High Performance Driver Education

[rcc55125]

@bbinder PCA is a great club, specially for HPDE. If you want a car you can drive to events why not sell the convertible and buy a 911 coup, even another 2009. Their great cars for HPDE. You don't need a lot of mods, shocks and high performance tires and your good for a couple of years.
I looked at a 911T at the Chicago Auto Show in 1970. It was less than my yearly salary at the time. Now, I can't come close to a new 911 with two years income. I sure wish I would have bough an air cooled 911.
One of my favorite cars for a dedicated track car is a 968. They are rare today but not too costly. They can be pretty well built up but handle great stock. The only thing, to make them really fast you have to swap the motor, even a big turbo won't keep up with the newer cars. I would keep it NA and do breaks and chassis. And, you could still drive it to the track and have a lot of fun and still be able to keep the 911.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Great comments and suggestions!

I put this out there because I started doing HPDE last year with my new (used) 2009 911 convertible. Marcia joined me - at our first event we shared a car, an instructor, and a helmet ( I know - ew). We are both enjoying it quite a bit, and I bought Marcia her own helmet for Mother's Day this year. We have gotten involved with the local Porsche club (pca ner) - great group of people, and they emphasize safety and fun. Up to this point, we are using the 911 and it is totally stock, except for upgraded brake fluid - I still feel that I have not hit the limits of what the car can do in this configuration. The club requires a tech inspection at a mechanic within 2 weeks of each event and the car is looked over each morning of the event. We do feel that staying with this particular club is part of the appeal for continuing to attend HPDE events.

So I am not looking to go crazy with but I realize that it is quite easy to get caught up in everything... I plan to drive to the track in whatever car I use, and will stick with street tires. I am balancing the relative cost of wear and tear on the current car vs what it would cost to buy and maintain an additional car. As far as expense -- I was hoping to add a third bay to our garage at home, and I have money set aside for this, but we have been essentially unable to find a contractor willing to the work. So, I can possibly skip the garage and buy a car... I do plan to continue to buy track insurance for whichever car goes to the track - $280 extra for agreed upon value of the car for a 3 day event is worth the extra piece of mind. As I (hopefully) improve, the idea of a roof, at least a half cage, and harness setup with Hans device is appealing - I am told that putting a cage into a 911 cabrio is problematic.

I do agree that learning to drive smoothly is more important that going fast. Being able to go a little faster with giving fewer point bys is appealing. There are some folks that run BMWs at the Porsche events, and that may be a less expensive alternative than a Cayman. There have been a couple of Miatas at these events - they are heavily modified... As much as I love the look, a GT3 is out my reach. By a lot.

Oh: I guess that I will have to talk to Marcia before going out and buying another car...

Sounds like you need a Cayman.

 

[Ken_R]

Great comments and suggestions!

I put this out there because I started doing HPDE last year with my new (used) 2009 911 convertible. Marcia joined me - at our first event we shared a car, an instructor, and a helmet ( I know - ew). We are both enjoying it quite a bit, and I bought Marcia her own helmet for Mother's Day this year. We have gotten involved with the local Porsche club (pca ner) - great group of people, and they emphasize safety and fun. Up to this point, we are using the 911 and it is totally stock, except for upgraded brake fluid - I still feel that I have not hit the limits of what the car can do in this configuration. The club requires a tech inspection at a mechanic within 2 weeks of each event and the car is looked over each morning of the event. We do feel that staying with this particular club is part of the appeal for continuing to attend HPDE events.

So I am not looking to go crazy with but I realize that it is quite easy to get caught up in everything... I plan to drive to the track in whatever car I use, and will stick with street tires. I am balancing the relative cost of wear and tear on the current car vs what it would cost to buy and maintain an additional car. As far as expense -- I was hoping to add a third bay to our garage at home, and I have money set aside for this, but we have been essentially unable to find a contractor willing to the work. So, I can possibly skip the garage and buy a car... I do plan to continue to buy track insurance for whichever car goes to the track - $280 extra for agreed upon value of the car for a 3 day event is worth the extra piece of mind. As I (hopefully) improve, the idea of a roof, at least a half cage, and harness setup with Hans device is appealing - I am told that putting a cage into a 911 cabrio is problematic.

