Flat light goggle question

[Vestirse]

Funny enough, I've been researching this for my husband who has really bad issues with flat light. He even has trouble with regular photochromatic lenses, though my son and I don't. I've wondered if his light eye color has anything to do with it, as my son and I have darker eyes. He uses Smith Amber lenses as his daily lenses for most days here in the PNW.

I use clear lenses in flat light. What is the science behind a high tech lens being better than no lens at all?

As far as I've been read, flat light conditions are a result of the scattering of blue light. Lenses that can offset this improves contrast and can sharpen visual perception.

Blue-Light-Cancelling Lens Gives Skiers a Clearer View | NASA Spinoff

spinoff.nasa.gov

Now the company is using the same foundational technology derived from NASA research to help skiers see terrain more clearly. For them, it’s not the color green but rather blue that can be a hindrance. Blue light comprises wavelengths of the visible spectrum that are easily scattered by air molecules, which is the reason the sky appears that color. But this scattering also causes blue light waves to bleed into mountainsides and other land features, creating a haze that can be troublesome for skiers visually, especially on overcast days.

 

[fatbob]

After trying Oakley Prism Hi Pink, and similar lenses in yellow and pink by a few manufacturers - they have all been beaten by a cheap and simple € 30 light yellow lens from a French rental shop.

For European white-out conditions, my cheap yellow no-nonsense goggles beat all the expensive tech.

Funny - after using Smith Chromapop Rose storm most of the season I pulled out my Wedze Hi yellow cheapies and end up sticking with them a few days. Think the yellow just makes me feel better on an overcast day. Guess yours are probably Cairn or similar.

 

[Cheizz]

I think they're branded 'Torrent' or something.

 

[Zirbl]

For me the Carl Zeiss Sonar Orange has been the best flat light and low light lens I have ever tried. My wife loves hers too. They are just a real PITA to find.

Same here. If you're struggling to replace it, have found Dragon's amber Lumalens to be very close to it.

 

[Gina D]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

 

[Vestirse]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

Is that basically taking your goggles off? Yes, I've played the goggles on, goggles off game and I personally prefer the contrast my rose tinted photochromatic lenses give me in flat light.

 

[salvatore]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

Is that basically taking your goggles off? Yes, I've played the goggles on, goggles off game and I personally prefer the contrast my rose tinted photochromatic lenses give me in flat light.

I think this is another data point as to how individual this is. I see much better either without lenses or with a clear lens when the light is flat.

 

[Gina D]

Is that basically taking your goggles off?

In effect, but they do make clear lenses, that's what I use in my Smith I/O goggles in flat light.

I think this is another data point as to how individual this is. I see much better either without lenses or with a clear lens when the light is flat.

Good to hear someone else sees it as I do (pun intended.)

Some day I'd love to A/B nice contrast enhancing lenses with clear lenses, but skiing is skiing and I don't know if I'll ever bother to do that lol.

 

[BLiP]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

Yes. I've occasionally used clear at night or if it is truly dark. I prefer a pink or yellow tint in daytime low light. For me, it increases contrast. I can't explain why, but I do prefer it. I'm sure this is an individual preference.

 

[Rod MacDonald]

While I was impressed by Ted Liggety's claims for his new lens' abilities, to improve race performance, empirical testing simply doesn't stack up : racers spend their life looking for hundredths - if a simple lens change could make a noticeable measurable improvement everyone would be using them..
It's also quite telling how many world Cup racers use particular brands too, in comparison to the brands market share.

 

[LiquidFeet]

TLDR.

Back in the Epic Ski forum days there was a long discussion on goggle lens colors. Dealing with flat light was a big part of the discussion. The most informed member posting was uilleann. I copied a lot of what this person posted. Here are some bits of what I copied and saved all these years (there's more that I have saved). Maybe this info might apply to the current discussion.

Flat light is so named because of the general lack of point source illumination that occurs with moderate to heavy cloud cover, and the associated loss of hard shadow and glare that we use in full sun conditions to help judge depth and speed. On snow, this scenario is further enhanced by the lack of color of the snow surface.

When we are young, say in our teens and 20's, we still have a large amount of natural contrast sensitivity, meaning our eyes are capable of noting the difference between very subtle differences in color and greys. As we age, that sensitivity will decrease over time. A commonly stated figure says that in our mid 60's it isn't uncommon to have lost 2/3rds of the ability we once had. Obviously, everyone is unique, and there is no quantifiable means of determining the amount of contrast sensitivity loss on our own, without an eye care professional's examination including contrast testing.

That is not to say that even in our youth, we won't ever struggle in certain flat or low light conditions. If the light is flat enough, or low enough, our eyes just don't do well. Particularly in the twighlight zone of human vision as our eyes are switching from cone cell vision (color and detail) to rods (black and white, and motion), called mesopic vision. The Purkinje shift, as it's called, as we make the transition, is a very difficult place for the human eye to function. Sadly, there is no magic goggle lens that can reverse this effect...until they start making them with KC Daylighter headlights perhaps.

