Deb Armstrong/Inside leg activity for the wedge turn

[Chris V.]

I also spend quite a bit of time on fore/aft balance.

Key.

 

[Chris V.]

also the topic of this thread is Deb’s video where she was talking specifically about inside activation in wedge and nerding out on it, so I’m not sure I understand why people are bothered by further nerding out. The video was not about pedagogy and how to teach never Evers.

I'm not bothered by nerding out, and you could well say I'm participating in it. As to the latter, there's been thread drift, and much of the discussion has previously turned to teaching never evers.

 

[Chris V.]

What were you saying about complicated? Hehehe

I said things were being way overcomplicated from the learner's point of view. And then endeavored to discuss how things could be kept simple for the learner, and why that would be effective.

Softening to the point of shortening means their balance is way off of the outside ski and probably more on the inside ski turning forces will be compromised. If you relax and sink into the inside leg, you are terribly out of balance.

The appropriate softening is, initially, a really small movement. Starting from a well-balanced wedge in motion, it doesn't take much to get a turn started.

First day skiers need to be encouraged to find balance (and pressure) on the outside leg even if their execution is not perfect and the inside ski functions as a bit of a training wheel.

Yes, the question is how to trigger that balance, and that embracing of the performance of the outside ski.

softening that leg SHOULD NOT be with a stated goal of shortening it. It should only be a cue to establish the best possible outside ski balance.

I wouldn't state any goal at all. I would just say do it, and see what happens. It should then lead directly to that outside ski balance--as long as the student doesn't resist it.

The leg can remain soft or not it won’t matter if they have transferred their balance to the outside ski then the leg won’t get shorter ( which is a good thing for wedge turns) and it won’t matter if it’s soft or not after that in fact a little tension is actually not a bad idea to avoid shortening it and moving more terribly out of balance to the inside.

Well, I disagree--it does matter. The point is to be instilling, from the get go, use of a release to initiate a turn. If the student has a stiff inside leg at initiation, it instead instills the use of pushing off the hill to initiate. And...as the turn develops, it's necessary to progressively shorten the inside leg a bit, in order to accommodate the angle of the slope lateral to the body, and maintain good balance. The steeper the slope, the more shortening is needed, because otherwise that inside leg that's well out to the side of the body, due to the wedge configuration, will get in the way. Shortening doesn't equate to leaning in. For all this, I would not, when teaching a beginner, directly say to shorten. I'd just say continue to soften, and allow balance to move increasingly to the outside foot. The shortening will result.

HOWEVER. if you are softening the inside leg in that middle balance position and continuing to keep it soft and shortening it; you will be in the act of falling away from the outside ski. ...softening that leg all by itself and maintaining it soft to the point the leg shortens will lead to this imbalance and getting worse over time. ...sure but [the initial centripetal force and change in GRF is] extremely minimal. Your COM does not need to move down to the inside like dynamic parallel turns. I hear what you’re saying but movements away from the tightrope are easily going to lose balance in a wedge turn.

Here's the thing. The force of gravity remains constant. Centripetal force varies depending not only on mass and turn radius, but also on velocity. If a skier stands in a beautiful wedge, pointed straight downhill, not moving at all, and softens one foot and leg, the skier will certainly fall over in that direction. Zero centripetal force. If the skier instead moves straight downhill at 3 inches per second, and softens one foot and leg, the skier will probably still fall over, because the centripetal force generated is so tiny. So there's some minimum downhill speed needed to make the softening work to alter the GRFs appropriately, and to start a turn in balance. And of course it also depends on the initial degree of softening. And on the initial steering angle. How much of each is enough? I don't know. But as instructors, we have a pretty good idea of what's right when we see it. And what's insufficient. Hence I get back to the point that the first requirement, when teaching a wedge-based progression, is to get the skier comfortably making a straight run in a wedge, in good balance, in control. And with a little speed.

What we want to avoid is having the student make exaggerated twisty movements initiated by upper body English, moving at a snail's pace. You'll see that kind of thing on the bunny hill every day.

