & grinding away?

Ask for recommendations and shop around until you're comfortable with your fitter. It can be a very personal relationship. I married my fitter @Philpug

5. What are signs you're at a bad bootfitter? There's a guy in Seattle who works independently of a shop who gets rave reviews, but also some that say "he'll try something and if it doesn't work for you, it's your fault and he can't help you further." Is poor bedside manner like that important or not? I feel like communication is important.

There are a few things that nearly every good fitter does, like; having you take your shoes and socks off(if he/she doesn't ask you to take your socks off, walk out) check your ankle range of motion, instep height, arch flexibility, (and more). Also, the fitter should ask you some key questions to get a sense of the kind of boot he/she should put you in. - How many days a year do you ski? What kind of terrain do you like to ski?
Both you and your fitter should communicate clearly.

6. On that note, I've noticed that the business models really run a spectrum. Evo carries almost every boot on the market but it's a game of bootfitter roulette where sometimes you get matched with a boot whisperer like Greg Louie who runs their boot department and sometimes you get matched with a guy who can't answer your questions about adjusting the ramp angle on a boot if it doesn't agree with you. Some shops have a smaller selection but don't seem as swamped from a customer wait-list perspective and at an average-level, the fitters seem more trained. There are also a few independent guys who work out of their garage who give you a few ideas on boots to try but don't do anything else on the selection process. One really likes Lange, and it seems weird to me that they'd push a brand and hack at it when your glass slipper might be on the shelf right next to it. Do you always get your boots fit where you bought them, and if so, do you use the fitter where you bought your boot or do you have a fitter that you're loyal to and select from what they carry or can order for you? Or do you mix & match? Do you ever feel like fitters push the boots that they're able to source for you, like I felt with the 105s I could "get away with"?

Most people I know, buy the boots where they get them fitted, however, there are some exceptions.
If your fitter isn't suiting your needs, you may seek another source to do the work.

7. Does your fitter "check" everything or do you drive the work that's being done to your boot? I ask because I have really severe scoliosis where none of my major joints line up - my shoulders aren't over my hips aren't over my knees and the joint on the left side of my body is higher or lower than the left - and there's some degree of axial rotation of the spine. I haven't brought it up with a fitter because 1) after years of competitive & college sports, I've learned my biomechanics are a total cluster and not to go down the rabbit hole unless something hurts and 2) I haven't found a fitter I really trust. But it just strikes me as weird no fitter has ever been like "whoa, weird legs, let's fix that." Or is it like my experience with forward lean, where you have to identify that something is off and be able to speak to it in the right words so that the bootfitter knows what you need? And if that's the case, how do inexperienced skiers (or inexperienced boot shoppers) really benefit from bootfitting?

As a fitter, I check everything.

• Foot length
• Arch length
• Arch flexibility
• Instep measurement
• width
• Ankle ROM
• Visually observe bones, veins, scars, on the feet and ankles
• Look for alignment issues

8. Would it be strange to take a Masterfit class as a customer to feel more equipped and confident about my role in the fitting process?

Absolutely take a Masterfit course. That is why we advertised it and sent a few Pugski members to courses this year.
You will be thrilled with the knowledge you gain.
@Andy Mink @jmeb

9. Less related to fitting, but is skiing in a more athletic stance supposed to make you really sore? I can tell it's not a backseat-compensation thing since I can tell I'm more forward and doing a lot less heel pushing, and it's more my adductor muscles than my quads. Would taking a bolt out to soften it up help, or is it just coming from the stance?

It could be that your muscles need to be retrained, or it could be that your alignment needs to be checked.


Keep in mind that some people sell boots and some people fit boots.

 

[jmeb]

8. Would it be strange to take a Masterfit class as a customer to feel more equipped and confident about my role in the fitting process?

I can say, from experience -- maybe strange in the sense you'll be outnumbered by shop-folks. But not at all strange in the sense of an odd or bad thing to do. I have a longer post to come out about it (thinking timed best when they are available in the near future).

The tl;dr is: For those are avid skiers, it's costs of 1 or 2 days of your time and a bit of cash will be paid back many times over in your ski life -- both fiscally and the quality of your ski experience.

