Comparison Review Crappy Snow Test: Stockli Laser AX, Blizzard 2018 Brahma, Fischer Pro MTN 86, CURV DTX

[Ron]

@TimF heading up early again this AM if you are around. it will be a short one for me though. Good news is the sun is warm and the beer is cold over at slopeside. ....

look for the Stocklis, Black jacket, blue/green pants and brown helmet.

 

[SBrown]

@TimF heading up early again this AM if you are around. it will be a short one for me though. Good news is the sun is warm and the beer is cold over at slopeside. ....

look for the Stocklis, Black jacket, blue/green pants and brown helmet.

You sound like a bruise!

Have fun out there

 

[Ron]

Practicing. Wait till i post my post op hip pics.

 

[Ron]

Stockli porn AX's mounted with Fischer RC Z13's. Yes totally matched but I really love the stand height and the free flex.

 

[Lorenzzo]

^^^ I have the same bindings on my 2016-s. Had them out yesterday and they just rocked in every condition and there were many.

How long will you have to keep them for a personal best length of ownership/use?

 

[Ron]

that would be 4 years then

 

[TPJ]

I agree with Epic that Dawg isn't giving the PM 86 enough credit for being a great off trail ski. I have about 80 days on mine and am very happy with them. Today was a very mixed bag of spring conditions deep slush, isothermal rotten crud, and very wet powder. I have a lot of confidence in this ski.

 

[bbinder]

Got on the Laser AX today. Me: 63 yo male; level 8ish skier - my preference is 3D conditions, but I have working on technique in all conditions for years. My othe ski are an old pair of FIS slalom skis and Fischer Motive 95s.

We were skiing Sunday River this weekend. The conditions during my demo were typical spring conditions: hardish machine groomed snow in the morning softening up with slushies and crud piles by 1pm.

My first 3 turns on these skis were a disaster. The I realized that I had my weight on my heels and assumed (and confirmed letter) that the ramp angle on these demo bindings was less than my usual bindings. Once I compensated for this, I began to figure out the skis. They really did perform according to expectations: short slow and fast turns - check; long turns slow and fast - check; bumps - check; very easy to get them to do anything that I wanted them to do. Adding tip pressure and they pulled predictably into the turn. Release the edge and launch into the next turn. These ultimately felt very natural and precise. Yet when I myself was less than precise, they let me know, gently, that I was about to get into trouble and gave me plenty of time to correct before I got into trouble.

Overall, I liked these skis a lot. But I am not sure that I like them hundreds of dollars more compared to some other skis... I would love to try them on the same day as the Pro Mountain 86, and I still want to get on the Titan. FWIW, when I got on the Motive 95 at the end of the day, I found them just as fun and easy going edge to edge, but the tip was definitely less precise.

 

[TimF]

Stockli porn AX's mounted with Fischer RC Z13's. Yes totally matched but I really love the stand height and the free flex.

View attachment 21292

Hmm, alot of me wonders if a free flex would have been a better choice. Oh well, already mounted up. I'm sure they will ski fine.

 

[Ron]

Hmm, alot of me wonders if a free flex would have been a better choice. Oh well, already mounted up. I'm sure they will ski fine.

I'm sure they will be just fine. At least the Aaattack has a 17mm stand and are flat. I still encourage others to go a little higher and I have to believe the FreeFlex does help a little. just use the 4mm shim (thanks @Philpug for that suggestion, @GregMerz was adamant about the FF )

 

[NESkiBum]

@dawgcatching How does the Stormrider 88 compare to the Brahma and Pro Mountain since they are similar width. And how different is it to the AX?

 

[ski otter 2]

Stockli porn AX's mounted with Fischer RC Z13's. Yes totally matched but I really love the stand height and the free flex.

