Deb Armstrong/Inside leg activity for the wedge turn

[JESinstr]

She may not have said anything about flattening the inside ski, but I am. We differ in this point it seems jeinstr, its counter productive to keep the inside ski on the BTE. Doing so is a braking maneuver and contributes nothing to the turn in fact it detracts.

I don't know from where you derive your positions, but I have never said nor do I teach to intentionally keep the inside ski on the BTE. I focus on establishing the carving process on the outside ski and job 1 is to direct pressure to the inside edge of the new outside ski (PSIA Fundamental #2). Focusing on flattening the new inside ski does enable easier rotation but the mechanics of the outside ski does not suffer as long as you are removing inside pressure (blockage).

I agree about softening the inside leg also but this is a subtle move. There is no need to drastically shorten the inside leg because you are basically upright. You still need the balance point to move towards the outside ski somehow and shortening the inside leg will move your CoM away from the outside ski without also bringing in angulation

You bet it's a subtle move but not a hard one to invoke. And although subtle, it is the beginning of a vertical leg process that does indeed grow in dynamics (including tipping) as we get into the belly of the turn. It's just not leading the way IMO. In the vid above, Armstrong's inside leg is very subtle but it really shows in the totality of her turn mechanics. BTW I can find vids of HH picking up his inside foot. Talk about drastic shortening...

the ultimate goal is parallel skiing, with some people the very same day. Some people may need a few days but we should be teaching them movements in the feet and legs that will take them down the right path to that. Many of them we won’t get to teach for day 2 and 3; yea?

I just finished a university group last week. I had six never-evers for 3 1-hour lessons.
First hour: explained the shape ski and what it was designed to do. This is important because it helps connect the mental with the physical. We then developed the carving skill set as describe by Deb in OP video. The students were then given a couple of hours to practice.
2nd hour. Went from wedge to rudimentary parallel aka skidded turns. As I have stated before, it is so much easier to transition from a solid base to a skidding condition vs the other way around. I encourage them to embrace the imbalance knowing that they have the ability to reach a stable edge.
3rd hour (following day) instilled dynamics into to their turns and skied medium blue terrain.

i do agree with you that the point of this is to establish a sensation of a carving ski and circular travel without the single ski balance requirement, however it’s critically important not to instill braking wedge movements and also we should be guiding them towards the single ski balance goal even if we aren’t talking about it yet.

No argument here. Just keep in mind that speed control achieved by pushing out one's heels is different than speed control achieved by managing two skis trying to carve into each other through a center balanced stance. Also, when we talk balance there is a difference between balancing against (gravity) vs balancing against (Centripetal).

also we can look around at a great many skiers even at higher levels with wedge entries to their turns, sometimes subtle, sometimes not. This is due to lack of focus on tipping the inside ski. In parallel skiing tipping the outside ski does not come for free like in the wedge where they push the tail out. But if that becomes your go to move then it can de habilitate you for years. Then you will end up heel pushing or twisting with rotary in order to establish edge angle and that will be a problem. Perhaps you feel that heel pushing or using rotary is the acceptable and preferred way to establish outside ski tipping but I do not. And that is primarily how wedge itis will get baked in.

So this is the divide you and I can't seem to bridge. I am NOT anti tipping. Since you are addressing transition in the above, the priority of my release is a flexing/shortening of the legs followed by a floating of my feet under over out and away as my mass moves in direction of travel. Tipping happens as a result of this transition technique and being that the old outside leg soon to be the new inside leg has the longest vertical travel, that action needs to be the priority especially at lower speed.

alternatively, if a focus is made on flattening the inside ski, this will rather quickly develop into parallel skiing and it’s already the right needed movement even if it takes a few days to find the balance.

it also turns out that the focus of flattening the inside ski will make your wedge demos more beautiful. Try it.

but you will find out pretty quickly that doing them this way is just a hair away from easy parallel turns, just by tipping the inside ski earlier and even more. And meanwhile the outside ski will be doing the carving action you are taking about the whole time

Only if you are in the fall line on a nice flat surface and in a narrow wedge. But that's not reality and if you preemptively tilt and lead with the inside my experience is that you run the risk of falling to the inside of the turn. This is the same issue I have with the term "topple". I am not falling into the turn, I am riding the ski into the turn.

 

[JESinstr]

Fair enough, but isn't pressuring the outside ski a fundamental part of all skiing? You know lots more than I do about teaching Erik, so don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging your experience. Could you elaborate? That would help us with our grandson.

