Dorsiflexion and its role in skiing

[LiquidFeet]

Teaching something clarifies how important it is. When a learner starts using something new and important in their skiing, the results show up. I should have put this in the first post, but better late than never.

Instructors, do you teach "dorsiflexion" to your students?
If yes, dorsiflex when and how? What teaching strategies work? What words/drills/break-downs do you use? Do you teach it directly or indirectly?

Instructors, do you teach dorsiflexion to kids as well as adults? How different is your approach, say, for a 49 year old adult 15-days-a-year skier who keeps their shins perpendicular to the skis compared to how you teach a 6 year old who skis the same number of days - with the same habit?

Non-instructors, what helped you learn to "dorsiflex"? What difference did it make in your skiing?

 

[Mike King]

@Brian Finch what stretches do you recommend to improve dorsiflexion? Calf stretches with straight and bent knee?

 

[Rod9301]

Any ideas what one should do in the case of limited dorsiflexion? I recently discovered (with a great bootfitter in Taos) that I have some of the most limited dorsiflexion around (1.5" on the wall test, compared to a normal of about 5"). This answered so many questions about why I walk kinda funny, why I can't really do squats, why I can't stand up from sitting on a snowboard facing downhill, etc. Still working to improve, but no demonstrable results after about 3 months.

In any case, what does the peanut gallery recommend? I've heard both yes and no to heel lifts, but I'm giving them a try. What about boot stiffness? Should I get super stiff boots to help translate what little dorsiflexion I have into pressure on the shovels? If it's this bad, shoud I just give up skiing and take up knitting?

Definitely more upright boot, otherwise your heel will lift.

Yes to adding a herl lift inside the boot,.

Stiff boots.

No to moving the binding.

 

[James]

Definitely more upright boot, otherwise your heel will lift.

Yes to adding a herl lift inside the boot,.

Stiff boots.

No to moving the binding.

This is likely like canting, sometimes thick out works, sometimes thick in, on the same person.
Upright boot- I guess it all depends which range his ankle is stuck in. As an extreme example, if you had limited range but the ankle was very closed, (and you walked like a gorilla), you'd want a lot of forward lean.
Heel lifts open the ankle joint. Maybe that's good, maybe not. 10 yrs ago we went through the "take two heel lifts and go ski phase".

The upshot is you've got to start trying things. With skis, we could say you want an even flexing ski. But, maybe actually a stiff tail works better. Likely, you want something of a compliant tip/shovel so it doesn't throw you back. But, that could be wrong too.
If you pay attention to the differences, and what works better, it'll start getting towards better compensation.

This drill gets mentioned a lot.

Interestingly, in my ski school, we’ve done it a lot in clinics. And I find that I am able to be completely quiet and stable as they violently move the skis fore and aft, without keeping my shins constantly against the boot tongue, but by using the range of motion of a flexible ankle while I focus on the location of my balance point on the bottom of my foot. I often watch colleagues who are “hanging on the equipment” - i.e. trying to keep constant pressure against the boot cuff - being tossed around as you describe.

What about the days of leather boots before skiers COULD lean against their tall boots cuffs? Do you think the good skiers of those days would have failed in this drill? I don’t.

So I think the ability to be successful in a drill like this is more complicated, and may be due to different factors having to do with the skier’s overall strategy for fore-aft balancing, rather than just the constant dorsiflexion frequently cited.

I would submit that - yes - if you tend to balance over a part of your foot that limits your balancing movements, or if you typically use a pretty rigid ankle, you will definitely struggle with this drill. And then maybe you DO need to lean against the boot cuff to keep from getting tossed around.

I know this will be a minority and probably unpopular perspective regarding this issue!

Yes, your solution is not what's expected. The drill is somewhat of a setup.

Never done that drill. Reminds me some of the old stance demonstration nonsense. Stand with your feet close together- "oh look, I can push you over" Now put your feet wide apart- "see how I can't push you over?" Never mind one can balance on one foot in a turn.