As a general rule, a very lightly tinted lens that allows maximum light in to the eye (something in the 70-80% VLT is a great place to start), which also uses a warm color tint base such as yellow, amber, melanin, rose or brown, can help the eye to focus on subtle details more easily as conditions flatten out. A goggle that offers a quick change lens (such as the Smith Optics I/O series, or the Anon M1/Ms and the like) are excellent platforms should you often find yourself in variable light as the day wears on.

 

[Vestirse]

TLDR.

Back in the Epic Ski forum days there was a long discussion on goggle lens colors. Dealing with flat light was a big part of the discussion. The most informed member posting was uilleann. I copied a lot of what this person posted. Here are some bits of what I copied and saved all these years (there's more that I have saved). Maybe this info might apply to the current discussion.

Flat light is so named because of the general lack of point source illumination that occurs with moderate to heavy cloud cover, and the associated loss of hard shadow and glare that we use in full sun conditions to help judge depth and speed. On snow, this scenario is further enhanced by the lack of color of the snow surface.

When we are young, say in our teens and 20's, we still have a large amount of natural contrast sensitivity, meaning our eyes are capable of noting the difference between very subtle differences in color and greys. As we age, that sensitivity will decrease over time. A commonly stated figure says that in our mid 60's it isn't uncommon to have lost 2/3rds of the ability we once had. Obviously, everyone is unique, and there is no quantifiable means of determining the amount of contrast sensitivity loss on our own, without an eye care professional's examination including contrast testing.

That is not to say that even in our youth, we won't ever struggle in certain flat or low light conditions. If the light is flat enough, or low enough, our eyes just don't do well. Particularly in the twighlight zone of human vision as our eyes are switching from cone cell vision (color and detail) to rods (black and white, and motion), called mesopic vision. The Purkinje shift, as it's called, as we make the transition, is a very difficult place for the human eye to function. Sadly, there is no magic goggle lens that can reverse this effect...until they start making them with KC Daylighter headlights perhaps.

As a general rule, a very lightly tinted lens that allows maximum light in to the eye (something in the 70-80% VLT is a great place to start), which also uses a warm color tint base such as yellow, amber, melanin, rose or brown, can help the eye to focus on subtle details more easily as conditions flatten out. A goggle that offers a quick change lens (such as the Smith Optics I/O series, or the Anon M1/Ms and the like) are excellent platforms should you often find yourself in variable light as the day wears on.

I prefer tinted lenses so... hey, are you calling me old?! Guilty as charged, lol.

 

[Zirbl]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

Wouldn't confess to raving, but can certainly own up to trying clear. Didn't work for me but see plenty of racers using them.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Funny - after using Smith Chromapop Rose storm most of the season I pulled out my Wedze Hi yellow cheapies and end up sticking with them a few days. Think the yellow just makes me feel better on an overcast day. Guess yours are probably Cairn or similar.

Rose Storm is my least favorite of all Smith lenses, it is totally useless to me in flat light. Yellow all the way.

 

[udailey]

Forgot my goggles and had to buy a cheap pair at the tune/rent shop. Ended up with a cheap pair of Smith Persimmon. Awesome for $60. I skied Vail and BC from Feb 4 to 11 and we had bluebird and overcast. I was so pleased that I never experienced a lack of contrast and it was always a good amount of light.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Have any of you raving about yellow and orange ever tried clear? Just curious if you have any comparison data.

I have tried clear. The problem with clear is that it doesn't help with differentiating between smooth snow, ridges, and small ledges. Hi yellow lenses have always been my preference in flat light because they provide enough help with contrast that I don't accidentally fly off a ridge, that I didn't see, and catch air. I will second @Philpug on the Uvex low light lens. I have been skiing it a lot at Mount Rose this season, where flat light has been the general rule. I wear inserts with them and have had nice clear vision and better than average visibility in low light.

 

[Tom K.]

Rose Storm is my least favorite of all Smith lenses, it is totally useless to me in flat light. Yellow all the way.

Same. My current go-to flat light lens is (I think) Smith Yellow Storm. VERY light. Then I've got a medium Smith that I love, and a darker one for true spring skiing.

After switching a few times this week in Sun Valley for a forgetful reason, I was surprised to find that the Smith optics seemed better than my Anons, but that could also have been the light of the different days......

 

[Scrundy]

I’m convinced there’s no silver bullet for a flat light lens, only a lens that doesn’t make it worse. High vis yellow or clear I find works for me… over the years I’ve tried many.

 

[tomahawkins]

I use clear lenses in flat light. What is the science behind a high tech lens being better than no lens at all?

I think the theory is that light on the blue side of the spectrum scatters when it hits particles, which is the cause of flat light, whereas light on the red side scatters less. So if you can filter out the blue, you just see directional light and better contrast.

But does it work in practice? Does a rose or pink lens work better than no lens at all? In my experience, if there is a difference, it’s not much.

 

[Noodler]

I don't care how great a yellow lens may improve visibility, I live by the adage of not eating yellow snow and also not skiing it. I simply cannot stand looking at a yellow-tinted world. Rose for me. I prefer looking at the world through rose-colored glasses.