PSIA fundamental #2 Control pressure from ski to ski and direct pressure toward the outside ski.

To be more precise, it is the inside edge of the outside ski but no matter what, the intent is to pressure (bend) the ski as part of the carving process, not brace against it as many do and indeed the wedge is very susceptible to that misuse.

The key is to be center balanced through the arch and not through the heels. (PSIA Fundamental #1)

I coach a group of 6 -10 year olds in our mountain's jr racing program on Saturday mornings. It is very hard to get kids whose Center of Mass is so close to the ground to not move to their heels especially as they head into the belly of the turn. But that needs to be a constant focus.

I am impressed however how many have picked up the bicycling movements that Deb does in the OP video.

To get them (and many adults) into parallel, I apply a "mental image" and "vocal assist". I tell them to imagine being on a rollercoaster and as they round the top and head down they yell WHEEEEEEE! and let their ski's slide into the bottom of the turn as they embrace the imbalance. The results have been impressive. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition.

 

[stevo]

I don't know from where you derive your positions, but I have never said nor do I teach to intentionally keep the inside ski on the BTE. I focus on establishing the carving process on the outside ski and job 1 is to direct pressure to the inside edge of the new outside ski (PSIA Fundamental #2). Focusing on flattening the new inside ski does enable easier rotation but the mechanics of the outside ski does not suffer as long as you are removing inside pressure (blockage).

Great to hear, excpet I will add one more thing to that, which is that getting the inside ski flat doesn't just encourage rotation. It will end up being rotation while its flat for sure while skiing in a wedge, but the particular bio mechanical movement that is being learned is what matters, which will eventually lead to getting that ski on its LTE and having nothing to do with rotation. This has to do with inside foot and leg activation. Softening it yes and also tipping it towards the LTE in order to flatten it for now. and later they will go beyone flat to the LTE...and earlier...and then they'll be rockin' parallel turns. I personally found this to be a crucial skill also while demonstrating the good ol' slow basic parallel PSIA demos that have zero wedge-entry. The dynamics are not there to "sail across"

You bet it's a subtle move but not a hard one to invoke. And although subtle, it is the beginning of a vertical leg process that does indeed grow in dynamics (including tipping) as we get into the belly of the turn. It's just not leading the way IMO. In the vid above, Armstrong's inside leg is very subtle but it really shows in the totality of her turn mechanics. BTW I can find vids of HH picking up his inside foot. Talk about drastic shortening...

Picking up the inside ski to shorten the leg is completely different then softening and shortening it while leaning on it as the training wheel that it is in wedge turns. one way contributes to balance on the outside leg, the other way detracts.

I think you and I agree emphatically on the key point about developing a feel for the carving ski following a circular path, as opossed to what I often saw a lot from peers, which was a rush to pivot the skis a lot, emphasize hockey stop moves, J turns, etc.. in order to ski french fry parallel turns as early as possible without having developed a feeling or understanding of a carving ski and how it can do all the work. On this, I think we can agree a lot!

Harb essentially tries to teach the same thing, but he tries to bypass the wedge progression by establishing one footed balance on the outside ski. He does not teach a wedge progression at all. He admitted openly on the recent interview he did that while they teach a non-wedge based progression the truth is that some percentage of skiers will come out after 2 hours skiing slow parallel turns already and some will still end up in a wedge...but that their wedge turns will still be based on the same attempt at balancing on the outside ski and activating the inside leg/foot. that is their philosophy, go for one footed skiing and if they end up wedged on a training wheel while trying to do that, for a short while, so be it.

The wedge progression approach is a lower barrier to entry in my view, it's much easier to do and some people really need that. However, great care needs to be held in the details in order to make sure they are learning the correct biomechanical movements that will continue to encourage them to get to high quality parallel skiing, with balance on the outside ski as soon as possible and early activation of the inside foot and leg. Harb's way is to do it the slightly steeper learning curve, some will get it right away and some won't but at least learned the right movements. But their philosophy is that it's too easy to learn the wrong movements while adopting a wedge progression and truthfully that is in fact often the case he's not wrong IMHO. It's because of the way the wedge progression is often taught that this is the case, the wrong movements are used, movements which are destructive to high quality parallel skiing. But I still feel a wedge progression can be used for practical reasons, if done with great care on the biomechanical movements used. If not, then it can in fact become detrimental,