I teach "dorsiflextion" from day 1. Flex your leg from the ankle. That's moving the shin forward, not the foot towards the shin. Not bend the knee and sit back. But, imagine if in walking one only focused on active dorsiflextion- moving foot towards shin. You'd walk like a gorilla.

Pulling the foot back is now dorsiflextion? See, this is why it makes little sense to use these terms like dorsiflextion when it's apples and oranges.

 

[Wilhelmson]

On page two and nobody has mentioned purely carved arcs yet.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

On page two and nobody has mentioned purely carved arcs yet.

 

[Karl B]

Instructors, do you teach "dorsiflexion" to your students?
If yes, dorsiflex when and how? What teaching strategies work? What words/drills/break-downs do you use? Do you teach it directly or indirectly?

Instructors, do you teach dorsiflexion to kids as well as adults? How different is your approach, say, for a 49 year old adult 15-days-a-year skier who keeps their shins perpendicular to the skis compared to how you teach a 6 year old who skis the same number of days - with the same habit?

I don't teach dorsiflexion. I teach ankle flex. What is the difference you may ask? To me there are two kinds of ankle flex, active and passive. Active is where you pull the top of your foot (toes) toward your foot. This is what I consider to be dorsiflexion. Passive ankle flex is where you have pressure on the ball of your foot and you allow your ankle to close. Think of doing squats while maintaining your stance on the ball of your foot. I teach passive ankle flex from day one while teaching wedge turns. While I have a good number of colleagues that use active ankle flex with success, I struggle with it in my personal skiing. I figure if I can't do it, I shouldn't expect a novice in rental boots to do it either. I ski in Lange RS 120 with a 98 mm last. Fairly low volume boot. If I employ active ankle flex, I am not strong enough to make the boot move. Additionally, when my toes pull up I no longer feel pressure on the ball of my foot. When that happens I end up on my heels and that is not good.

This is the sequence of events as I make a turn. I realize they may not meet PSIA standards but they work well in a race course.
From crossover;
Upper body is facing downhill and projecting into the turn. Ankles are starting to close.
Hips move inside of turn and angulation begins. Skis are creating high edge angles. Ankles are passively closing. Upper body moving forward.
Approaching the apex I am applying pressure to my outside big toe and my inside little toe. (Can't do this if I pull my toes up)
As I exit the turn I return to pressure the balls of my feet and center my hips while facing downhill preparing for crossover again.

 

[markojp]

I don't teach dorsiflexion. I teach ankle flex. What is the difference you may ask? To me there are two kinds of ankle flex, active and passive. Active is where you pull the top of your foot (toes) toward your foot. This is what I consider to be dorsiflexion. Passive ankle flex is where you have pressure on the ball of your foot and you allow your ankle to close. Think of doing squats while maintaining your stance on the ball of your foot. I teach passive ankle flex from day one while teaching wedge turns. While I have a good number of colleagues that use active ankle flex with success, I struggle with it in my personal skiing. I figure if I can't do it, I shouldn't expect a novice in rental boots to do it either. I ski in Lange RS 120 with a 98 mm last. Fairly low volume boot. If I employ active ankle flex, I am not strong enough to make the boot move. Additionally, when my toes pull up I no longer feel pressure on the ball of my foot. When that happens I end up on my heels and that is not good.

This is the sequence of events as I make a turn. I realize they may not meet PSIA standards but they work well in a race course.
From crossover;
Upper body is facing downhill and projecting into the turn. Ankles are starting to close.
Hips move inside of turn and angulation begins. Skis are creating high edge angles. Ankles are passively closing. Upper body moving forward.
Approaching the apex I am applying pressure to my outside big toe and my inside little toe. (Can't do this if I pull my toes up)
As I exit the turn I return to pressure the balls of my feet and center my hips while facing downhill preparing for crossover again.