 

[jmeb]

Addendum: also turns out it's also really nice if you happen to live in a region that sends its folks to Masterfit. You know what shops go the extra mile. And you know many fitters on a friendly level which can have its benefits. So being one of the few customers in a retail-heavy classroom is quite nice.

 

[Andy Mink]

+2 on Masterfit. I don't work at a shop and but I had the opportunity to attend to learn more about the ins and outside of fitting boots. Since you bring your own boots with you, you have the opportunity to really hone in on them with some of the best fitters in the country. The tips and tricks you learn will be invaluable to making your boot and foot (and legs, hips, back) happy. As @jmeb said, if you're really into skiing and especially the techy part, totally worth it.

 

[Tricia]

Another point that can be made about the "magical bootfitting" experience is the experience that has little to do with the actual fitting and has to do with the environment. How comfortable is the general atmosphere of the shop for you?
Don't get me wrong, you want a really good fitter, but you need to be comfortable with the surroundings.

 

[Andy Mink]

. Less related to fitting, but is skiing in a more athletic stance supposed to make you really sore? I can tell it's not a backseat-compensation thing since I can tell I'm more forward and doing a lot less heel pushing, and it's more my adductor muscles than my quads. Would taking a bolt out to soften it up help, or is it just coming from the stance?

I get sore there too, along with my quads.

The biggest part is I'm out of shape but that is exacerbated by the forward lean of the boot; I'm using my muscles instead of my frame to hold myself up. My boots have a pretty aggressive forward lean that we made a little more upright by gas pedaling my toes. Negative delta bindings also help.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

If you've been sized down twice into LV boots and they still are too roomy, maybe you should be looking at a race plug. They make them in softer flexes. Fischer makes the Podium in a 110 and they stock it in sizes as small as 22.5. You can certainly get something like that from Lange too.

 

[François Pugh]

1. Am I missing the magic my foot is really low volume and the answer is just "find the lowest volume thing on the shelf and shove a little bit more shit in it?"
I wouldn't stop at the shelf; I would search the world over until the boot was too small in spots and tight at the heel and get the boot stretched/ground/punched. Then I would get double stacked custom foamed liners.

2. Is the initial boot selection harder for women because there are less boots on the wall, especially in stiffer flexes? Your looking at the same walls as I am; I looked at women's boots too. Maybe there are fewer boots made to the typical women's foot last.

3. Do you have to ask for something special? Like announce to the fitter that you're not just there to try on boots, but that you want the works, like epiphany boot fitting experience that you'll tell your grand kids about? I went to 6 fitters across 4 stores and felt like I was driving the appointment & wasn't getting much help. And they were the recommended stores and sometimes their "guy" who was some sort of foot savant, so it's probably not them, it's m
Yes. Also don't just go to the recommended store; go to the recommended guy in the store.

4. How did you find your fitter? Is it like getting a hair cut where you get a few recommendations and pray it works out? Or does it work more like realtors where you can chat first and get a few opinions before punching & grinding away?
You could just go to the guy who made the FIS DH winning boots for your national team members and get him to build you the same thing (if that's what you want); I did that back in the day, but found the fitter by chance. Yes, I got fortunate.
Now that I've used up all my luck I spend as much time getting recommendations from race coaches, racers, newspaper articles, and every skier I meet. Please not that a recommendation from a random skier who has easy to fit feet needs to be taken with a grain of salt; it could be for a great fitter, or maybe not.

5. What are signs you're at a bad bootfitter? There's a guy in Seattle who works independently of a shop who gets rave reviews, but also some that say "he'll try something and if it doesn't work for you, it's your fault and he can't help you further." Is poor bedside manner like that important or not? I feel like communication is important.
Know more about boot fitting and catch the fitter making mistakes, e.g. putting you in a boot that's too big or inappropriate for your clearly expressed requirements. If the boot fitter doesn't shell fit you, it could be he is the perfect boot fitter who can tell exactly what shell your foot needs just by looking at it, but it's more likely he hasn't got a clue.

