Carving turn phases - Reilly McGlashan's theory

[JESinstr]

@JESinstr your definition of carving is s not the definition I believe most instructors or ski associations adopt. They generally define carving as edge locked turns ; e.g. snow moving along the length of the ski, not across the base or edge of the ski. A basic parallel turn is not a carved turn In PSIA parlance. A wedge turn performed by a beginner would not be a carved turn. I don’t think most would consider a power wedge performed by a member of the Swiss demo team to be a carved turn either even though one ski is carving.

if you look at Reilly’s video referenced in the OP you will see that it is a carved turn according to the definition above.Thus, centripetal force is the dominant force to be dealt with although gravity plays a role in managing the magnitude of pressure in different phases of the turn.

Edge locked turns = the ski turns you. This is a simple equation made possible by the construction of the modern shaped ski. There's all kinds of focus by PSIA et al and the various internet ski personalities on implementation at the upper levels of the sport but there seems to be no interest with the beginner progression.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Edge locked turns = the ski turns you. This is a simple equation made possible by the construction of the modern shaped ski. There's all kinds of focus by PSIA et al and the various internet ski personalities on implementation at the upper levels of the sport but there seems to be no interest with the beginner progression.

And that beginner progression is the bread and butter of ski instruction.

 

[slowrider]

And that beginner progression is the bread and butter of ski instruction.

Beginner or Expert the 3 basic movements are the same. Steering, Edging and Pressure.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@slowrider, yes, many want beginners can be taught the same exact movements that experts use, and expect that they will be happy being taught those movements because their progress will be fast, and that they will never need to unlearn anything, that all they will need to do is get better at what they were taught in their beginner lesson.

I disagree.

You need to know that I teach in New England and the beginner lessons here tend to last 1.5 hours at the least, or 3.0 hours at best. Many new skiers never take another lesson. They expect after that one beginner group lesson to be able to make turns in both directions, stop at will, and ride the lifts to green terrain up the mountain. Mountain management wants instructors to teach in a way that fulfils these expectations.

What do you think we teach them to do to make their first turns in a group lesson with 8-12 adults, some of whom have never ridden a bicycle and all of whom are in boots too big? They have trouble side-stepping up the hill. REAL trouble. They can't make their wrists behave when doing a bull-fighter turn. The beginner terrain may not have a flat run-out, so they must MUST have a sure way to stop before running into something below the run.

Everything is new and unfamiliar and confusing to them. If they turn around on flat terrain, they cross their tips or tails and even with careful and caring and understanding and compassionate and funny instruction they still trip themselves up because it's all so new.

Do you think that under those expectations we choose to teach them a de-tuned version of what you do to make your slalom turns down a hard-snow blue-black groomer, or the movements you make to ski a narrow corridor down a bump field, or the movements you use as you negotiate gates in a masters GS race? It's easy to say steering, pressure, and edging is always the same, but the actual movements are not the same if you want to get these newbies down the hill in one piece at least twice in a limited amount of time.

Circumstances matter.

 

[slowrider]

True alot of individuals are athletically challenged. It's rewarding when you teach a natural athlete. They're few and far between.

 

[Mike King]

Edge locked turns = the ski turns you. This is a simple equation made possible by the construction of the modern shaped ski. There's all kinds of focus by PSIA et al and the various internet ski personalities on implementation at the upper levels of the sport but there seems to be no interest with the beginner progression.

Really? How about the Adult Teaching Manual. Lots of progressions in there for beginners. Or the Children's Teaching Manual? Lots of progressions in there. Core Concepts for Snowsports Instructors? The Stepping Stones progressions in there?

IMHO there's a lot of information available on how to teach beginners. Beginners deal with gravity. If you want your intermediate skiers to progress, then you better get them to start dealing with centripetal force.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

@slowrider, yes, many want beginners can be taught the same exact movements that experts use, and expect that they will be happy being taught those movements because their progress will be fast, and that they will never need to unlearn anything, that all they will need to do is get better at what they were taught in their beginner lesson.

I disagree.

You need to know that I teach in New England and the beginner lessons here tend to last 1.5 hours at the least, or 3.0 hours at best. Many new skiers never take another lesson. They expect after that one beginner group lesson to be able to make turns in both directions, stop at will, and ride the lifts to green terrain up the mountain. Mountain management wants instructors to teach in a way that fulfils these expectations.

