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Fore/Aft Balance and Physics

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James

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So, let’s think about the two boundary layers.

Ski tipped completely, ignoring boot out. What happens to radius when we bend it?

At the other extreme, at the shop, checking out the flex of the ski with our hands, no tipping, what happens to radius when we bend it?
What are you trying to get at?
If you could tip a ski 90deg to the surface it would just engage the contact points at tip and tail. It's sidecut would 0 or infinite.

In the store? Don't get it. Sidecut would be whatever it was made at.
Effective sidecut is what happens when you tip it and bend it on a surface. That's all that matters when skiing.

Do we agree that the amount of bend, for a given amount of tippping, is a function of speed?
No, it's just a function of tipping. Assuming enough pressure to bend it to the surface.
 

HardDaysNight

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Irrefutable. But...

Do we agree that the amount of bend, for a given amount of tippping, is a function of speed?

No

And, do we agree that, dynamically, one can shift com from forward-of-ski-center to center to aft-of-ski-center? And, in so doing, the “effective” edge of the ski’s edge shifts from fore to aft, from tip to tail? By effective edge that moves fore to aft, I mean meaningful snow interaction which requires two ingredients, contact with snow and meaningful pressure.

No
 

CalG

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Is there a previous thread on the topic of how a ski bends to form a turn in new soft deep snow?

;-)
 

François Pugh

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I could (and can) cleanly carve great 35 m radius turns on my old 70 m side-cut radius speed skis tipped to 60 degrees.

There are two equations involved. One simply deals with geometry and gives the radius that results from pressing the ski of a given sidecut into a flat surface at a given angle. The other, a vector equation dealing with geometry and forces gives the required angle to hold a turn at a given radius and speed. Where the solution sets of these two equations overlap, beautiful carves are made. You will never make a clean carve at 60 mph on a pair of FIS SL skis, nor a clean 10 m radius carve on a pair of FIS DH skis.

The Course designers job is to set the course to separate the field by making it difficult for the racers to make the gates and maintain a winning time. Often, that means the racers cannot carve the whole course. (using carve as arc-2-arc pure carves)
 

karlo

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What are you trying to get at?
If you could tip a ski 90deg to the surface it would just engage the contact points at tip and tail. It's sidecut would 0 or infinite.

I’m assuming the surface is soft enough for the ski to sink in

In the store? Don't get it. Sidecut would be whatever it was made at.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding the context of the OP and skis. Sidecut creates an unbent radius. Bending, I thought, changes the radius of the arc we can carve. More bending, tighter arc. I.e., we are not limited to just the radius imparted by sidecut. My real world experience with this is, using a softer ski, with similar sidecut-radius, I find it easier to bend the ski and carve short turns. Maybe I’ve got cause and effect wrong.

No, it's just a function of tipping. Assuming enough pressure to bend it to the surface.

Anyway, bending the ski at the shop, drawing tip closer to tail, I perceive a tighter radius.

(using carve as arc-2-arc pure carves)

Does that mean railroad tracks? Is that what’s meant by a pure carve?
 
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Mike King

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Irrefutable. But...

Do we agree that the amount of bend, for a given amount of tippping, is a function of speed?

And, do we agree that, dynamically, one can shift com from forward-of-ski-center to center to aft-of-ski-center? And, in so doing, the “effective” edge of the ski’s edge shifts from fore to aft, from tip to tail? By effective edge that moves fore to aft, I mean meaningful snow interaction which requires two ingredients, contact with snow and meaningful pressure.
Sure, you can move the CoM forward or aft along the ski, but you’d be surprised at how litttle it actually moves unless you start levering the ski with the front or back of the boot — a few inches maybe. Because of camber in the ski, I don’t agree with your effective edge concept — the camber, and bend in the ski, transfers pressure to the entire length of the ski and edge.

The amount of speed doesn’t have much to do with the amount of bend unless you are too light to December the ski.
 