They need to be encouraged to seek balance, not move away from it. Not to beat a dead horse but this is precisely why Harb insists on one footed DTP teaching method here. Sinking into an ever shortening and softening inside leg will end up horribly out of balance in a typical wedge turn especially first timers.

Seeking balance, absolutely. All of what I'm saying has an objective very much opposite to sinking onto the inside leg.

DTP could be viewed as the most extreme case of softening the inside foot and leg. It's like taking it away altogether. Harb, in particular, promotes the "phantom move" starting from the first lesson--actually picking up and tipping over the inside foot.

And part of the progression IMHO is to take the already learned concept of releasing the inside ski; and releasing it sooner while making the wedge narrower and narrower until basically it’s happening before outside BTE and they will be skiing parallel.

This is sort of moving on to another topic, but it's a good point for discussion. There are various methods for teaching a progression from wedge turns to parallel. Yes, I agree that an essential part of progress toward parallel is narrowing, if not eliminating the wedge. The narrower the wedge, the faster the speed, the smaller the initial steering angle in the transition to the new turn, the more there's a "float," but the greater the centripetal force once the new outside ski engages, and hence the less the need for a "training wheel."

 

[stevo]

Well, I disagree--it does matter. The point is to be instilling, from the get go, use of a release to initiate a turn.

For sure, but then there are many different definitions of what it means to release. We may be saying nearly the same thing here from what I can tell, but I disagree completely about shortening the inside leg in wedge turns and sustaining the soften leg in order to continue shortening it especially. That will lead to the wrong state of balance. As I have already said several times, softening the inside leg is a cue to balance on the outside...and as you have said here now finally..should be brief. I agree on that!

If the student has a stiff inside leg at initiation, it instead instills the use of pushing off the hill to initiate.

I'm certainly not endorsing a stiff inside leg. I was speaking against shortening it and sinking onto a flattened ski.

And...as the turn develops, it's necessary to progressively shorten the inside leg a bit,

No. Not in wedg turns, that will lead to imbalance. But anyway seems we are just talking past each other now, so I will bow out.

What we want to avoid is having the student make exaggerated twisty movements initiated by upper body English, moving at a snail's pace. You'll see that kind of thing on the bunny hill every day.

for sure!

Seeking balance, absolutely. All of what I'm saying has an objective very much opposite to sinking onto the inside leg.

well you say so, but if you continue to keep shortening it, then either it will be lifted in the air in a state of balance, or you will be softened out of balance to the inside, and providing the flattened ski the wrong way.

DTP could be viewed as the most extreme case of softening the inside foot and leg. It's like taking it away altogether. Harb, in particular, promotes the "phantom move" starting from the first lesson--actually picking up and tipping over the inside foot.

As I already tried to explain earlier in the thread, they lift. There is a huge difference from lifting it and relaxing it while shortening it, especially if you are talking about accomplishing a flattened ski that way. Softening and shortening is fundamentally a move that will move the CoM out of balance over the inside ski, and yes they will be sinking onto it.. Harbites expressly do NOT do that, they force their students to attempt complete balance on the outside ski first and foremost. The inside ski can then be lifted, which is completely different then softening and relaxing it. different muscle engagements, different outcomes. ...and they tip it of course, while maintaining balance on the outside ski completely because the inside ski is in the air and not available as a training wheel. What they are doing is completely different then what you are endorsing. What I am trying to explain is more of a wedge version similar as their DTP but with some wiggle room to use the inside ski,( as little as possible), as a training wheel since their outside ski balance may not be refined enough yet. They wouldn't have to actually lift a ski in the air and try to achieve perfect balance on one ski.

Understanding is not being created here, but I agree, no point in talking past each other. The never ever pedagogy discussion is not very interesting to me, so peace out.