What do you think we teach them to do to make their first turns in a group lesson with 8-12 adults, some of whom have never ridden a bicycle and all of whom are in boots too big? They have trouble side-stepping up the hill. REAL trouble. They can't make their wrists behave when doing a bull-fighter turn. The beginner terrain may not have a flat run-out, so they must MUST have a sure way to stop before running into something below the run.

Everything is new and unfamiliar and confusing to them. If they turn around on flat terrain, they cross their tips or tails and even with careful and caring and understanding and compassionate and funny instruction they still trip themselves up because it's all so new.

Do you think that under those expectations we choose to teach them a de-tuned version of what you do to make your slalom turns down a hard-snow blue-black groomer, or the movements you make to ski a narrow corridor down a bump field, or the movements you use as you negotiate gates in a masters GS race? It's easy to say steering, pressure, and edging is always the same, but the actual movements are not the same if you want to get these newbies down the hill in one piece at least twice in a limited amount of time.

Circumstances matter.

Hmm. So there's a reason why we might have a focus on advanced skiing...

 

[JESinstr]

Really? How about the Adult Teaching Manual. Lots of progressions in there for beginners. Or the Children's Teaching Manual? Lots of progressions in there. Core Concepts for Snowsports Instructors? The Stepping Stones progressions in there?

IMHO there's a lot of information available on how to teach beginners. Beginners deal with gravity. If you want your intermediate skiers to progress, then you better get them to start dealing with centripetal force.

Mike

Have you ever stopped to consider why there would be a need for "Lots of progressions"? Skiing on the modern shaped ski is not complicated and has actually been more effective at making skiing easier than all progressions put together IMO. Skiing is, however, fundamentally counter intuitive relative to how balance is dynamically achieved both fore and aft and laterally. Once you break through that obstacle, things tend to move right along.

Why you are now seemingly driving a wedge between gravity and Centripetal force is puzzling. I don't think the ski can distinguish if its engagement with the surface is due to Gravitational or Centripetal generated force.

BTW you don't "deal" with Centripetal force, you create and manage it. Those who have to deal with it are those who have chosen to employ straight line bracing techniques in reaction to velocity.

 

[Mike King]

Have you ever stopped to consider why there would be a need for "Lots of progressions"? Skiing on the modern shaped ski is not complicated and has actually been more effective at making skiing easier than all progressions put together IMO. Skiing is, however, fundamentally counter intuitive relative to how balance is dynamically achieved both fore and aft and laterally. Once you break through that obstacle, things tend to move right along.

Why you are now seemingly driving a wedge between gravity and Centripetal force is puzzling. I don't think the ski can distinguish if its engagement with the surface is due to Gravitational or Centripetal generated force.

BTW you don't "deal" with Centripetal force, you create and manage it. Those who have to deal with it are those who have chosen to employ straight line bracing techniques in reaction to velocity.

There is a point in a learning to ski where one changes their focus from gravity to centripetal/centrifugal force. You can easily see those that are focused on gravity -- they don't move inside the new turn. They have an "inrigger" to balance against gravity. Those that have learned to embrace centripetal/centrifugal force, on the other hand, have found the mechanics to balance against those forces. Their stance tends to narrow. The skis are aligned to the rotational forces (as you would say) in the turn.

Sure, the ski doesn't distinguish between the forces of gravity and centripetal force, but our students do unconsciously.

As to "dealing" versus "managing and creating," it depends on the amount of force and how proactively you managed the force. If you didn't manage it, you will be dealing with it!

Mike

 

[JESinstr]

There is a point in a learning to ski where one changes their focus from gravity to centripetal/centrifugal force. You can easily see those that are focused on gravity -- they don't move inside the new turn. They have an "inrigger" to balance against gravity. Those that have learned to embrace centripetal/centrifugal force, on the other hand, have found the mechanics to balance against those forces. Their stance tends to narrow. The skis are aligned to the rotational forces (as you would say) in the turn.

Sure, the ski doesn't distinguish between the forces of gravity and centripetal force, but our students do unconsciously.

As to "dealing" versus "managing and creating," it depends on the amount of force and how proactively you managed the force. If you didn't manage it, you will be dealing with it!