View attachment 21292

Hi, @Ron. I'm thinking strongly of getting either the 183 or 175 AXs, soon. And I have to ask you, as if you know all things AX, does the AX feel surprisingly light underfoot and carving, or heavier, more like a charger ski? (I've heard rumors that next year's yellowish AX - 18/19 - may be lighter weight, with less titanol, but mostly with the same abilities. Not sure.) I've been using longer skis than usual for both groomer and off-piste/bumps, and suspect the 183 might want a bit different strategy but be very good off piste and in bumps, not to mention the added umph on groomers. Your thoughts?

Even more, I'm wondering about bindings for the AX. I've noticed there's a real ease to edging/carving with a race binding like the Fischer/Head/Tyrolia freeflexes, but I've always used them with race plates, on skis that are at least cheater race skis, meant to evoke that feel. So I wonder what it's like having them w/o plate on an all mountain/frontside bias ski like the AX. Do they hinder things off piste or in bumps at all? Change the feel? So I'd be very interested on your impressions of the Freeflex for that all mountain and off piste AX.

At the same time, I've noticed the fun contrast between the race feel and the close-to-the-snow, immediacy and lightweight feel of something like a Tyrolia Attack13 or a Marker Griffin 13 - the latter two maybe helpful in bumps, but also more informal fun on groomers, a nice contrast to a race binding/race plate in a multi-ski quiver. For me, the AX is more of a relaxed but high performance DailyDriver type ski, a great contrast to the drive and high leverage of the race-type (but less versatile) skis I've enjoyed so much also. Both feels seem valuable, fun, depending on what you're wanting that day or in changing conditions. So I'd love your thoughts on using both types of bindings on an "in between" ski like the AX. I'd been leaning towards the more immediate, relaxed Attack13 feel; but your choice of bindings has intrigued me, especially the "no plate" use of the freeflex on such a high performance but relaxed ski.

Geesh. Very interested in your experience/comments here, as well as those of others.

 

[James]

And I have to ask you, as if you know all things AX, does the AX feel surprisingly light underfoot and carving, or heavier, more like a charger ski? (I've h

The 183 feels heavy. It probably should be plus mounted 2-3 cm. But that's a big guess. On steep terrain they were too much work imo. Flatter they cruise just fine.
Unless you're over 200lbs , really like speed, and or experiment with binding position, you should go with the 175. That seems to be the sweetspot in this ski along with the 167. I think they missed it with the 183, it becomes heavy and tiresome frankly, but mount point experimenting might change that view.

 

[cosmoliu]

I'm thinking strongly of getting either the 183 or 175 AXs, soon.

The consensus on this thread: https://www.pugski.com/threads/stockli-laser-ax-vs-renoun-z-77.9730/ would seem to indicate that the 183 AX is A LOT of ski, suitable for true Clydes.

 

[ski otter 2]

Thanks, @James - great info. And thanks @cosmoliu for the other thread, full of good stuff.

I'm still very interested in the effect of using a race freeflex binding (apparently w/o plate) on the AX, and just what that would do compared to an Attack13 or Griffin 13.

 

[James]

Thanks, @James - great info. And thanks @cosmoliu for the other thread, full of good stuff.

I'm still very interested in the effect of using a race freeflex binding (apparently w/o plate) on the AX, and just what that would do compared to an Attack13 or Griffin 13.

I would go freeflex. That system is supposed to prevent loading of the toe as the ski flexes. They're good bindings and offer some solid ones.

If you've got a short boot def not Griffon as it's hard to get into. Was reminded of that this year as off piste, in a bad spot- if the ski slides down it may not be possible to recover, this guy took his skis off to hike up. Then he had lots of trouble getting them on in loose snow. Griffons.

You could always put a plate on the AX... Might be sick. Jeez, 10 yrs ago you would plate it most likely.

 

[ski otter 2]

I would go freeflex. That system is supposed to prevent loading of the toe as the ski flexes. They're good bindings and offer some solid ones.

If you've got a short boot def not Griffon as it's hard to get into. Was reminded of that this year as off piste, in a bad spot- if the ski slides down it may not be possible to recover, this guy took his skis off to hike up. Then he had lots of trouble getting them on in loose snow. Griffons.