 

[JESinstr]

As I already tried to explain earlier in the thread, they lift. There is a huge difference from lifting it and relaxing it while shortening it, especially if you are talking about accomplishing a flattened ski that way. Softening and shortening is fundamentally a move that will move the CoM out of balance over the inside ski, and yes they will be sinking onto it.. Harbites expressly do NOT do that, they force their students to attempt complete balance on the outside ski first and foremost.

Both the rudimentary initiation of the phantom move and the initiation of a beginner wedge turn happens at low velocity and pretty much in the fall line so everything done is under the force of gravity. Whether the student is picking up the ski or softening/shortening, the overwhelming desire to stay standing will cause a move to the leg that is supporting the body vs gravity. Your assumption that the COM moves out of balance with the force of record (Gravity) is incorrect IMO.
Try it. Stand up and shorten or lift one leg without falling down. My teaching concern is to watch that the student doesn't invoke upper body leaning to accomplish that balance requirement. It is a lateral shift of mass.

To the contrary, under Gravity, if you ask someone with beginner level skills to focus on first flattening the inside ski (although that will make things more efficient in terms of ski/snow interface), movements from various parts of the body would very likely send the COM out of Gravitational balance.

We don't learn lateral balance on a ski, we learn lateral balance against the edge of a ski. And as Deb said, the wedge provides that for free.

 

[stevo]

so everything done is under the force of gravity.

Yes

Whether the student is picking up the ski or softening/shortening, the overwhelming desire to stay standing will cause a move to the leg that is supporting the body vs gravity.

100% disagree. I have already explained why several times, but it seems to fall on deaf ears. "Lifting" and "softening to the degree that the leg shortens and continues shortening", are two ENTIRELY different things. Softening and shortening with the intention of causing the ski to flatten...will not accomplish that without losing your balance to the inside. to say otherwise is incorrect.

When you lift you engage entirely different muscles the body will definitely nearly automatically attempt to balance on the other foot. When you instead soften and allow the leg to shorten, the reason it is shortening is because you are still standing on it and because you re softening it, it will be sinking down. Especially this is the case if you have in your mind that somehow this movement is going to flatten your ski.

Your assumption that the COM moves out of balance with the force of record (Gravity) is incorrect IMO.

no its absolutely not incorrect. First, what you just said, is not what I have said. If you shorten the leg, you are contributing to moving your CoM by turning off your own resistance to it.. That is not merely gravity. Yes gravity is helping you to move your CoM out of balance since your lack of resistance is allowing the imbalance to worsen and as your leg shortens your CoM will be moving even further out of balance. Like falling off a tightrope.

Conversely, when you lift it, you are using a completely different mechanism, you are shifting your balance to the outside ski so that you no longer have any need to resist gravity with the inside foot. In that mode, if it shortens it will be a retracting movement...which is COMPLETELY different from softening and shortening through decreased resistance.

Try it. Stand up and shorten or lift one leg without falling down

yea I have said that already myself several times, you are arguing against me for no reason. I agree that lifting it will contribute to finding balance. however, softening and shortening will not. They are two different things.

. My teaching concern is to watch that the student doesn't invoke upper body leaning to accomplish that balance requirement. It is a lateral shift of mass.

Like it or not, they have to shift their CoM in order to shift which ski they are balanced on.

To the contrary, under Gravity, if you ask someone with beginner level skills to focus on first flattening the inside ski (although that will make things more efficient in terms of ski/snow interface),

Yes.

Not only that, but it will also be guiding them to learn and establish movements that will advance them more quickly to parallel skiing...and when they get there it will be higher quality parallel skiing.

movements from various parts of the body would very likely send the COM out of Gravitational balance.

Wrong. movements are needed when you shift which leg you are balanced on. Movements are needed, but movements in the wrong direction will definitely cause imbalance...as I have been saying for several pages now...and the act of softening and shortening the inside leg to flatten the ski will do exactly that.

If you are balanced on one ski and then you lift or soften that leg to establish the other ski as the BoS, you will immediately become out of balance unless some kind of movement of the CoM (or Bos) is made to bring the relationship back into balance again. If you move the wrong way, then your imbalance will only get worse.