6. On that note, I've noticed that the business models really run a spectrum. Evo carries almost every boot on the market but it's a game of bootfitter roulette where sometimes you get matched with a boot whisperer like Greg Louie who runs their boot department and sometimes you get matched with a guy who can't answer your questions about adjusting the ramp angle on a boot if it doesn't agree with you. Some shops have a smaller selection but don't seem as swamped from a customer wait-list perspective and at an average-level, the fitters seem more trained. There are also a few independent guys who work out of their garage who give you a few ideas on boots to try but don't do anything else on the selection process. One really likes Lange, and it seems weird to me that they'd push a brand and hack at it when your glass slipper might be on the shelf right next to it. Do you always get your boots fit where you bought them, and if so, do you use the fitter where you bought your boot or do you have a fitter that you're loyal to and select from what they carry or can order for you? Or do you mix & match? Do you ever feel like fitters push the boots that they're able to source for you, like I felt with the 105s I could "get away with"?
An independent guy will have trouble getting your money back for a boot that's been worked on and still doesn't fit, but a store can back up that fit guarantee. That being said, having to drive an hour each way and waste your time in the shop every month forever because the boot will never fit is not a good thing.

7. Does your fitter "check" everything or do you drive the work that's being done to your boot? I ask because I have really severe scoliosis where none of my major joints line up - my shoulders aren't over my hips aren't over my knees and the joint on the left side of my body is higher or lower than the left - and there's some degree of axial rotation of the spine. I haven't brought it up with a fitter because 1) after years of competitive & college sports, I've learned my biomechanics are a total cluster and not to go down the rabbit hole unless something hurts and 2) I haven't found a fitter I really trust. But it just strikes me as weird no fitter has ever been like "whoa, weird legs, let's fix that." Or is it like my experience with forward lean, where you have to identify that something is off and be able to speak to it in the right words so that the bootfitter knows what you need? And if that's the case, how do inexperienced skiers (or inexperienced boot shoppers) really benefit from bootfitting?

The good ones do, even alignment in the shop (using plumb bobs, etc), but you may have to ask for it. On-snow alignment however is not the norm.

8. Would it be strange to take a Masterfit class as a customer to feel more equipped and confident about my role in the fitting process?
Yes. It won't make you a Master boot fitter. Only several courses and many many many fittings will, but it will definitely help.

9. Less related to fitting, but is skiing in a more athletic stance supposed to make you really sore? I can tell it's not a backseat-compensation thing since I can tell I'm more forward and doing a lot less heel pushing, and it's more my adductor muscles than my quads. Would taking a bolt out to soften it up help, or is it just coming from the stance?
I'm fine with an athletic stance. I find when I get tired, I just open my hips, straighten my knees and let my stiff boots with a lot of forward lean hold me up.

10. I've noticed that women, especially women who are not on a race team and are less assertive don't get the same treatment in a ski shop. There seems to be the attitude that "she'll be find with the standard settings", instead of making the minute adjustments to canting, forward lean, ramp angle, etc. to make the boot perfect.

 

[jmeb]

Taking these one at a time...

2. Is the initial boot selection harder for women because there are less boots on the wall, especially in stiffer flexes?

Don't like speaking for women, but I would certainly guess that is the case. Masterfit offered an informative breakout session specifically on women's bootfitting. One of the topics Sam (noticeably the only female instructor, in a mostly male crowd) covered was the way boot lasts are produced based on the 26.5 reference shape, then scaled to size. While that shape can scale well within a size or two, at the extremities like 23.5 or even the rare 22.5, it doesn't scale perfectly in all areas of the foot.

I would think this could make fitting harder. But again, I'm just a male customer with feet that measure 28 so my experience is very limited.

 

[AmyPJ]

Ahhh I feel for you, although I have an inside track to a fabulous fitter/pedorthist who even watches video of me skiing from the front, back, etc, and factors that into everything. But I'm one of those "rare" 22.5 to small 23.5 women with TINY feet (they're like skin and bones, L shaped, no padding, and thankfully, no real anomalies, either.)

Ironically, I'm in a Mach 1 LV also. And I also have custom Boot Doc liners which have been magical for me. I always feel validated when I encounter another person who is highly sensitive to forward lean and ramp and all that stuff.