But I'm also kind of the opinion that to a certain degree I don't care if it's detrimental even. Because most new skiers will never do anything other then puddle around with their intermediate buddies on blue runs for many years and will avoid moguls, etc. They are not that motivated to become expert skiers and never will. So my job as a ski instructor was to teach them how to stop, teach them how to turn, teach them how to ride a chair lift safely. Teach them how to choose a curvy S Shaped path down the slope..then say Bon Voyage have a great time! And off they go, they probably won't take another lesson again any time soon if ever. It is what it is. Eventually if they are motivated they can get more into it and work towards becoming expert even if it means unlearning and relearning things. So be it. I think it's more important that they have fun and are safe then learn the exact movements of expert skiers. However.. if it's possible to teach them correct movements while also showing them easily how to be safe and have fun on day one...then I'm all for it!! the Devil is in the details.

No argument here. Just keep in mind that speed control achieved by pushing out one's heels is different than speed control achieved by managing two skis trying to carve into each other through a center balanced stance. Also, when we talk balance there is a difference between balancing against (gravity) vs balancing against (Centripetal).

Yea I don't at all like the concept of embracing 2 skis carving into each other. Only for the very first straight run to a braking wedge stop, bare survival technique before taking them to any slope at all perhaps. Once we're talking about turning, then no way, flattening that inside ski so that its not carving into the other one, and by the way...in a turn..its not going to ever be carving into the other ski...its tipped the wrong direction for the direction you are turning be carving at all. its probably gouging on the wrong side, not carving anything. It's only doing that dual carving action if and when you are straight running and attempting to use a wedge to slow yourself down like a slow plow...an action that should not be emphasized! that is wedge braking and will lead to wedge itis...especially with kids. They need to learn to make turns and use line to control speed...and flattening that inside ski needs to happen to facilitate that.

So this is the divide you and I can't seem to bridge. I am NOT anti tipping

. Since you are addressing transition in the above, the priority of my release is a flexing/shortening of the legs followed by a floating of my feet under over out and away as my mass moves in direction of travel. Tipping happens as a result of this transition technique and being that the old outside leg soon to be the new inside leg has the longest vertical travel, that action needs to be the priority especially at lower speed.

You lost me there don't fully understand what you wrote, but I think I hear you saying that once a skier has dynamics that don't exist while wedge skiing, then their CoM will sail across onto the downhill side that will facilitate tipping of the skis. yes?

to some degree that is true, but that is a whole 'nother topic related to refined balance. But clearly at lower levels of skiing that dyanmic does not exist, particularly at wedge turn level. The main point about inside foot tipping and leg activation is to avoid wedge entries...it's a way to establish balance and tipping on the outside ski in a refined way without a wedge entry. if you haven't bought into that idea by now I will probably not be able to talk you into it though. But my point is that this idea and bio-mechanical movement can be taught on day#1 even with wedge progression as the focus.

 

[stevo]

oh also I think its relevant to add that I am in no way at all even remotely a fan of the "old school" wedge "progression", which included first developing and mastering linked wedge turns, followed by various forms of stem christies etc towards the eventually goal matched parallel skiing. that is the wrong way.

For me a wedge start, is merely a very short term stepping stone towards parallel skiing and will not involve any thing whatsoever about stem turns and so forth..it will simply involve drills and experiences to establish balance on the outside ski while tipping inside ski sooner and more.

In the case of Deb's video I got the feeling she was doing a wedge-experience exercise with already accomplished skiers...which could be for entirely different purposes..

 

[Henry]

I understand little of what Deb is saying..."window something"...nor why she teaches much of what she does. That's OK, I don't need to know.

I really hesitate teaching anything that must be un-learned. "Learning" something is creating new neural connections in the brain. This is our so-called muscle memory. I don't want to create muscle memory that must be overcome to proceed to the next step in any process.

I've taught first day skiers in all day classes, 4 hours total. By the end of the first day about half, usually the more athletic ones, are making elementary parallel turns on the beginner slope. I watch them progress through wedge christies to parallel without knowing that they are doing a defined step in the process and without forming that muscle memory of a movement they'll soon have to forget.

Instead of the word "pressure," which is a force on a unit area and you really mean "force," I tell them to put their weight on the outside ski. I tell them to take their weight off the inside ski. I tell them to move so their zipper pull is over the logo on their outside ski (and we know no one ever moves as much as they think they do). This gets them twisting the body toward the outside of the turn to prevent rotation moves and gets their weight over the front of the outside ski. Surprise...the ski turns them. On their first day.

