Going Tubeless

[Plai]

Well today, I went tubeless. The wheels were tubeless easy (no rim tape needed), tubeless values came with the bike (and I actually found them after 3 years ;-), and I had sealant lying around from my road tubeless conversion. So, removed the tubes, installed the tubeless valves, position the beads as best as I can, sealant and floor pump and done. Wow, that was much easier than my road tubeless experiment. It's been 6 hours and air is still holding.

Hopefully will be chasing my "pressure of choice" in the next few weeks/months.

 

[Tom K.]

Well today, I went tubeless.

Hopefully will be chasing my "pressure of choice" in the next few weeks/months.

Welcome to the wonderful -- and occasionally infuriating -- world of tubeless.

For pressure, start a bit high and ride a familiar, rocky, rooty trail section repeatedly.

Keep reducing pressure until your tires go from pinging off the rocks, to giving what I call a muted thump feedback.

 

[Philpug]

Welcome to the wonderful -- and occasionally infuriating -- world of tubeless.

For pressure, start a bit high and ride a familiar, rocky, rooty trail section repeatedly.

Keep reducing pressure until your tires go from pinging off the rocks, to giving what I call a muted thump feedback.

Yeah, I have been playing with pressure too. What worked in the Rekon isn't good in the DHF/R II.

 

[Rod9301]

Phil was kind enough to *NOT* mention me biffing on a downhill series of switch backs. I was taking them a little fast/hard, trying to use the outside berm for support on the turns. Well, one of the "berms" was a little soft (sand), my front wheel washed out and I went down. [Pictures of knee scraps omitted for gentle readers ;-]

My usual trails in the Santa Cruz mountains are pretty much loam or soft-ish dirt. I hadn't gone tubeless, because I didn't need the lower tire pressure. So, why fix something not broken?

Well, the Peavine's rocky terrain (not shown in above pictures), sandy terrain, and really hard pack kept me wondering if I should make the switch over to tubeless. It would probably provide a less bouncy ride (read more controllable), softer ride (read more controllable), and get me more grip (read more controllable ;-).

Well today, I went tubeless. The wheels were tubeless easy (no rim tape needed), tubeless values came with the bike (and I actually found them after 3 years ;-), and I had sealant lying around from my road tubeless conversion. So, removed the tubes, installed the tubeless valves, position the beads as best as I can, sealant and floor pump and done. Wow, that was much easier than my road tubeless experiment. It's been 6 hours and air is still holding.

Hopefully will be chasing my "pressure of choice" in the next few weeks/months.

Now you need to add cush core instead l inserts, you will not get flats anymore, plus you can run 12-13 psi which will greatly improve traction.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Since we are on the topic of tubeless tires:

a) what happens when you sealant gunks up your valve and you can't get pressure readings or pump the tires up?

and

2) how difficult is it to get tubeless off in the field when you need to put in a tube?

Asking for myself. ;-)

 

[nay]

Since we are on the topic of tubeless tires:

a) what happens when you sealant gunks up your valve and you can't get pressure readings or pump the tires up?

and

2) how difficult is it to get tubeless off in the field when you need to put in a tube?

Asking for myself. ;-)

1) I carry a presta valve core remover tool for that very reason (they are very small and light). Once the core is out anything thin and sharp can be used to break the seal. I don’t carry that part of the solution such as a very small pick and I probably should.

2) No difference except it’s messy.

 

[nay]

Now you need to add cush core instead l inserts, you will not get flats anymore, plus you can run 12-13 psi which will greatly improve traction.

They are heavy, though.

The key IMO is to find the right balance of PSI and fork compression and rebound settings. With the Fox 36 Grip 2, my sweet spot is around 21 PSI with fairly low compression resistance, and I took out one of the two volume spacers because it was crappy no matter the settings with 2 spacers (150mm travel).

I don’t think tire pressure can be treated independently, at least with the higher end suspensions. I used to prefer running lower PSI on the Fox 34 FIT, but at least on my new bike with the Grip2, it doesn’t work well and just makes the bike slow and climb technical stuff poorly.

That’s not to say that with cush core I couldn’t find the sweet spot, but I also have a coil shock and those create traction differently than air shocks. It’s interesting as the damping technology evolves every year.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Thanks @nay. I'm off to the LBS for a core remover, gloves (tree work is hard on them) and maybe a small frame pack.

 

[4ster]

Now you need to add cush core instead l inserts, you will not get flats anymore, plus you can run 12-13 psi which will greatly improve traction.

I am interested in cushcore but probably not till my next set of tires. How did it effect climbing performance?

