Foot distance while skiing?....

[Noodler]

Had the opposite issue - too narrow a stance 'cause that inside boot/leg was a lazy passenger resting against the outside boot/leg. (Well, that's the way it looked like they were skiing when growing up in the 60s/70s so that's what got copied/imprinted.)

Proved a challenging habit to break. For a couple of years every single instructor commented and tried to address. The independent leg action got resolved some time before the aesthetic - the aesthetic being knock knees made the stance look narrower than it was. Some of the drills were, ah, well meaning but not so effective. Like poles in the form of an X between legs levering them apart - sort of a good way to proceed to the scene of an accident. The one that eventually did the trick was to skis behind another skier and have my skis makes tracks either side of their tracks. 3 to 4 runs of that exaggerated, wide stance and not had an instructor comment on stance width since.

Might be interesting to try the reverse. Have a leader ski with a wide stance and the follower has to keep their tracks inside the leader's tracks.


Do wonder at comments here that a wide stance makes it more difficult to transition or less effective or whatever. Hirscher used whatever stance width (at transition) he wanted/needed (wide, narrow, in between) and seemed to manage just fine. GS or SL. As does Shiffrin, Ligety, LGB and likely a host of others. With the possible exception of The Rocket.




There's likely a broad range of stance widths that are effective and much depends on the context/intent. Not expecting it to get added to CARV's list of metrics.

The primary difference is speed. When traveling at much slower speeds, it's much harder to "get over" (aka topple) with a wider stance.

 

[stevo]

In fairness, since he brought up a picture of Marcel transitioning across a very wide float stance.... This is very much an "it depends" issue. I think for recreational skiing....narrow all the way. What you say @Noodler is true and my experience also. The main reason is because most of us can't get that old outside leg and ski out of the way fast enough and having a super wide stance just makes that even worse. Adding to that we will simply be late with tipping the inside ski unless we have a lot of crossover energy...and even then it will still be a little late for most of us in recreational skiing, or I would argue probably won't even happen very well at all, there will be a wedge entry.

On a race course, I would argue there can be situations where it's going to happen, such as the photo of Marcel above. This can happen simply because the gate offset is such that he had to come out of the previous turn extremely quickly before he had time to get completely upright at float for example. A forced situation, far from ideal in order to draw conclusions about how the rest of us should ski ideally recreationally. Secondly it has been pointed out to me that if their old outside leg is way down the hill like that, super wide transition...if they manage to release the old outside leg with relaxation to get it out of the way...which will be very difficult and athletic at that point, but we're talking about Marcel now, then some might argue that the imbalance that would be suddenly created at that moment might be greater and help to facility a faster toppling of the CoM in some way. I say maybe on that, I really think Marcel generally endeavored to not ski with a wide stance as his "base" turn type, but on the race course the gate offsets are set to be challenging for a reason and they do what they have to do, including the more athletic, arguably less efficient wide ski transition.

@geepers for sure narrow stance does not and should not mean legs glued together. They should be glued together about as much as they are when you walk down the sidewalk (maybe even less but not glued together). Most people walk down the sidewalk with a shockingly narrow stance i might add. If they ski with the same leg distance, their skis will be a few mere inches apart.

 

[geepers]

a picture of Marcel transitioning across a very wide float stance

A vid, not a picture. Multiple examples of that wide tx. And plenty of MH's races. Maybe there's one in here (all 67 wins) where he keeps a narrow stance the whole way....

I really think Marcel generally endeavored

Not sure any of us can make a definitive statement about what MH endeavored. You are welcome to an opinion but it is nothing more.

Do get a bit confused at times.... Should we have more ski racing in the instructional world and should we all make the (supposed) same moves as ski racers? Or we just be rec skiers?

The primary difference is speed. When traveling at much slower speeds, it's much harder to "get over" (aka topple) with a wider stance.

More than one way to initiate a topple.

Interesting to watch the 1st 10 seconds of that vid above of MH - in the left footer. He maintains his left ski platform whilst angulating over it. Meanwhile the right ski has low to zero pressure, tracks wide. And then he releases the left ski and, zoomph, he's inside the new turn and engaging the right ski. In this case the wider placed right ski helps rather than hinders.

 

[stevo]

A vid, not a picture. Multiple examples of that wide tx. And plenty of MH's races. Maybe there's one in here (all 67 wins) where he keeps a narrow stance the whole way....