 

[stevo]

I missed this comment above, and want to make one very important comment about the following thing you said, which I think is the crux of your disagreement with me about flattening the inside ski.

if you preemptively tilt and lead with the inside my experience is that you run the risk of falling to the inside of the turn. This is the same issue I have with the term "topple". I am not falling into the turn, I am riding the ski into the turn.

So bravo on your comment about "toppling", I agree 100%. That's why I mentioned "more refined balance" in my previous response to you. In order to "ride" that outside ski into the turn, we need to have refined balance, not falling away from balance on it, etc..

So your contention is that flattening the inside ski, or even tipping it further onto its LTE; will lead to falling out of balance to the inside. And this is exactly where the fine difference is in this discussion and why this move matters so much. This is where the rubber meets the road.

First...no that is incorrect to say that tipping that inside ski towards its LTE will necessarily cause you to be out of balance to the inside. What causes you to fall inside out of balance is moving your CoM too far inside. and the relevant skill here is tipping the ski towards its LTE while also retaining the balance of your CoM over your outside ski!

Can you see how learning to tip the inside ski towards its LTE, without moving the CoM across quite as much is the crucial skill for refined balance while tipping your skis onto downhill edges?

Shortening the inside leg, on the other hand...does in fact move the CoM in that direction. that is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Unless you have centripetal forces to balance against, shortening the leg puts you out of balance to the inside, makes no difference whether the ski is being tipped or not tipped at the same time.

 

[JESinstr]

Can you see how learning to tip the inside ski towards its LTE, without moving the CoM across quite as much is the crucial skill for refined balance while tipping your skis onto downhill edges?

If you feel that way then why did you say above " Harb essentially tries to teach the same thing, but he tries to bypass the wedge progression by establishing one footed balance on the outside ski. " ? That's what I don't get. We don't carve on the outside ski, we carve on the inside edge of the outside ski. Trying to get someone to dynamically center balance on a flat sliding ski can be an arduous task.

Shortening the inside leg, on the other hand...does in fact move the CoM in that direction. that is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Unless you have centripetal forces to balance against, shortening the leg puts you out of balance to the inside, makes no difference whether the ski is being tipped or not tipped at the same time.

Centripetal force is not the force of record for beginners traveling a low speed in a wedge. In this environment they are governed by the force of gravity for upright balance. Under gravity, softening (lifting the pedal) of the inside ski will cause a small lateral shift to the new outside ski. The created differential in ski pressures will initiate the carving process. When upper mass moves laterally, we want the jacket zipper to remain vertical vs a tipping of the torso. Another good reason to learn within the confines of the wedge configuration.

BTW at higher speed, what you are claiming in terms of leading turns with a tipping of the inside ski appears to have very little impact on turn shape. Here is Diana. She seems to be able to lead with her knee in her left turns (while picking the ski up) but strangely not in her right turns yet I see the carving process of her outside ski not affected.
And I am not cherry picking. I see multiple instances in many videos. If you could just admit that the picture on the right is just as good as the picture on the left then you and I will be at peace, move on and quit putting people to sleep.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Fair enough, but isn't pressuring the outside ski a fundamental part of all skiing? You know lots more than I do about teaching Erik, so don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging your experience. Could you elaborate? That would help us with our grandson.

Thankfully it’s not nearly as hard as this thread would make it. I’d just show your grandkid how his skis have side cut and that the ski wants to follow it. When he is in a wedge (see above about how gentle the wedge can be) the two skis are turning against each other. If he just flattens one ski “do this” the other ski will turn him. Tell him the skis are for steering and not braking, they can’t do both. Show him how turn shape can control his speed.

 

[stevo]

If you feel that way then why did you say above " Harb essentially tries to teach the same thing, but he tries to bypass the wedge progression by establishing one footed balance on the outside ski. " ? That's what I don't get. We don't carve on the outside ski, we carve on the inside edge of the outside ski. Trying to get someone to dynamically center balance on a flat sliding ski can be an arduous task.

You are misunderstanding both what I have written and what Harb is known to teach. They do not endorse balancing on a flat outside ski and neither was I suggesting that. They are saying the same thing you are in terms of using the carving action of the outside ski to make the turn on a circular path, rather then pivoting. if you truly understood what they are doing, you would see that you're not as far apart from them as you might think at least in that regard.