Now, my advice is to get yourself some Booster Straps if you don't already have some

 

[bbinder]

I have found that some shops either don’t want to do the work or have decided that their business model does not support it. I had one shop (a well regarded one) tell me that I was looking for a “very aggressive fit” and that was not the type of customer they served. At another shop, I asked to try a smaller boot size to see how it compared to the next larger size - I was told that they did not carry any men’s boots smaller than the one I was in because “that wasn’t their customer.”

Maybe both shops were just trying to get rid of me, and I suppose that I should be grateful for their honesty. But needless to say, I am shopping elsewhere.

 

[Tricia]

@Analisa also, keep in mind that narrow and low volume are two different descriptions.

 

[flbufl]

Maybe you should find a shop does a lot of fitting for race teams. We have one here. Some complaints I’ve heard is that “he (the fitter) want to fit everyone as a racer”

I have found that some shops either don’t want to do the work or have decided that their business model does not support it. I had one shop (a well regarded one) tell me that I was looking for a “very aggressive fit” and that was not the type of customer they served. At another shop, I asked to try a smaller boot size to see how it compared to the next larger size - I was told that they did not carry any men’s boots smaller than the one I was in because “that wasn’t their customer.”

Maybe both shops were just trying to get rid of me, and I suppose that I should be grateful for their honesty. But needless to say, I am shopping elsewhere.

 

[bbinder]

Maybe you should find a shop does a lot of fitting for race teams. We have one here. Some complaints I’ve heard is that “he (the fitter) want to fit everyone as a racer”

Ah yes - and to find the magical spot between performance and comfort!

 

[James]

boots," but I'm still waiting for that life-changing experience that people rave about. It took 12 boots across 4 shops to get a fitter to size me down twice, and then it was only because other sizes were sold out.

Well it might happen one of these days.
Your likely problem areas:
Did you burn the proper incense for your part of the country before seeing the fitter? Maybe it's sage, maybe it's locoweed, maybe...maybe you should get the fitter baked.

Did you spend time in meditation on the fitting?

Consult an astrologer on the best day to go? Or, if not day, time of day?

Possibly we should know basic astrology on the fitters before to see if we're compatible. Hmmm, I see my mistake all these years.
Maybe you're a Pisces? I read once that feet are an issue.

Did you great the fitter with the proper secret handshake or code word? I've never gotten it right.

But, the likely scenario is it will only happen after lots of struggle by you. In the mean time you've got to come up with something that works.

Not sure if it has anything to do with being female. In general it's equal opportunity. I did once have the opposite experience in nyc. You had to make an appointment, it was a very small place in a sort of office building in midtown. Sort of because there was a boxing ring right next to the fitting room. We're doing the work, when the next appointment walks in early. She was a model. I knew right then we were done. Sure enough, all attention had shifted. The assistant couldn't get me out if there fast enough. It was pretty funny.

Unfortunately, the more close fitting a rigid boot, the more likely it is to screw something up with how your body works.
It sounds like you have a foot/leg that just is not a natural fit to a ski boot. A race plug boot might work. Lange makes a zj, zj+ (I think it's pre punched), zb, zc. Definitely stay away from the zc, too stiff, prob the za to zj,+ is the area. I believe the Nordica Dobermann has more forward lean but don't know if they come in as many flexes.

I don't get why you think you want more zeppa angle. (Footboard ramp angle). More is not better. Possibly you're used to touring boots?

Fitters are all over the place. Even the "good ones". One can say if "they don't do x, walk out" but I know ones that don't do x - ever. I've been to ones that write down all the stuff they measure about your foot and the boot. Pretty good idea, but in the end made no difference. Doesn't necessarily get you better results.

If you've been sized down twice into LV boots and they still are too roomy, maybe you should be looking at a race plug. They make them in softer flexes. Fischer makes the Podium in a 110 and they stock it in sizes as small as 22.5. You can certainly get something like that from Lange too.

 

[Andy Mink]

Fitters are all over the place.

I experienced this at Masterfit. I got used as an example fit with my Raptors. Even two methods of measuring my cant didn't agree with each other. One said I needed to go one way, the other said the other. Honestly, I found it all super interesting and didn't think of it as the fitters not knowing what they were talking about but just different ways to skin a cat. In the end, my boots are super close to perfect (I may need a wee bit more room for my big toe on the right foot) and I learned a lot.