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geepers

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The Newtonian physics is simple; there's just a lot of it, perhaps too much to keep in mind for some folk. But that doesn't matter; nobody does calculations in their head to slow down or speed up to just the right speed to take a long jump and hit the landing just so. Nobody integrates the forces on the ski to arrive at just the correct vector acceleration to make the best time down the mountain. It's all by feel and intuition.
PS. What may be simple to someone with 3 engineering degrees and a B.Ed. specializing in teaching physics could be beyond someone who had trouble with high school physics.
PPS. Something to think about. Almost all skis have a shorter turn radius in the front of the ski than in the tails, so if you pressure the ski on hard-packed snow so that it is firmly on the snow what radius will it carve? Pressuring it more, or more fore or more aft will not change its shape, until it slides forward into the new freshly made groove.

Yeah, that's just an appeal to authority. In this case a dubious authority - your own.

We have no idea if you actually have degrees in engineering and teach physics. And even if you do that's no guarantee that you have any greater insight re skiing than a person like me with only one degree in engineering and a long history of watching The Big Bang Theory.

Show me data for carving turns on a range snow conditions that shows pressuring the tips results in a noticeable speed reduction compared to minimal pressuring of the tips.

If you can't show such data then perhaps you could mathematically represent the friction component of the forces acting on a ski to show the difference between more or less pressuring of the tips.
 

geepers

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haha..... if you can't disprove the physics then use another tact. BTW, I meant "tact" with the sarcasm meter pegged.

That's a perfectly valid test.

After you claimed that pressuring the tips in moguls slowed the skier I did exactly Josh's test into some gentle bumps on a nice firm icy day. No noticeable slowing at all.

How about some actual data? The last 'data' provided was kind of out of date (before shaped skis) and not relevant (sliding turns).
 

Doby Man

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I hear the words “turn shape” thrown around a lot on this thread, and many other threads, yet have not heard anyone explain exactly what they are talking about. What "turn shape" really means, “to me”, is turn depth and the degree of turn reached. They are all “shaped” the same way (just look at the tracks of a goods skier) and are only different as to their length and depth. Yes, some racers make “J” shaped turns and mogul skiers do shape their turns around the bumps but that is more about “line” than turn shape. Turn size is more about rhythm and timing and not about shape. The key to making or “shaping” turns with maximum depth or degree of turn is to create as much lateral displacement between our center of mass and base of support (CoM/BoS), within the same size turn, as possible. The keys to that are higher tipping under an more stabley directed CoM while letting go of everything in between. This “letting go” is allowing with looseness and mobility the key movements of CoM/BoS separation which are flexion, extension, rotation, angulation and inclination.

While there is a lot of talk about letting the path of the ski vs the path of the CoM create and develop counter, we can also let the path of the ski, it’s mechanical output of a carving edge, create “all” the movements of separation that occurs between the CoM and BoS to include flexion, extension, angulation and inclination. Focussing on all these separate movements at once is not an easy feat and, perhaps one not ever actually met. If we instead focus on only a stable and well directed center of mass (our momentum) and our base of support (platform management) we can then allow the independent actions of these two separate loci of control to create all the above movements that occur in between them. When we let the path of the CoM and the path of the BoS and their forces work against each other, things can happen in a ski motored, automated fashion. Yes, we ski into counter allowing the ski itself to rotate our femurs to create that counter, but we also can use our passing through the virtual bump (GFR) to create flexion and extension that occurs under a vertically stable CoM. We can allow the changing slope of the ski itself, relative to the CoM/BoS vector (CBV), to create the passive dorsi and plantar flexion of a loose ankle following that slope of the ski. Therefore, the more degree of turn we reach in each turn, the more the slope of the ski changes relative to the CBV and the more dorsi and plantar flexion is required to remain over the center of the ski. We can also allow the longer path of the BoS to create the inclination that occurs between that and the CoM as well as allowing that inclination in turn entry “turn into” angulation as the path of the BoS travels under the CoM in turn completion. When our directives are limited to platform management at the feet and ankles and maintaining a quiet and stable CoM, we no longer need to be in charge of these five critical separational movements. When we allow the path of the ski to create all these movements, we are then free to let the circumstances of the turn itself to choose the duration, intensity, rate and timing of all of our flexion, extension, rotation, inclination and angulation. Viola! Everything is measured correctly, inherently. We are then also using the potentially powerful mechanical output of the ski to motor those efforts in order to ski more efficiently.