FWIW, pressing on the ball of the foot opens the ankle. There's a time and place to do this in higher level skiing. Closing the ankle, some respond to pulling feet 'back' or 'under'. You can also ask folks to lift the top of the instep toward their knee. If this results in a backseat movement, correct them and ask them to feel the tibialus anterior muscle contract. Not to the point of cramping, but just some functional tension. Ankle closes, CoM moves forward a couple very important inches, and in combination with foot tipping, magic starts to happen. YMMV.

 

[Corgski]

This is probably heresy and maybe should only be tried by someone who is already strongly foot focused but I have found it occasionally useful as an exercise to focus on relaxing my feet as much as possible. Ideally foot movements are accompanied with muscle activation further up the chain but it is possible to work your feet to exhaustion inside a boot without having much impact on anything outside the boot. Relaxing feet will result in a somewhat remote feel and loss of some edge control, however if in addition one feels a boost of power it is a sign that you are not getting the activation up the chain you want. Basically what is happening in that case is that by relaxing your feet you are forcing your brain to utilize the hamstrings more to close the ankle and keep your weight forward.

I doubt a more advanced skier will have this problem described above but sometimes in skiing instruction there is too much of an assumption that if one does A, B will automatically happen for everyone. I accept there is probably a better way to teach this to someone without telling them to focus on relaxing their feet....

 

[McEl]

one point of view:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E25B9A9E5E97B6AFB80FE25B9A9E5E97B6A&FORM=VIRE

 

[Brian Finch]

@Brian Finch what stretches do you recommend to improve dorsiflexion? Calf stretches with straight and bent knee?

I like to have folks do a little warm up (jog, bike, run) & then the CrossFit drill “27 squats” (google) & followed by some static wall sits (full low squat on wall) of two minutes duration or longer followed by the half kneeling to wall test or or mobilization.

Banded self mobilizations work too!

I think this is more critical to stretch with a bent knee as the latest research I looked at for GS shows a knee range of motion of 90 to 130° which would take out the inherent stiffness out of a straight leg gastroc

 

[LuliTheYounger]

FWIW, pressing on the ball of the foot opens the ankle. There's a time and place to do this in higher level skiing. Closing the ankle, some respond to pulling feet 'back' or 'under'. You can also ask folks to lift the top of the instep toward their knee. If this results in a backseat movement, correct them and ask them to feel the tibialus anterior muscle contract. Not to the point of cramping, but just some functional tension. Ankle closes, CoM moves forward a couple very important inches, and in combination with foot tipping, magic starts to happen. YMMV.

Unless I've misinterpreted, I think you guys are both saying the same thing? You can close the ankle by pulling the foot back (passive flexion), or you can do it by contracting the TA (active flexion) - or no?

I think if you emphasize pressing on the ball of the foot, some people will try to do that by lifting the heel & opening the ankle, like they're in ballet class - but if you relax the achilles tendon a little, you can get to the top end of your ROM & get a similar feeling of weight in the ball of the foot, even with the ankle basically closed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There are different understandings about what dorsiflexion accomplishes, and these different understandings are showing up in this thread. These differences are deep and significant. Maybe that's why we can't really can't find common ground on this topic. The thread may be doomed to get stuck in "discussions" about what dorsiflexion is.

Thoughts?

 

[Skisailor]

FWIW, pressing on the ball of the foot opens the ankle. . .

Yes. But this is one of the common misconceptions and confusions that come about when instructors are not precise about the difference between weight and pressure - something which I think PSIA should be more careful about. I may be wrong but I think @Karl B was probably talking about using our weight to close the ankle when he talked about “passive ankle flex” and “pressuring” the ball of the foot.

Of course if we “pressure” the ball of the foot by pushing on it we open the ankle and move our COM back relative to our BOS. That is completely different than balancing by centering our “weight” over the ball of the foot.

The most effective and efficient way to close the ankle, especially in a ski boot (!), is by using our body weight and the G forces that can be generated during a ski turn. The idea that we can meaningfully affect the degree to which our ankles are open or closed by applying muscle power (trying to raise our toes) is problematic, IMHO.