Harb's camp wants to do it with the inside ski lifted or lightened and no wedging. You and I want to do it with a wedge for never evers. And as it turns out, apparently some of their never evers end up skiing wedge by the end of the day after all.

Centripetal force is not the force of record for beginners traveling a low speed in a wedge. In this environment they are governed by the force of gravity for upright balance.

That is exactly why shortening the inside leg will put them out of balance. By out of balance, I mean falling off of the outside ski. Read what I wrote earlier again if its still not clear.

Under gravity, softening (lifting the pedal) of the inside ski will cause a small lateral shift to the new outside ski.

First, transferring pressure and transferring pressure with balance are not the same thing.

Second: softening, shortening and lifting are three different things. If you lift the inside ski, you will definitely be prompted to establish balance on the new outside ski, BECAUSE the skier will fundamentally have to make certain CoM balancing movements to avoid falling down, which will direct their balance to the outside ski. and that move will involve shortening it that way too.

If you alternatively soften and shorten it without lifting it, you may or may not transfer pressure or balance. How you shorten it depends on the above, if you shorten by softening without transferring balance to the new outside ski through CoM balancing movements, then you will simply sink onto the inside ski and no transfer occurs and if anything you probably moved the CoM more inside out of balance.

I think you are recognizing a danger, but you are blaming it on foot flattening/tipping, which I say is inaccurate. Balance has to do with the relationship of CoM to BoS. And I will ask you again, do you understand why its important to develop the ability to tip the feet without moving the CoM out of balance? Softening the leg moves the CoM. Tipping the inside foot to the LTE may or may not do that, depending on how you do it. Obviously the goal I am suggesting is to do it without throwing your CoM down the hill. Ie.. in balance.

this can be done with wedge turns also, and will improve your wedge turn quality in addition to leading them much closer to good quality parallel skiing sooner then later.

 

[JESinstr]

UGH! I added the "Make Complicated" line in my signature in your honor.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Watching those older skiers that I hang with building the wedge turn back into their style scares me. Plan on keeping the edges in play as long as possible.

 

[Chris V.]

I can't shake the feeling that you guys are way overcomplicating what needs to happen in wedge turns, from the learner's point of view.

I've said it before, if we're talking solely about a wedge-based progression, the beginner's greatest challenge isn't making turns, it's just going straight in the wedge while maintaining good balance and posture! Staying in balance while standing on a platform that's continuously skidding away is not something within the typical student's everyday experience. Success requires holding appropriate tension in muscles, starting at the level of the feet, and moving up the body, to maintain ski edge angles, wedge angle and width, ankle flexion, and balance centered fore-aft. Meanwhile, the skier must continually make tiny adjustments in muscular tension to respond to variations in the snow surface, and the skis' reactions in the nature of small decreases and increases in friction.

Technically speaking, what the skier experiences directly is the ground reaction force. That's what the skier needs to balance against. When traveling straight in a wedge, yes, the GRF, net of short term fluctuations due to changes in friction, stems only from gravity.

Once the student can maintain a straight wedge run in balance, to start a turn, it's sufficient to ask the student to slightly "soften" one foot and leg. That I consider a concept the student will find perfectly understandable, by itself. It's just a partial giving up of the muscular tension that the student has been working to achieve. Won't this softening result, simultaneously, in a slight shortening of the inside leg, and slight flattening of the inside ski? Without us saying more. Now that has the immediate effect of creating an IMBALANCE in the GRFs acting on the two skis. And then...an advantage of the wedge is that it has PRE-created an outside ski steering angle, outside ski edging, angulation relative to the outside ski, placement of the center of mass inside the outside ski, and upper-lower body separation relative to the outside ski.

The immediate result of the above is that the outside ski starts to turn. Unlike in a parallel turn, there is no "float." The turning action IMMEDIATELY results in the addition of centripetal force. Yes, in a slow turn its amplitude may be small, but it nevertheless results in a significant CHANGE in not only the amplitudes but also in the DIRECTIONS of the total GRFs the skier experiences through right and left feet. This allows the skier to move into a NEW DYNAMIC balance, so that the initial softening of the inside half doesn't lead to a fall. Furthermore, as the skis start to move out of the fall line, across the hill, the distribution of gravity's contribution to the GRFs acting on the two feet changes, both in amplitude and direction, further promoting a balance on the outside foot.