When we take instruction that considers the separational movements of flexion, extension, rotation, angulation and inclination as actively direct inputs based on visual output instead of the "kinetic output" based “systemic inputs” of fundamental movements, we are disallowing the ski to take that initiative for us and are ingraining that disallowment into a technical plateau based on a faulty developmental frame of reference. It makes the skier as the kinetic leader rather than the ski itself such as what I contend we observe from expert skiing. Along with all the other input directives a student typically receives in addition to these five facets of separational movement as direct inputs, it is no wonder that so many people conclude that skiing is a “non-intuitive” sport. It isn’t the sport that is non-intuitive, it is the path of dev chosen that is either intuitive or not intuitive. Coaching advanced skiers through a CoM/BoS focus is a much more athletic oriented, streamlined and intuitive process that recognizes the skier’s diverse biomechanical and intellectual individuality and teaches us to ski from the feet up. Good skiing elicits power from the ski, not the body. Good skiing elicits timing from the ski, not skier intent. Much conventional instruction, not all, yet much of what is facilitated here, still focuses on the more visually applicable and technically shallow perspective of applying direct inputs to achieve a certain visual output or aesthetic that does not greatly correspond with the output of the ski. To me, this is ignoring the actual complexity required to make things happen assuming that it can all be handled by skier intent. A complexity of which need not be handled intellectually at all and, instead, through training the body to respond appropriately.That said, I don't have a problem with teaching beginners and intermediates from a more simple and obvious upper body frame of reference. It is just that, at some points along the way, the developmental frame of reference changes with skill level.

Degree of turn diagram from one of the best sites out there, your ski coach.com:

shapeimage_16.png
 
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Mike King

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@Doby Man, I think there is truth in what you say, but I’m not sure if I’m totally on the same page, so let me explore it a bit with you.

Whether we use the skills concept, the fundamentals concept, or some other concept of skiing, skiing is a blend of these elements. You can’t ski using only one element—you will always need a blend. Most importantly, skiing well requires that these skills are autonomous, and you aren’t going to be successful if you are cognitively trying to think about all 5 (or even 3) elements, particularly when it comes to the DIRT of them.

So, then, how does one acquire autonomy in the skills, their blend, and the DIRT? Drills to skills is what’s worked for me. If there’s a problem with tipping, there might be tipping drills or, pressure control drills that develop those components. And by conscious practice, proficiency moves through the cognitive and associative stages to the autonomous stage. Integration comes from skiing different terrain. But the objective is to get to the point where the stuff happens without thinking about it. That is, the CoM is balancing on the BoS and accepting the performance of the skis.

Perhaps I don’t understand what you are attempting to convey, but am I on the right track?
 

jack97

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That's a perfectly valid test.

After you claimed that pressuring the tips in moguls slowed the skier I did exactly Josh's test into some gentle bumps on a nice firm icy day. No noticeable slowing at all.

How about some actual data? The last 'data' provided was kind of out of date (before shaped skis) and not relevant (sliding turns).


The data is relevant given the GS ski dimensions of present day is going back to that of the 80s & 90s. The main point missed is that energy is transferred since the tip can be bent. The fact that the most persistent members who can not see this will turn out to be a futile effort for all who want to keep this topic going.

I think there is another form of hubris that one can decide by feeling how much speed is lost when pressing the tips. As Lind mentioned, one does not accelerate out of a carve turn, its a false sensation.
 