 

[Rod9301]

Yes. But this is one of the common misconceptions and confusions that come about when instructors are not precise about the difference between weight and pressure - something which I think PSIA should be more careful about. I may be wrong but I think @Karl B was probably talking about using our weight to close the ankle when he talked about “passive ankle flex” and “pressuring” the ball of the foot.

Of course if we “pressure” the ball of the foot by pushing on it we open the ankle and move our COM back relative to our BOS. That is completely different than balancing by centering our “weight” over the ball of the foot.

The most effective and efficient way to close the ankle, especially in a ski boot (!), is by using our body weight and the G forces that can be generated during a ski turn. The idea that we can meaningfully affect the degree to which our ankles are open or closed by applying muscle power (trying to raise our toes) is problematic, IMHO.

Very true.

But i don't believe the pressure should be on the back of the foot.
Instead, over the arch.

 

[JESinstr]

There are different understandings about what dorsiflexion accomplishes, and these different understandings are showing up in this thread. These differences are deep and significant. Maybe that's why we can't really can't find common ground on this topic. The thread may be doomed to get stuck in "discussions" about what dorsiflexion is.

Thoughts?

It is simply about the activation of the Tibialis Anterior which is critical in skiing. The tension that this activation brings allows a skier to create a through the arch, functional, dynamic stance for managing a sliding, twisting, bending piece of high end technology.

And it should be taught right from the get go before new skiers succumb to balancing through their heels for the rest of their skiing lives. As @markojp said. "a couple of very important inches", both for the foot and the COM.

The Tibialis Anterior is also responsible for inversion of the foot. This may be why many advocate pulling back of the inside foot during a turn. It closes the ankle and permits tipping of the inside foot all the while keeping balance centered through the arch.

 

[Steve]

FWIW, pressing on the ball of the foot opens the ankle.

I reject this statement. It is dogma that is repeated over and over. I can very easily move my ankle forward (closing my ankle) and direct pressure to the ball of the foot, as long as I don't lift up my heel.

Lifting the heel while pressing on the ball opens the ankle. However keeping pressure on the entire foot with more to the ball does not open the ankle.

 

[Tony S]

The idea that we can meaningfully affect the degree to which our ankles are open or closed by applying muscle power (trying to raise our toes) is problematic, IMHO.

For me, lifting toes is one of those "necessary but not sufficient" pieces of skiing well. Some people in this conversation are focusing on the "necessary" part, while others like you are focusing on the "not sufficient" part. They both seem correct to me.

 

[no edge]

For me, lifting toes is one of those "necessary but not sufficient" pieces of skiing well. Some people in this conversation are focusing on the "necessary" part, while others like you are focusing on the "not sufficient" part. They both seem correct to me.

Dorsiflexion is a weak move for the body to perform. Plantar flexion is stronger. It is easier to deliver strength when gas pedaling - more range of motion with power. Dorsiflexion is less responsive and slower.

The video (above) talked about tension or ready for action. I like this and it is true for me. Some skiers hang in the boot as a way to prepare for action.This is not good. I am embarrassed to say... I have done that.

But for me, mobility vs strength comes into play. I think too much mobility takes away from the effective utilization of dorsiflexion. Increasing the lift forward in the foot board adds tension and improves dorsiflexion. That tension improves my skiing a lot. More flexibility is not a good thing for people like me.

I think!?

 

[markojp]

I reject this statement. It is dogma that is repeated over and over. I can very easily move my ankle forward (closing my ankle) and direct pressure to the ball of the foot, as long as I don't lift up my heel.

Lifting the heel while pressing on the ball opens the ankle. However keeping pressure on the entire foot with more to the ball does not open the ankle.

Your umbrage seems to be amplifying my 'dogma'. Honestly, 10 minutes on the hill and I doubt we'd have much disagreement. There's a time in every turn to get our feet under us, and a time to let them move ahead a bit.