Since we are on the topic of tubeless tires:

a) what happens when you sealant gunks up your valve and you can't get pressure readings or pump the tires up?

and

2) how difficult is it to get tubeless off in the field when you need to put in a tube?

Asking for myself. ;-)

I used to get the gunk problem occasionally with Stan’s. No problem so far with Orange Seal the past few years.

I think I’ve only had to put a tube in once but it was long ago and I don’t remember it being an issue.
I do remember being with a friend and having a very difficult time and breaking a few of our little plastic tire irons. I know he now carries a big metal tire iron with him.

 

[Rod9301]

I am interested in cushcore but probably not till my next set of tires. How did it effect climbing performance?


I used to get the gunk problem occasionally with Stan’s. No problem so far with Orange Seal the past few years.

I think I’ve only had to put a tube in once but it was long ago and I don’t remember it being an issue.
I do remember being with a friend and having a very difficult time and breaking a few of our little plastic tire irons. I know he now carries a big metal tire iron with him.

With cush core you don't need to carry a pump, you can get back with a flat tire

 

[AmyPJ]

They are heavy, though.

The key IMO is to find the right balance of PSI and fork compression and rebound settings. With the Fox 36 Grip 2, my sweet spot is around 21 PSI with fairly low compression resistance, and I took out one of the two volume spacers because it was crappy no matter the settings with 2 spacers (150mm travel).

I don’t think tire pressure can be treated independently, at least with the higher end suspensions. I used to prefer running lower PSI on the Fox 34 FIT, but at least on my new bike with the Grip2, it doesn’t work well and just makes the bike slow and climb technical stuff poorly.

That’s not to say that with cush core I couldn’t find the sweet spot, but I also have a coil shock and those create traction differently than air shocks. It’s interesting as the damping technology evolves every year.

This has been my experience, too. I've had quite a time getting the tire pressure and rebound and such set up with the Fox Performance 36, which is a new-to-me fork this year on a new bike. I finally have it dialed in, I think. I took ALL of the spacers out of the fork, (I believe there are 5 of them) run it about 10 pounds lighter than recommended after doing the SAG test, and I won't even say what I'm running my 2.6 tires at. (OK, 10.5 in the front on the digital gauge, which reads at 14.5 with the gauge on the pump itself.) I can go so much faster set up this way, because I don't bounce off of every little obstacle on the trail, while descending OR climbing. I run 12.5 pounds on the rear tire, which I know seems ridiculous, but again, no issues, great traction, and it's not hampering my climbing. I believe the shock is backed off by about 8 pounds from recommended.

 

[nay]

Thanks @nay. I'm off to the LBS for a core remover, gloves (tree work is hard on them) and maybe a small frame pack.

I’ve come to think that Specialized’s SWAT box is indispensable - it holds the small tools (I carry a small and light pump, valve core remover, and spoke tensioner tool) plus gummies or other treats in the frame.

No longer need a pack except for extra water for longer rides. Not sure why this isn’t more common on carbon frames.

 

[nay]

This has been my experience, too. I've had quite a time getting the tire pressure and rebound and such set up with the Fox Performance 36, which is a new-to-me fork this year on a new bike. I finally have it dialed in, I think. I took ALL of the spacers out of the fork, (I believe there are 5 of them) run it about 10 pounds lighter than recommended after doing the SAG test, and I won't even say what I'm running my 2.6 tires at. (OK, 10.5 in the front on the digital gauge, which reads at 14.5 with the gauge on the pump itself.) I can go so much faster set up this way, because I don't bounce off of every little obstacle on the trail, while descending OR climbing. I run 12.5 pounds on the rear tire, which I know seems ridiculous, but again, no issues, great traction, and it's not hampering my climbing. I believe the shock is backed off by about 8 pounds from recommended.

I honestly haven’t been that impressed by my Fox 36 Performance Elite for all around use - it’s noisy on rebound (the little “whoosh” noise they are known for) and small bump sensitivity has been hard to dial in - the Fox 34 Factory FIT on my Stumpy ST is luscious in comparison.

However....on fast technical downhills it is money (just rage through anything, 150mm is generally plenty with a 63.9° head angle in high position) and thats where you need more tire pressure, too. I find 21 PSI (on the pump, I think it is reading low) to be a bit much so I back it off some, but for “regular” trail riding I probably would not run above 18 front or rear on 2.6 Butchers, with more pressure I’m only 4 clicks off fully open for high speed compression and around the same for low speed. I’m 175 lbs.

I’m tempted to take out the second spacer as well, but I get through all of the travel occasionally and the progressive ramp up of compression is much better now. It was pretty much a brick with both spacers. It will be nice to see chamber designs evolve to ditch those adjusters, they are far from fine tuned for a fork with so much other adjustability, IMO.