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François Pugh

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Force is a vector. Forces with a component directed in the opposite direction than the direction of travel will slow down the skier/ski free body, forces with a component directed in the same direction as the direction of travel will speed up the skier/ski free body. Surely even a mining engineer or mechanical engineer can see that?:duck:ogwink
 

jack97

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Engineers get this because of all the mechanics they have to take. If not, they should have their pocket protectors taken away. The problem is trying to explain this to non technical people when they have no clue.
 

geepers

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The data is relevant given the GS ski dimensions of present day is going back to that of the 80s & 90s. The main point missed is that energy is transferred since the tip can be bent. The fact that the most persistent members who can not see this will turn out to be a futile effort for all who want to keep this topic going.

I think there is another form of hubris that one can decide by feeling how much speed is lost when pressing the tips. As Lind mentioned, one does not accelerate out of a carve turn, its a false sensation.

So no data then.

And we are to take the special case of future FIS GS skis as the only case that gets considered. Never mind all the skiers out there carving 16m radius turns on 16m skis.



Force is a vector. Forces with a component directed in the opposite direction than the direction of travel will slow down the skier/ski free body, forces with a component directed in the same direction as the direction of travel will speed up the skier/ski free body. Surely even a mining engineer or mechanical engineer can see that?:duck:ogwink

Not denying that there will be an increase in friction from a ski under a turning load. The question is: how much compared to the changing acceleration from turning into and out of the fall line and how much this will be different for leaning on the tips vs being more centered on the ski. For various snow conditions.


Engineers get this because of all the mechanics they have to take. If not, they should have their pocket protectors taken away. The problem is trying to explain this to non technical people when they have no clue.


So still no data?
 

karlo

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Because of camber in the ski, I don’t agree with your effective edge concept

I think the corollary of what you’re saying is that if one pressures the tips first, then applies pressure progressively back as one makes the turn, one cannot have a pure carve? Is that the premise?
 
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I think the corollary of what you’re saying is that if one pressures the tips first, then applies pressure progressively back as one makes the turn, one cannot have a pure carve? Is that the premise?
Yep. That’s my contention. Read the first post.

I started this thread to attempt to reconcile the stand in the middle of the ski with the move forward crowds. I think that acceleration is the element that does so. Moving forward on an accelerating ski may keep the pressure in the venter, while moving aft on a decelerating ski may do the same. No one talks about acceleration in any of these discussions.
 

karlo

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I think that acceleration is the element that does so. Moving forward on an accelerating ski may keep the pressure in the venter, while moving aft on a decelerating ski may do the same. No one talks about acceleration in any of these discussions.

I think acceleration and deceleration of our COM is relevant. However, as to the skis in the context of a turn, as the COM moves in a constant velocity downhill, and as the ski carves a turn, I’d say it’s always accelerating in the arc.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/122284/why-doesnt-an-orbiting-body-keep-accelerating
 
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karlo

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The feet and the CoM are not orbiting bodies. The CoM is also not moving at a constant velocity.

No. But, weren’t you talking about the skis, their arc, their track? If so, can we get back to feet and COM a bit later? If not, I guess I lost train of thought.
 

karlo

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I thought about the feet and COM. Pressuring the tip has to do with moving COM forward. If we didn’t do that, the tip would not be engaged and pressured, relative to the rest of the ski. And, we can pressure the tip a lot. We can practically “land” on the tip. Which brings me back to “effective edge”. Just as we can pressure the tip at entry, we can jet out of a turn with the tails, pressuring those. That means pressure can continuously move from fore to middle to aft. That means, as the tip bends and is engaged, the center (thus the whole ski) is engaged, then the tails are engaged, the shape of the arc changes. And, one can also do a most dynamic leaper (more centered exit, than aft), releasing at a high tipping angle and entering a turn with high angle, towards tip or centered. All of this and more means that the arc of a carve is not just an arc of a circle. It can be elliptical, anything in between; it can be even non-symmetric, having a tight radius at entry, longer radius at apex, and medium radius at exit. None of this means skidding. All of this can be carved, or drawn like a stroke of calligraphy.
 
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