Are you actually suggesting that marcel mainly skied around most of the time with a wide stance transition like that? If so you are wrong. As I already explained, sometimes it happens on a race course, requiring athleticism.

Not sure any of us can make a definitive statement about what MH endeavored. You are welcome to an opinion but it is nothing more.

because back in the day I watched him a lot.

Do get a bit confused at times.... Should we have more ski racing in the instructional world and should we all make the (supposed) same moves as ski racers? Or we just be rec skiers?

Nothing is all black or white. Certainly you think that already? Not sure the relevance to this discussion though.

 

[geepers]

because back in the day I watched him a lot.

That's nice.

You are entitled to make any conjecture you want about Marcel's (or anyone else's skiing) and others are entitled to point out that it's just conjecture, not fact, and that repeatedly stating it doesn't magically turn it into fact.

MHO WC skiers have a whole bag of tactics and just apply what they need for the situation. Rec skiers could probably benefit from having more tactical options.

 

[Noodler]

I guess I need to say it again since all of this race footage is attempting to make a case for a wider stance. For the recreational skier you are 100% better off with a functional natural narrower stance. This comes into play whether you're skiing a groomer, moguls, trees, powder, crud, etc. Have fun with your wide stance because it will only hold you back from becoming a better skier.

And with that I'm done here.

 

[stevo]

MHO WC skiers have a whole bag of tactics and just apply what they need for the situation. Rec skiers could probably benefit from having more tactical options.

No doubt geepers and I have more or less said exactly the same thing earlier in this thread. However it’s important to understand the pros and cons of every tactical option. The reality is that certain things will be very effective to use 90% of the time, perhaps more depending on the situation you are in. It sounds like you have decided that a wide stance is more effective for you at least 90% of the time and you don’t want to even discuss so far the possibility of ever intentionally using a narrow stance for some situation. That is your perogative of course.

 

[geepers]

It sounds like you have decided that a wide stance is more effective for you at least 90% of the time and you don’t want to even discuss so far the possibility of ever intentionally using a narrow stance for some situation.

It can be an effective tactic. No, not referring to wide stance. The tactic I'm referring to is labeling another poster as this or that in a forum. But this time it's a crash n burn - you've no idea what stance width I use any of time. (Although it could be inferred - if some-one skied for 40 years with that feet together 70s style we can pretty much bet the house that their default will not be 'wide'.)

 

[geepers]

I guess I need to say it again since all of this race footage is attempting to make a case for a wider stance. For the recreational skier you are 100% better off with a functional natural narrower stance. This comes into play whether you're skiing a groomer, moguls, trees, powder, crud, etc. Have fun with your wide stance because it will only hold you back from becoming a better skier.

Seems to be rather a lot of strawman-ing, label-ing and jumping to conclusions around here.

 

[stevo]

Good to hear Geepers if you are embracing narrow at least to some degree! I missed that earlier from you if you had already said that. what are the specific advantages you see in it and when to use it?

 

[Uncle-A]

I am joining this thread late and haven't read all of the posts. I have never had a ski/race coach but all the other sports coaches I have had have said a good athletic stance is not based on the hip but the outside of the feet should be as wide as the width of the armpits. I think in most cases that is narrower than the hips. It is in my case and it is a position I am very comfortable in when skiing. Even though when many of us were taught to ski it was considered too wide. But with new equipment a tight foot stance is not the best way to ski because the tips of the skis are so much wider than when most of us learned to ski. We had to relearn how to ski on fat/shape skis. Watching what the racers do may not be the best thing to do because most of us will never ski as well as the racers we are watching.

 

[COSkier87]

Through two seasons, my skiing didn't dramatically improve until I tried bringing my feet closer together than I thought they should be. It was a weird adjustment at first but it felt smoother.

Much quicker edge engagement and more stable angulation going into turns. Emphasizing dorsiflexion plus an engaged core in combination with the narrower stance allowed me to put a lot more power into my turns.

I'm sure that magic point is different for everyone, but I would think the more narrower your skis are, the less important a narrower stance is.

 

[geepers]

Good to hear Geepers if you are embracing narrow at least to some degree! I missed that earlier from you if you had already said that. what are the specific advantages you see in it and when to use it?

A 'when did you stop beating my wife' question....?

See post #80.

No-one who has actually seen me ski has accused me of having a too wide a stance. And would hazard a guess that no-one ever will.