Perhaps some of you need to e more specific what you mean by "softening". you don't lift your foot or even hold your foot slightly off the snow by softening anything. Softening means relaxing and allowing gravity to move your CoM for better or worse. You stop resisting it basically. Lifting and retracting are completely different.

 

[JESinstr]

Perhaps some of you need to e more specific what you mean by "softening". you don't lift your foot or even hold your foot slightly off the snow by softening anything. Softening means relaxing and allowing gravity to move your CoM for better or worse. You stop resisting it basically. Lifting and retracting are completely different.

OK reasonable request. I usually use softening/shorting in tandem and that's because it begins with a subtle move. I often use the analogy of peddling and that's a smooth, cyclic concept. But yes, the inside leg is being lifted but not with the intent to disengage the edge of the ski from the surface but instead to create room for the outside ski to build edge angles. So, the shortening of the inside leg is a 2 for. It allows pressure to be directed to the inside edge of the outside ski and enables the outside ski to do its job.

Are we getting closer?

 

[stevo]

How you just described is closer to my point of view if not spot on!!

What I don’t like about the word “softening” in this case (and especially when combined with shortening and flattening) is that this implies softening the muscles, if you are talking about softening the leg it means relaxing it. If you are almost lifting it a tiny hair that is actually a certain kind of muscle activation I can’t remember right now if that is eccentric or concentric I always forget; but anyway that is actually not a softening of the leg; if anything it is at a bare minimum a certain amount of functional tension and most likely a little bit of actual muscle - retraction, the shorter the leg ends up being, the more that would be the case.

the word softening might be applicable to the sense of how our ski is reacting with the snow, softening the touch, reducing ground reaction force, but it’s actually not a softening of the leg muscles that makes that happen, quite the opposite

and when the idea of softening the leg is combined with shortening the leg, the only way that happens that way in that combination on a soft leg is if you are out of balance and falling onto it. And if you are also attempting to hit a goal while doing this of flattening that ski, without any other information given about how the ski will go flat; the CoM fundamentally has to move that direction and your balance along with it in order to see the ski go flat. Which if you are softening the leg and allowing it to shorten then that is happening for sure; but you’d be out of balance.

Another part of the discussion related to this is how do you execute the stuff you said in your last post, which I agree with and I don’t consider that a softening of the leg but I understand the communication mis match there; so moving on from that assuming you are doing what you described in your last post, what exact physics and/or biomechanical movements will flatten that ski without going out of balance to do it?

 

[Wilhelmson]

As a student I have no idea what softening means. Ok so I do but prefer lightening little toe first, as in the drill. Whether that broadly resonates idk. I like pullback too which is a real thing to do, definey not passive softening. Does she purposefully avoid that or just semantics? More interested in hands.

 

[Gina D]

I too have a problem with softening vs hardening I think it's easier to talk about increasing pressure to the outside ski. The inside is very important, but skiing is an outside ski dominant sport. At every level of skiing you need to balance on your outside ski and drive it through the arc or turn.

I say outside ski dominant thinking first, hence my oh so incorrect advice to tell a student to push down on their left ski and see what happens. To play with alternately pressuring one ski and then the other. Like skating. You drive forward from foot to foot.

I think it's perfectly cool to use the admittedly technically incorrect, command to push on a ski. Be active, be athletic.

 

[Chris V.]

As a student I have no idea what softening means. Ok so I do but prefer lightening little toe first, as in the drill. Whether that broadly resonates idk.

Here's my perspective on this, which responds to some other people's comments, too. Maintaining good balance on the inside part of the sole of the foot (and hence on the big toe edge of the ski) requires tension in a particular muscle, the peroneus longus. Including when maintaining a good, functional wedge, skidding downhill, in which case the balance is distributed between the big toe sides of both feet. I might or might not demonstrate to a student just where this muscular tension is located. Either way, the student needs to achieve it, and will feel the result in the feet. Softening can be simply letting go of some of the tension in that muscle (in the left leg to turn left, or the right leg to turn right). There's ultimately more involved, but that release of tension acts as a trigger to start a flattening of the foot, and a modest shortening of the leg.