Yes, it's essential that the skier embrace the outside ski's built-in capability to create circular travel. Some of the inappropriate reactions that will destroy this performance are shying away from the natural weight shift, leaning to the inside, pushing away the outside heel, flattening the outside ski, seeking excessive friction from the inside ski, or failing to maintain balance adequately forward. (At this stage of learning, we want strong engagement of the tip of the outside ski, creating an at least somewhat skidded turn, even though with the mechanics that will support carving.)

Softening is not a brief movement that happens only in the turn initiation! The change in the slope relative to the skier's path as the turn develops requires a continuing shortening of the inside leg, and flattening of the inside ski, so the softening needs to be progressive. And the pace of that progression controls the radius of the resulting turn.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

flatten the inside ski, skis start sliding, look where you want to go. simple.

 

[stevo]

It only got complicated because silly questions were being asked and argumentation created. Read my earlier post, I agree it’s not complicated to teach or even execute but if people want to argue over biomechanics and physics then it can and will get complicated for ski instructors to engage in dialog. you don’t have to participate if that is not for you.

Read my original post which somehow garnered argument: flatter skis, flatten the inside more by tipping it towards LTE, I used to like to say “drop the gate”. Establish balance as much possible on outside ski even though the wedge allows inside to be training wheel but don’t overdo upper body movements to outside or inside, you’re mostly in the middle. It’s not hard. But what often gets overlooked, that I tried to endorse here is flattening the inside ski.

also the topic of this thread is Deb’s video where she was talking specifically about inside activation in wedge and nerding out on it, so I’m not sure I understand why people are bothered by further nerding out. The video was not about pedagogy and how to teach never Evers. If it’s not your thing there are 30 other threads today you can go banter in

@Chris V. i will respond more directly to some points you made when I’m at my computer later.

 

[Gina D]

Softening the ski in the direction you want to turn works.
For some the opposite is needed, particularly younger students.
Hence (god forgive me for saying this) push on the left ski.

 

[stevo]

Success requires holding appropriate tension in muscles,

i agree. However just want to point your again Deb’s video was not a presentation about how to teach a wedge progression to beginners, though the information there could be used to help derive a learning progression. Her video presentation was to explore what happens with inside leg during wedge turns, intended audience is experienced skiers.

Technically speaking, what the skier experiences directly is the ground reaction force.

What were you saying about complicated? Hehehe

That's what the skier needs to balance against. When traveling straight in a wedge, yes, the GRF, net of short term fluctuations due to changes in friction, stems only from gravity.

agree

Once the student can maintain a straight wedge run in balance, to start a turn, it's sufficient to ask the student to slightly "soften" one foot and leg. That I consider a concept the student will find perfectly understandable, by itself. It's just a partial giving up of the muscular tension that the student has been working to achieve. Won't this softening result, simultaneously, in a slight shortening of the inside leg, and slight flattening of the inside ski?

this is where I hope you will think more about it. Softening to the point of shortening means their balance is way off of the outside ski and probably more on the inside ski turning forces will be compromised. If you relax and sink into the inside leg, you are terribly out of balance. First day skiers need to be encouraged to find balance (and pressure) on the outside leg even if their execution is not perfect and the inside ski functions as a bit of a training wheel. Their very first turn should be about getting pressure to the outside ski and if you are falling onto the inside ski you will not be achieving that for very long.

softening that leg SHOULD NOT be with a stated goal of shortening it. It should only be a cue to establish the best possible outside ski balance. The leg can remain soft or not it won’t matter if they have transferred their balance to the outside ski then the leg won’t get shorter ( which is a good thing for wedge turns) and it won’t matter if it’s soft or not after that in fact a little tension is actually not a bad idea to avoid shortening it and moving more terribly out of balance to the inside.

furthermore this is completely separate issue from the issue of flattening it or not. In fact if you allow your balance and pressure to move towards a flattened inside ski you will not like the result

Without us saying more. Now that has the immediate effect of creating an IMBALANCE in the GRFs acting on the two skis. And then...an advantage of the wedge is that it has PRE-created an outside ski steering angle, outside ski edging, angulation relative to the outside ski, placement of the center of mass inside the outside ski, and upper-lower body separation relative to the outside ski.

yes but the GRF only continues as long as there is pressure which means you need your balance point to ideally be on the outside ski or at least somewhat close to it. It could be in the middle for never evers and that would basically be evenly weighted skis so at least the outside ski still would be getting GRF?