You could always put a plate on the AX... Might be sick. Jeez, 10 yrs ago you would plate it most likely.

Thanks.



With the more relaxed but still high performance AX I'm hoping for a fun contrast with race plate skis I already got.
And yet guess I'll shift gears a bit and maybe go freeflex w/o plate.

(Gad, Even recently I've gotten blackened, lost big toe nails from toe jamming on 188/30 GS race skis - with Atomic bindings and boots I should have punched).

P.S. (Boot size 26.5 - is that short?) I've also heard that Marker has had quality problems with the Griffins, etc. You're advice about Griffins is, I'm sure, accurate; and I try to shift to the Tyrolias, mostly, except for Schizos; but I've used and still own so many of the Griffin suckers, including Marker Griffin demo bindings and Schizos, that it's half too late for me: just literally dozens of skis with Griffins over the years and now, and no problems I can recall, if I follow my little procedures in powder snow to get the things back on. Now Jesters, those I've had problems with.

 

[James]

Boot size 26.5 - is that short?)

No, 24 would be short.

 

[ski otter 2]

I recently got to ski some 17/18 Laser AXes, but in 183 - not 175.

Unfortunately, I never got them into steeps or steep bumps - not on such spring re-freeze days, for me. And I have to emphasize, this was just my own, subjective reaction, and I'm an old guy now, so a finesse skier.

I skied the AXes for part of two days, first for about five runs, then for about ten runs almost a week later - at Loveland both times; 1) the day after a storm, with lots of slightly frozen chop/crud, and heavy, crusty powder turning to crud too; and 2) an "old snow" refreeze day, on early morning crust groomers turning softer to wet crud as the morning wore on. I also skied them in off piste, easy bumps as those got soft enough. And in off piste crusty slush and heavy slush build up on groomers past noon. The long sought skis were Gorsusch Vail demos, with Attack13 demo bindings, lightly used. (A friend works there.)

Result: They felt surprisingly lightweight and responsive, informal, great on edge, increasingly playful and quick as the mount was moved forward, the first time compared to V-Werks Katanas 184s, and the second time compared to 188/30 Volkl FIS WC GS skis I'd been on just before.

The 78 AXes are tentatively my favorite narrow all mountain skis with frontside bias so far; and very like my current favorites, old 08/09 Stockli SR 80 XXL 178s, more similar than any other skis I've been on - just add a touch of front rocker for non-catching or non-hooking ability in crud, a small bit more flex (softness?), maybe, not sure - and a little more edge grip perhaps due to these being newer skis, with just a touch of added lightness/quickness/pop, and these AXes are my XXLs reborn. They feel almost alike. I'd guess they would be even more similar if they were the same length.


Also, I tried the AXes at suggested line, +3 mm., +1.5 cm., and about +2.0 cm. I'd like to try them even farther forward, +2.5 at least.

Results: At suggested line, they responded somewhat inefficiently but best, for me, to an almost race ski style, and variations. At this mount, not a ski I'd necessarily buy though promising. But at this mount, they were extra stable in crust/slush/crud - also fun on groomers and mild bumps, and mild slush buildup, but a trifle sluggish even though so lightweight.

At +1.5, the 183s really livened up, to me better and better. Skis I'd want to own. Really fun combination of rock solid stable and good on edge, throw em around edge to edge, flexing. Neat. Playful. A great contrast to race skis and near race skis. This is where I would probably mount these, if I was just taking one mount position, but not sure yet.

At +2.0, I liked these even better, even more playful. Maybe where I would start on steeps, or big bumps. Wish I'd tried them even farther forward, in hindsight.

Dang, so late in the season, maybe I want to buy some AX 183s, and right now I've found them a good bit cheaper than at the safer (but untried) 175 length. Mmmm... Also, there'd probably be less overlap between the 183s and my 178 XXLs than there would be with AX 175s.