Watch this vid of Marcel's run - Reilly has nicely freeze framed each transition so we can easily check stance width. Is there a single transition in there you'd class as anything other than wide AF? A wide stance is not some rare athletic element of his skiing.




The point is not that we rec skiers should use a wide stance - the benefits of a narrow stance for most of our skiing is one thing we all seem to agree on. The point is that the moves alpine racers make often are quite irrelevant to rec skiers despite the ambit claims of some ski teaching systems.

 

[stevo]

the benefits of a narrow stance for most of our skiing is one thing we all seem to agree on.

Great to hear!

 

[Noodler]

A 'when did you stop beating my wife' question....?

See post #80.

No-one who has actually seen me ski has accused me of having a too wide a stance. And would hazard a guess that no-one ever will.

Watch this vid of Marcel's run - Reilly has nicely freeze framed each transition so we can easily check stance width. Is there a single transition in there you'd class as anything other than wide AF? A wide stance is not some rare athletic element of his skiing.




The point is not that we rec skiers should use a wide stance - the benefits of a narrow stance for most of our skiing is one thing we all seem to agree on. The point is that the moves alpine racers make often are quite irrelevant to rec skiers despite the ambit claims of some ski teaching systems.

The problem with using GS racing video is that "we as recreational skiers" should not be focusing at all on GS sized turns unless you're on skis with at least a 21m+ sidecut radius. Any ski that's down in the teens for sidecut means that cleanly carved higher edge angle turns are SL turns. Stance width in SL is pretty much 100% narrow.

If you're making GS turns on your SL skis, well... that's a whole other conversation.

 

[locknload]

Width varies with purpose. Watch:

Freestyle (mogul) on world cup - boots/skis nearly touching in moguls, then wider stance going into the jump and landing
Freeride world tour - stance width varies throughout the run
Downhill skier on world cup (generally a bit wider stance for stability)
Slalom skier on world cup (generally a bit narrower stance to be quicker between turns)

Narrower you get, the less stable but more maneuverable for short turns. Quicker foot to foot. Longer turns favor a wider stance. Quickness between end of one turn and start of next is traded for stability when widening the stance.

Play with different widths while you ski and see what feels 'good' for whatever you are doing. Exaggerate the narrow and wide to be sure you are really doing something. An inch or two can feel like a mile.

Love this..perfect summation. Mogul skiers need quick turning agility and need a narrow platform to navigate through moguls. Would be so hard to get through bumps with a wide stance as you'd have skis on different level terrain in many instances. Wider stance definitely makes more stance for a downhiller.

 

[locknload]

If the inside of my boots and pants are all cut up from my edges I'd guess you call that narrow..

For me it comes down to balance.. wider is more balanced.. which I find is dynamically slower.. I hate it.. the narrower the stance i find the quicker you can change edges.. much prefer to be less balanced laterally.. which sounds weird now that i think about it.. but that unbalance only occurs when i'm in transition between edges where you are unweighted. dunno..

Maybe i'm just oldschool.. but narrow is sexy..

Man...I have always loved Stein Eriksen....this is amazing. So incredibly graceful and so in tune with the mtn. I think he took sking to an art from. How gorgeous are those front lay out flips? Just wow.

 

[BTWilliams]

My personal take is that the advent of fat skis and shaped skis has been bastardized by Americans to a large degree to entail a super wide stance to 'lock n ride' ; Most coaches and especially instructors I encounter in the EU are more conscious of an appropriate narrower stance. As a sidebar, true short turns or short swing turns have all but disappeared in the States. A lot of this has to do with stance.

We still have Deb, Coop and Cindy to show how it is done....

 

[Noodler]

We still have Deb, Coop and Cindy to show how it is done....

You could put them all back on their skis from the '80s and they wouldn't look/ski any different.

 

[geepers]

The problem with using GS racing video is that "we as recreational skiers" should not be focusing at all on GS sized turns unless you're on skis with at least a 21m+ sidecut radius. Any ski that's down in the teens for sidecut means that cleanly carved higher edge angle turns are SL turns. Stance width in SL is pretty much 100% narrow.

If you're making GS turns on your SL skis, well... that's a whole other conversation.

Repeating myself....
The point is not that we rec skiers should use a wide stance - the benefits of a narrow stance for most of our skiing is one thing we all seem to agree on. The point is that the moves alpine racers make often are quite irrelevant to rec skiers despite the ambit claims of some ski teaching systems.