With a new skier, I'd like to give as few and as simple directions as possible. All I can say to doubters is try it, just say let go of a bit of that tension, and in my experience, in most cases it works. Not always. Sometimes students need to have things put to them in a different way. You try different things until you find one that works.

As JESinstr has noted, when their initial balance is disturbed, people will always do something to avoid falling over. Preferably something positive, rather than something that gets in the way of good skiing. If the skier's initial instinct is less than optimal, it's your job as an instructor to correct it.

I hope this helps.

There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat.

I like pullback too which is a real thing to do, definey not passive softening.

I very much like it, too. But that's for parallel turns, not for a beginner's first wedge turns.

 

[JESinstr]

How you just described is closer to my point of view if not spot on!!

What I don’t like about the word “softening” in this case (and especially when combined with shortening and flattening) is that this implies softening the muscles, if you are talking about softening the leg it means relaxing it. If you are almost lifting it a tiny hair that is actually a certain kind of muscle activation I can’t remember right now if that is eccentric or concentric I always forget; but anyway that is actually not a softening of the leg; if anything it is at a bare minimum a certain amount of functional tension and most likely a little bit of actual muscle - retraction, the shorter the leg ends up being, the more that would be the case.

the word softening might be applicable to the sense of how our ski is reacting with the snow, softening the touch, reducing ground reaction force, but it’s actually not a softening of the leg muscles that makes that happen, quite the opposite

and when the idea of softening the leg is combined with shortening the leg, the only way that happens that way in that combination on a soft leg is if you are out of balance and falling onto it. And if you are also attempting to hit a goal while doing this of flattening that ski, without any other information given about how the ski will go flat; the CoM fundamentally has to move that direction and your balance along with it in order to see the ski go flat. Which if you are softening the leg and allowing it to shorten then that is happening for sure; but you’d be out of balance.

Another part of the discussion related to this is how do you execute the stuff you said in your last post, which I agree with and I don’t consider that a softening of the leg but I understand the communication mis match there; so moving on from that assuming you are doing what you described in your last post, what exact physics and/or biomechanical movements will flatten that ski without going out of balance to do it?

I have many times voiced the issue that velocity and which transitional force of record (Gravity vs Centripetal) influences how moves are made. I get very little acknowledgement on this critical aspect of turn creation from forum members as we discuss technique IMO.

If I am expecting to be dealing with a gravity-based transition, then I need to be moving so as to be balanced with gravity and therefore my mass moves laterally to the inside edge of the new outside ski or in the case of an ILE transition, to the outside edge of the new outside ski. If I am dealing with Centripetal to Centripetal transitions I am in agreement with your views.

In wedge configuration under gravity, I feel the priority is to get the outside ski to execute the carving process. Unless the student is in a ridiculously wide stance, I don't see the inside interfering PROVIDED the inside leg is being shortened. Flattening and parallel will be addressed once the student has a strong carving base to skid into.

 

[stevo]

Nothing I have said is unique to gravity based or centripetal based.

I understand you are saying you feel there is no benefit to flattening the inside ski in a wedge turn but I would encourage you to play around with that more. On this point we do disagree.

Unless you literally lift the inside ski off the snow, which is not good wedge skiing; then that edge will absolutely gouge the snow on the wrong side snd interfere. Furthermore, in order to transition to parallel skiing this movement pattern needs to be established. As I said before, wedge progression is something I also prefer but absolutely only if it’s done in a way that will transition quickly and correctly to parallel skiing.

I believe we have found some common ground here and that is good, but also a wall of disagreement that I don’t expect to change so I have nothing further to add. Anyway I just keep repeating myself so there is no need

 

[JESinstr]

I'm just saying that, in beginner wedge progression, flattening the inside ski is not a priority. Thats all. The world will not end either way.