HOWEVER. if you are softening the inside leg in that middle balance position and continuing to keep it soft and shortening it; you will be in the act of falling away from the outside ski. Which is like falling off a tight rope. You will lose GRF on the outside ski very quickly.

The immediate result of the above is that the outside ski starts to turn. Unlike in a parallel turn, there is no "float."

There might be kind of a float period if you consider it related to disconnecting and releasing the inside ski by flattening it. Yes it will be overlapping with already established steering angle of outside ski, so I get what you mean. Ideally with parallel turns that release happens BEFORE engaging the BTE of outside ski. With wedge turns it’s after. And part of the progression IMHO is to take the already learned concept of releasing the inside ski; and releasing it sooner while making the wedge narrower and narrower until basically it’s happening before outside BTE and they will be skiing parallel.

The turning action IMMEDIATELY results in the addition of centripetal force. Yes, in a slow turn its amplitude may be small, but it nevertheless results in a significant CHANGE in not only the amplitudes but also in the DIRECTIONS of the total GRFs the skier experiences through right and left feet. This allows the skier to move into a NEW DYNAMIC balance, so that the initial softening of the inside half doesn't lead to a fall.

sure but it’s extremely minimal. Your COM does not need to move down to the inside like dynamic parallel turns. I hear what you’re saying but movements away from the tightrope are easily going to lose balance in a wedge turn. They need to be encouraged to seek balance, not move away from it. Not to beat a dead horse but this is precisely why Harb insists on one footed DTP teaching method here. Sinking into an ever shortening and softening inside leg will end up horribly out of balance in a typical wedge turn especially first timers.

Furthermore, as the skis start to move out of the fall line, across the hill, the distribution of gravity's contribution to the GRFs acting on the two feet changes, both in amplitude and direction, further promoting a balance on the outside foot.

it definitely helps for sure but still they don’t need their inside leg to be shortening much. If anything when they turn out if the fall line the gravity direction will contribute to outside ski balance and there will be no need at all to do any softening or shortening, and the point is, softening and shortening that leg SHOULD NOT be the method of specifically flattening that ski.

Yes, it's essential that the skier embrace the outside ski's built-in capability to create circular travel. Some of the inappropriate reactions that will destroy this performance are shying away from the natural weight shift, leaning to the inside, pushing away the outside heel, flattening the outside ski, seeking excessive friction from the inside ski, or failing to maintain balance adequately forward. (At this stage of learning, we want strong engagement of the tip of the outside ski, creating an at least somewhat skidded turn, even though with the mechanics that will support carving.)

Yes

Softening is not a brief movement that happens only in the turn initiation! The change in the slope relative to the skier's path as the turn develops requires a continuing shortening of the inside leg, and flattening of the inside ski, so the softening needs to be progressive. And the pace of that progression controls the radius of the resulting turn.

this is where I think you are wrong for wedge turns. Flattening it is achieved using biomechanical movements to evert the ankle and move the knee out. If you move your CoM that direction for the reason to flatten the ski you will be going out of balance with poor quality wedge turns and the wrong movement pattern for transitioning to parallel asap.

softening that leg all by itself and maintaining it soft to the point the leg shortens will lead to this imbalance and getting worse over time. The only reason to soften it is essentially to cue your brain and body to find balance on the outside ski. If you instruct them to shorten that leg by continually keeping it soft and allowing it to shorten and cause the ski to flatten that way, they will be out of balance and learning the wrong movements. This the kind of thing that gives wedge progressions a bad name according to some.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Softening the ski in the direction you want to turn works.
For some the opposite is needed, particularly younger students.
Hence (god forgive me for saying this) push on the left ski.

Disagree. Children can point their skis in the direction they want to go.
Pushing on the left ski to turn right is unnecessary.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

If you ask beginner skiers to soften or flex their new inside leg as they go around the corner of the turn, the weight goes to the new outside ski without having to talk about directing pressure to the outside ski.

 

[stevo]

If you ask beginner skiers to soften or flex their new inside leg as they go around the corner of the turn, the weight goes to the new outside ski without having to talk about directing pressure to the outside ski.

Not for long if they are out of balance. I would encourage you to cue them to both softening it AND finding balance in the outside ski.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Not for long if they are out of balance. I would encourage you to cue them to both softening it AND finding balance in the outside ski.

I talk a lot about alignment, where the weight goes etc. I also spend quite a bit of time on fore/aft balance. It works.