 

[jeff foreman]

Blizzard Brahma 2018, Stockli Laser AX, Fischer Pro Mountain 95, Fischer The Curv DTX in terrible snow!

The following review is a 3-runs/ski review of 4 good skis, in less than optimal conditions. I find that any ski feels amazing on Colorado hero snow. The kind of snow I was on today was the opposite, and really pulled out the personality and friendliness of each ski. Rain had fallen last week, almost 2 inches, and 8 inches of heavy snow followed. Bachelor had done their usual poor job grooming, trying to groom 60 miles each night and leaving the groomers riddled with ridges, holes, death cookies. Despite our complaints, they have yet to learn “quality over quantity”. Wind was blowing 50mph plus at mid-mountain, which was pushing powdered sugar snow down the hill, filling in spots. Groomers went from concrete to 3” deep of windpack within the matter of a couple of feet. I was able to get much more of a feel for the skis today than I did in Colorado. Good snow masks a lot of flaws!

1st up: the Blizzard Brahma, 2018 model, 180cm. This ski is all new for 2018, different shape in the tip and tail, flipcore design is also different in flex. The overall feel of the ski is nothing like the 2017 version. My perception is of a ski with above average stability, moderate power in the tail, moderate forgiveness, moderate edge grip. It sits right in the middle of the spectrum for everything: arcing turns isn't really it's specialty, as it feels a little sluggish as a groomer ski. Off-piste, I liked it in bigger radius brushed turns, tighter radius higher edge angle turns. It fought me a bit when I wanted to stay fall line and ski it like a more focused bump ski. The tip did feel like it wanted to dive down and find hard snow more than I preferred: it was laterally very stiff at the tip, almost too edgy and aggressive. The tail was quite forgiving however, certainly an improvement on the 2017 model. Due to the aggressive tip, I held back a bit in the junk snow, as I really didn't trust the ski as much as I wanted to. I did note the ski was railed out of the wrapper and really needed a grind.

Stockli Laser AX: current model (current through 2018), 175cm. The Laser AX is fairly narrow for an off-piste ski at 78mm, but one would never know that when skiing it. This was by far the easiest and best ski here, no question. Although the tip had every bit as much power as the other skis tested here, it did not suffer from the “excessive edginess” and artificially boosted lateral feel that was present on the other skis. It loaded perfectly, did not “dive for hard snow underneath, and not a trace of a hooky tip was present. It seemed to surf above the junk snow. I would say forgiveness was easily 30% higher than any of the other skis. The tail was so easy when releasing; the AX truly feels like an off-piste narrow ski in these conditions. On the groomers, it was the only ski in the group that I trusted enough to really open up, as I was confident the tip wouldn't find a hole and dive in, nor would it catch and grab. If I could draw up a ski that responded exactly as I desired, given the terrible conditions, the AX would be that ski. Part of that is the relative quiet, damp nature on groomers: the AX is an all-condition ski, not a groomer zoomer, race-ski lite model. I call it “technical all-mountain”. It is superb in bumps, for example.

Fischer Pro Mountain 86: another ski that is stiff laterally, very aggressive, and has a bit of a wide carver feel. The performance of the 86 mirrored that of the Brahma; the character of the 2 skis is not similar, however. The 86 contains more tip rocker with no taper, it tends to feel more engaged at the tip, and in this snow, that meant arcing turns. The 86 also was great as long as I trusted it in the junky snow, but that is a tough thing to ask with a ski this laterally aggressive. I love the 86 in good snow; I have found it to be a superb all-mountain companion, but once we start talking about somewhat scary concrete and funky snow blown in, it was quite aggressive at the tip, laterally speaking. It also wanted to dive down to firm snow, always looking for a hard surface to engage with. Great fun on the smoother patches, too much in the junk; it skis like a frontside ski with some versatility in width, which is exactly how it was designed. The Ranger 90 is the off-piste ski. The tail was fairly aggressive as well on the 86; best to keep this one as a 75% groomer ski.