 

[cantunamunch]

#2 I don't really see that - a factory boot is a kit to create the end product, it's just that some are closer than others.

#3 Specific skiing goals is good. A bootfitter who narrows it down to 2-3 choices including what you initially asked for and lets you decide is better.

#4 Somewhere on here is a post that gives you a summary of a 6-year pain ordeal that @bolide and I went through finding her boots. The best (read: only edgable AND non-painful) shells for her turned out the ones sold by the guy an hour down the road - but it took Billy Kaplan to sort through the mess of all the other guys' fixes. That's 6 seasons of pain and inability to edge in skis - other than the ones I built massive metal under-binding shims for.

Ah, here it is:

One doesn't really know what any given beginner needs.

Imagine a very athletic beginner (UT swimmer, marathon-distance inline skate racer). Now imagine that she

1) Buys boot at recommended fitter ( Masterfit U certs on wall) - $450
2) Can't finish a turn without pain during first ski week, gets new liner and new footbed done at Canadian shop (does race support) - $150 total: $600 total days skied 4, that's 4 full time lesson days with CSIA L2
3) Pain again, gets wedges and new footbed done at top local shop, by one of two bootfitters peeps rave about - $150 total: $750 total days skied: 9 (6 full days of lessons)
4) Not happening, goes back to original purchase shop, has balancing done with yet more wedges (no charge), is told that boot is at adjustment limit and would require grinding to adjust further- total days skied: 12 (8 days of lessons) total: $750
5) Gets grind and third set of footbeds done at top local shop by one of two bootfitters peeps rave about - $250 total days skied 15 (10 days of lessons) total: $1000 (+untold tears and frustration and insane anxiety over steeps/speed)
6) Next season starts, she can't even set one of her edges (3 day clinic doesn't really do much for her at all) total days skied 18/13 days lessons
7) I mount 4 pairs of test mule skis (Head intermediate carvers) with canted shims from 1degree to 4degrees - cost $800 plus $40 shims - has one day with Uncle Louie and OMG THIS IS WHAT I WAS MISSING! (Total cost so far $1840 not counting wasted lessons) total days skied 22/15 days lessons
8) Second western trip has upper thigh issues and weak edge set, can't sidestep uphill - visits @bud heishman 's shop, one set of heel lift wedges removed, no charge.
(If you're counting that's $1840 for less than 30 days and she still can't use any ski other than the canted test mule ones)
9) Visits cantman's shop. Remember that grind from step 5? Done completely wrong. Backfill with epoxy paste, new sole plates, regrind toe lugs, new footbeds, cuff angles reset, liner remould. No idea of price but I know cantman cut her a huge break.
10) Buys powder skis, has a grand old time at Snowbasin - 35days skiing, uncounted direct cost, uncounted tear, frustration, grit, determination, anxiety cost. And every step on the journey was highly recommended (well, except for my part).

#9 is where inline skating rules for muscle retraining. Climb a few 3%-8% grades a month using the crazy legs drill and neither your adductors nor your abductors will ever be sore alpine skiing.

On the upside for skiing, something is *right* in the coronal plane if your footbeds and boot cuffs are putting you in a stance where you can use your adductors enough to make them sore - without chafing your medial calf or grinding away at your navicular.

 

[AmyPJ]

I experienced this at Masterfit. I got used as an example fit with my Raptors. Even two methods of measuring my cant didn't agree with each other. One said I needed to go one way, the other said the other. Honestly, I found it all super interesting and didn't think of it as the fitters not knowing what they were talking about but just different ways to skin a cat. In the end, my boots are super close to perfect (I may need a wee bit more room for my big toe on the right foot) and I learned a lot.

Well THAT'S kind of crazy.

 

[cantunamunch]

Well THAT'S kind of crazy.

See in my book, that's *good*. Disagreement like that is awesome because it allows you to gauge outcome probabilities - and because then you know the backing methods are independent of each other and good checks for each other.

Consensus is scary - and not useful- because you wind up getting less information overall and you never know how much any of the consenters gave up from their mental models in order to agree.