The Fox DPX2 coil shock, OTOH, is just money. It is so smooth and plush through everything and coil shocks just climb like crazy. Unreal the amount of traction on the back of that bike, it calls out my lack of skill constantly, but I am getting up stuff easily that I struggled with on the shorter bike that supposedly climbs better. And hucks to flat are so stable.

The days of short is better for really anything are in a coffin that has seen its final nail. Weight is a different story.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I highly recommend a digital pressure gauge. It takes the 'hope the gauge is accurate' out of the equation.

Maybe I could cut a hole in my bike's down tube for storage...

 

[Tom K.]

Since we are on the topic of tubeless tires:

2) how difficult is it to get tubeless off in the field when you need to put in a tube?

Asking for myself. ;-)

It can be a bit harder. I got a new tire plugging tool called a Stans Dart. I like that the plug itself is not a gooey "worm" that inevitably dries up when you need it. On the Dart, it's a dry plug that reacts with the latex in the tubeless sealant. I need to do a trial and report back.

We played with the Motion Shot App on the iPhone.

OK, there are 4 Tricias in each shot, and 5 or 6 Phils in each shot, which can only mean.........

Tricia is going faster than Phil!

I honestly haven’t been that impressed by my Fox 36 Performance Elite for all around use - However....on fast technical downhills it is money (just rage through anything,

The Fox DPX2 coil shock, OTOH, is just money.

Yup, the Fox 36 is best at charging. Mine seems pretty darn plush with almost no LSC or HSC, but a Pike is more buttery -- and kind of fills the middle ground between a Fox 34 and 36. Conversely, a Lyrik is even less plush than a Fox 36 -- at least the one I rode.

@nay, do you have a coil DHX2 or an air DPX2? Both are money shocks.

 

[AmyPJ]

I highly recommend a digital pressure gauge. It takes the 'hope the gauge is accurate' out of the equation.

Maybe I could cut a hole in my bike's down tube for storage...

I bought two digital gauges and they didn't agree with each other, those pesky things. I kept the one that was giving consistent readings and returned the Topeak, which was giving varied readings. So, I have 4 gauges, including an analog one, and not one of them gives the same reading. It's kind of funny. I just know what pressure I want on the digital gauge and go by that.

 

[Plai]

I bought two digital gauges and they didn't agree with each other, those pesky things. I kept the one that was giving consistent readings and returned the Topeak, which was giving varied readings. So, I have 4 gauges, including an analog one, and not one of them gives the same reading. It's kind of funny. I just know what pressure I want on the digital gauge and go by that.

Ok, don't get the Topeak digital gauge. Which did you keep? Inquiring minds and all ;-)

 

[Doug Briggs]

@AmyPJ , @Plai , I have a Topeak gauge and while I don't know how accurate it is, when I set my pressure with it, I get reliable responses from the tires. Which is to say, it may not be accurate, but it is repeatable, the latter being more important when we are aiming for subjective performance. It is my only digital gauge and the gauge on my floor pump is far from repeatable enough to rely on.



@Tom K. , I've added the plugs to my shopping list.

@Everyone, Thanks. I love this site! the people on this site. So helpful and ready to help.

 

[nay]

It can be a bit harder. I got a new tire plugging tool called a Stans Dart. I like that the plug itself is not a gooey "worm" that inevitably dries up when you need it. On the Dart, it's a dry plug that reacts with the latex in the tubeless sealant. I need to do a trial and report back.



OK, there are 4 Tricias in each shot, and 5 or 6 Phils in each shot, which can only mean.........

Tricia is going faster than Phil!



Yup, the Fox 36 is best at charging. Mine seems pretty darn plush with almost no LSC or HSC, but a Pike is more buttery -- and kind of fills the middle ground between a Fox 34 and 36. Conversely, a Lyrik is even less plush than a Fox 36 -- at least the one I rode.

@nay, do you have a coil DHX2 or an air DPX2? Both are money shocks.

Agreed it gets pretty plush with little to no HSC / LSC, but that should happen halfway through the clicks. And at least for me, it starts to want to push into bigger hits at those low settings and I can feel the bike slow down. I suppose it’s just not set and forget for any trail.

Which brings us back to tubeless. I can’t imagine dealing with tubes, although my Roval Traverse rims are 30mm inner width and that sets up really well with modern tires. 23-25mm rims are nowhere near as good in my experience. There is likely a question of “how much do I need to spend to make tubeless excellent?”. There’s a lot of factors there...

 

[AmyPJ]

Ok, don't get the Topeak digital gauge. Which did you keep? Inquiring minds and all ;-)

SKS https://www.sks-germany.com/en/products/airchecker-new-generation/