Fischer The Curv DTX: a pure frontside carver, one of the best carvers on the market today. I didn't try to venture off-piste on the DTX; it is a groomer ski, not a narrow all-mountain ski. If I had to buy only one pure carver, it may very well be the DTX. Even with that said, it was a heck of a lot of ski for these conditions. Again, very laterally stiff, the tip engages immediately at the top of the turn. The skier needs to be ready for what is coming next: a freight train of power and snap. Incredible power, but it was a little much in this snow; get that tip fully working, and it tends to dig south through the powdered sugar. It was the best ski here provided that I trust it, but in this snow, I did not feel like taking any chances, and backed off. The DTX has serious top end for such a short 171cm ski; power rivaling that of any frontside ski. It may be the best carver available today. A shame I couldn't open it up due to terrible grooming. I dealt with ridges and holes from one edge of the groomer to the other. Bachelor has a view on groomers of “quantity over quality”, the proverbial “half-ass job”, which makes testing hard snow skis a real challenge.

Of all the skis I tested in these conditions, the AX was really only the ski that handled them well. It really brings out the difference between premium skis and more affordable, larger distribution brands. The difference isn't so much at the top end of stability: any ski can be designed for high stability given enough metal and carbon. The premium skis, as I have found, have a range that most top-end skis do not. They can be dialed down, backed off, skied slow in junk snow, with the corresponding sweet spot double the size when compared to that of a ski selling for $599. They are more predictable in rough conditions: the skier finds the ski to be less about what type of turn the ski wants to execute, and more about the type of turn the skier wants to execute. It may sound like a small distinction, but far too many skis today have a “mind of their own” and are artificially designed to feel “boosted”. Car enthusiasts are familiar with this concept: too often big cars are produced that feel dead and ship-like, yet characteristics such as steering are artificially changed to feel more aggressive, rather than actually making a sportier, precise handling RWD car. A friend drives a Mercedes CLA AMG, and it is the epitome of a “boosted” car. Heavy FWD, mad torque-steer, artificially snappy steering rack, boosted turbo engine. To borrow a popular idiom: it isn't a sporty car, but can play one after staying at the Holiday Inn. This is the case with many skis today, and why uber-stiff skis such as the Mantra still remain popular with high intermediates. They feel “edgy”, and those speaking so highly of them from a high intermediate standpoint will refer to how “well they carve”, even though that skier is incapable of getting enough edge angle and pressure to carve a turn. What they feel is that hard, aggressive “bite”, not unlike a car that is too stiffly sprung. Stiffly sprung cars aren't necessarily fast around a track, but they do feel fast. It is mistaken for a ski that is working underfoot, whereas the Laser AX, for example, is actually holding well underfoot, but instead of feeling aggressive, the pressure builds as directed by the skier, as if it were reading the skier's mind.

Really grateful for this old review! I picked up some new 2019's for 40% off at a ski resort in Quebec that was clearing everything out. Very lucky because I live in NW BC. These skis are major league! They are precisely as described in this beautiful review above. I mounted Look Pivot 14's. Ideal combination because the Pivot interface allows you to truly feel this ski bend. I currently have 5mm half soles beneath my boot liners. Allows for nice forward pressure. Mounted on the recommended line mostly because I am Mondo 30.5 so no need to come forward. The balance is fantastic and looking forward to testing in the moguls and cut-up snow. On hard single black groomers you have to watch your speed when you carve due to the phenomenal acceleration-but as Scott said the ski can be backed off with remedial moves. An additional caveat is I feel my knees are really protected by these skis in a way my Nordica Enforcer's do not-obviously due to the build quality and narrow width. I almost pulled the trigger on Brahma's a couple years in a row and so glad I didn't! These skis are exceptional and if you haven't been on skinny skis for a long time; don't worry, you will adapt in one to two trips to your local mountain. The perfect complement to your powder ski.

-Salutations Pugsters-