I do agree that learning to drive smoothly is more important that going fast. Being able to go a little faster with giving fewer point bys is appealing. There are some folks that run BMWs at the Porsche events, and that may be a less expensive alternative than a Cayman. There have been a couple of Miatas at these events - they are heavily modified... As much as I love the look, a GT3 is out my reach. By a lot.

Oh: I guess that I will have to talk to Marcia before going out and buying another car...

The Naturally Aspirated Caymans are superb cars for the track. They are pretty bulletproof. Even the base models are really nice.

 

[bbinder]

Sounds like you need a Cayman.

The Naturally Aspirated Caymans are superb cars for the track. They are pretty bulletproof. Even the base models are really nice.

That’s what I am thinking. I may start looking for an S model with sport chrono starting in the fall. And then I will have to see if I can afford it it. Until then I can dream and fantasize... there is a race shop near us that comes to all the DE events — I may have to find out if they have any pets.

 

[Philpug]

Miata is always to answer if you want a car you can push hard, is cheap on parts, and you can make pretty competitive. It's also one of the best cars to learn on. It's a momentum car, so you can go into corners faster and carry more speed through than other higher power, higher weight performance cars.

That pretty much sums up the Miata.

 

[Philpug]

Getting back to the original post. When I was AutoXing and taking HPDE, for me, it was not about going as fast as I can but learining about the car that I was driving and the education to drive that car as safely and as controlled as possible ONCE I got away from the training process. I Solo'ed and tracked with my street tires, I didn't have R compounds. I didn't want the false sense of security of a race tire on the course or on thr track because when I got back on the road, I wouldn't have a sub 200 TWR when out on the road. @bbinder needs to decide what he wants, and I think thats why he is asking...does he want to be fast on the track or fast on the streets (responsably, of course)? It sounds like he got that taste for speed and it can be intoxicating.

 

[bbinder]

Getting back to the original post. When I was AutoXing and taking HPDE, for me, it was not about going as fast as I can but learining about the car that I was driving and the education to drive that car as safely and as controlled as possible ONCE I got away from the training process. I Solo'ed and tracked with my street tires, I didn't have R compounds. I didn't want the false sense of security of a race tire on the course or on thr track because when I got back on the road, I wouldn't have a sub 200 TWR when out on the road. @bbinder needs to decide what he wants, and I think thats why he is asking...does he want to be fast on the track or fast on the streets (responsably, of course)? It sounds like he got that taste for speed and it can be intoxicating.

And I am curious as to what people’s opinions are! Getting different perspectives is part of the fun of this whole thing. If I was starting out and looking for a club to learn DE, it seems a no brainer to get a Miata for all of the reasons that have been expressed above. Unfortunately I have gotten sucked into this whole Porsche thing, so the cost automatically goes up... I am getting faster and smoother — I was promoted from green to yellow this spring, and my recent evaluation from the instructor at Watkins Glen has me on the cusp of moving up to blue. So I will be among faster drivers, and having a car with more safety features is appealing. And yes, I want to keep the cabrio... it reminds me of my Miata.

 

[Philpug]

And I am curious as to what people’s opinions are! Getting different perspectives is part of the fun of this whole thing. If I was starting out and looking for a club to learn DE, it seems a no brainer to get a Miata for all of the reasons that have been expressed above. Unfortunately I have gotten sucked into this whole Porsche thing, so the cost automatically goes up... I am getting faster and smoother — I was promoted from green to yellow this spring, and my recent evaluation from the instructor at Watkins Glen has me on the cusp of moving up to blue. So I will be among faster drivers, and having a car with more safety features is appealing. And yes, I want to keep the cabrio... it reminds me of my Miata.

Then I would go to @epic's suggestion....a Boxster, the entry cost is reasonable but well..it goes up from there..but we ARE talking racing .

 

[Chip]

@rcc55125 sorry for the typo- occasionally my space bar doesn't work
The PCA schools that I have done are very well run and a bargain for the cost. Typically you get 3 days for the price of 2 days when compared to a BMW CCA event. The only issue I have with the PCA schools (at least the ones I've participated in) is that they sign off their students quickly. It seems that it's cool to be "solo". Whereas, in the BMW schools- everyone gets an instructor- even the top tier drivers. I don't know of anyone that can't use more instruction, and if you don't, then why aren't you getting paid millions to race?

@bbinder- sounds like you're enjoying another expensive hobby. The advantage of a dedicated track car will become more obvious the more you do these schools, and the initial costs will go up, but could level off depending on the car you choose. I know for the BMW e30- I can get 6 or more schools on brake pads and a couple of years on r-comp tires, and as an instructor I'm running many more sessions than a student. The only thing I really do for a school is brake fluid and check the oil. Other than that, the cost is minor. I'm sure the Miata's are very similar for wear and tear items and maintenance costs overall. If you ever come down to VIR for a school, hit me up.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

PCA is definitely the best bang for the buck out there and the instructors are usually great as well as being enthusiasts themselves. I met many good friends through PCA. Many regions (not all) require Porsches on track for their events.
No matter what, it can be a slippery slope once you get addicted. I started HPDE with a stock 944 back in 1996. I was soon doing a lot of weekend driving events. Within a year, I needed a truck and a trailer to take the car to events. Then it quickly became a Club race car with cage, seats etc. That then graduated to a GT class car with no interior, full race tires and club races most weekends. I sold that car and built a full on 911 tube framed GT car, and upgraded to a bigger truck and enclosed trailer. Then moved onto a GT-3 cup factory race car. This was all under the guise of "club racing". We were traveling the entire east coast Florida to Canada and as far west as Road America, Mid Ohio and Putnam Park. Eventually I even made the jump to some lower level Pro series racing (paid for my seat). I completely lost cars due to fires and numerous crashes. Whatever you drive, make sure you are willing to walk away from it because most of the time insurance won't cover it.
I guess what I am saying, is it's a wonderful time, and the camaraderie and thrill is unmatched. It is however, very easy to get sucked in and be spending $$$$$ for just a little more performance or a little more of a thrill. I only stopped in 2010 after a couple years of going through a difficult divorce, otherwise, I'd probably still be involved it today. I still drive an older Porsche on the weekend but haven't been to the track since.

 

[bbinder]

I get the idea of the slippery slope. Fortunately, I have some definite goals in mind, athese goals plus and restrictions will keep me from getting in too deeply.

I have great things about VIR! That long a trip is not in the cards for us in the near future.

 

[scott43]

So my three year old didn't want to go on the kids car ride today because he checked if the steering wheel actually turned the wheels and it didn't. ..

 

[AlpsSkidad]

VIR is a great venue, but don't be afraid of heading north as well- Canadian Tire motorsports park (formerly Mosport) just north of Toronto is an awesome track. It became a favorite of mine.

 

[Core2]

Racing cars - one of the few hobbies that actually costs more than skiing. But man it is fun.

 

[scott43]

VIR is a great venue, but don't be afraid of heading north as well- Canadian Tire motorsports park (formerly Mosport) just north of Toronto is an awesome track. It became a favorite of mine.

It's a religious experience..especially topping the hill on the back straight at 250kmh on an R6... It's also frightening..someone died the day before one of my track days there..sombre would be a good word..anguish. Play safe folks.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

It's a religious experience..especially topping the hill on the back straight at 250kmh on an R6... .

Unexpectedly there is quite a bit of pucker factor on that track-
my favorite memory was running 3 cars wide, downhill through turn 4 charging for the turn it at turn 5.

 

[bbinder]

The winner will be announced soon...

 

[bbinder]

2010 Cayman S. Picked it up in Virginia and drove it home to Massachusetts this past weekend. I think I’m gonna like this car on the track!

 

[Josh Matta]

If you ever get to Beaverun over in Pa see if you can run faster than 1:09 on the north track.

MY best advice for you with the new car if you plan to run it on the track.

1. get good high temp brake pads
2. get ATE Superblue Brake fluid
2(a) stainless brake lines if the porches doesnt already have them.
3. Get some high performance dstiff sidewall street tires like Falken Azenis

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...dsJWjPvTdRTjmwDhwOLJzRNoU7tsHjDMaAhIcEALw_wcB




after those steps, if it truly a track car

get a good roll bar
5 or 6 point harness.

after that always focus on the cars handling prior to adding more power. Powerful cars that cant stop or turn that well are sketchy.

 

[scott43]

Like Josh says, you'd ideally like the car to be nice to drive. That means balance and poise. I don't know how many miles are on the 2010 but that's 8 years old already. It might be worthwhile to check the suspension, bushings, struts, alignment to make sure the car is in-spec. Power is the last thing you really want, there's a lot to learn ahead of that.