Mike

Sad, but not surprising, that you blew off my initial comments.

Why not make that "point of focus change" happen in the first lesson? After all, the wedge skier is preset on the inside edge of their outside ski and the COM is also preset inside the upcoming turn. So what's the problem? There are millions of people out there that have "learned to ski" who have yet to change their focus regarding the forces at play and probably never will. Every skier that is moving on the inside edge of their new outside ski and redirecting the skis toward the fall line is beginning the generation of Centripetal force. The question is: Is this generation in pursuit of circular travel or just an unintended consequence occurring on the way to a rotary based bracing state?

That is the difference between those who create and manage the turning force and those who have to deal with it.

My goal as a teacher is to get the student to properly utilize the intent of modern shaped ski from the minute they come to the beginners circle and not wait to some time in the future when bad habits have to be addressed.

Happy New Years!

 

[Skitechniek]

I always find the 'developing bad habits' argument to be quite interesting. Every skier has bad habits. Level 4's still have A LOT of bad habits and technical deficiencies. Even if you would hypothetically speaking teach someone the "right" way (not that there is a right way imho), that person is still going to develop bad habits. Every skier starts out with lots of bad habits and they gradually become less as one progresses. Sure skiing and sports in general is about teaching/learning new things, but it's just as much and probably even more about detaining bad habits.

A typical ski lesson convo will not be something like "you are doing this absolutely perfect, so I'll teach you something new". No, there is probably nothing new and what you are already doing is flawed and needs improving. So you're getting your mistakes (bad habits) fixed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Instruction often involves remedial work. This involves correction of dysfunctional movement patterns. "Starting over" with fundamentals missed the first time around is remedial work, which often is referred to as unlearning.

Other times instruction involves developmental work. This means refining skills already in place, plus developing precision use and tactical application of those good habits.

I've found remedial work to be more prevalent in my lower level clients, but by no means is it the only thing usually needed.

 

[Mike King]

Sad, but not surprising, that you blew off my initial comments.

Why not make that "point of focus change" happen in the first lesson? After all, the wedge skier is preset on the inside edge of their outside ski and the COM is also preset inside the upcoming turn. So what's the problem? There are millions of people out there that have "learned to ski" who have yet to change their focus regarding the forces at play and probably never will. Every skier that is moving on the inside edge of their new outside ski and redirecting the skis toward the fall line is beginning the generation of Centripetal force. The question is: Is this generation in pursuit of circular travel or just an unintended consequence occurring on the way to a rotary based bracing state?

That is the difference between those who create and manage the turning force and those who have to deal with it.

My goal as a teacher is to get the student to properly utilize the intent of modern shaped ski from the minute they come to the beginners circle and not wait to some time in the future when bad habits have to be addressed.

Happy New Years!

Part of the reason is that centripetal force requires more speed. Most beginners are frightened of speed. What they are dealing with is gravity. The influence of gravity is a bigger factor than centripetal force, at least given the slope angle in our beginner area.

We do try to get our beginning guests to be focused on centripetal force from the get-go by going direct to parallel. When you put the guest in a wedge (even a gliding one), they are predominantly focused on gravity, not centripetal force. But there is a lot of motor learning necessary to progress to (pick your concept: move the center of mass or topple) inside the new turn.

Some guests pick this is up quickly. Others struggle and may never progress to balancing against centripetal force. That doesn't mean that they cannot develop sufficient skill focusing on gravity to explore the mountain -- look at the number of kids skiing black and even double black terrain in a wedge or a wedge christie.

But as @LiquidFeet categorized, one of the biggest remedial topics I find in teaching intermediate skiers is learning to become focused on centripetal force rather than gravity.

Mike

 

[JESinstr]

Part of the reason is that centripetal force requires more speed. Most beginners are frightened of speed. What they are dealing with is gravity. The influence of gravity is a bigger factor than centripetal force, at least given the slope angle in our beginner area.

We do try to get our beginning guests to be focused on centripetal force from the get-go by going direct to parallel. When you put the guest in a wedge (even a gliding one), they are predominantly focused on gravity, not centripetal force. But there is a lot of motor learning necessary to progress to (pick your concept: move the center of mass or topple) inside the new turn.

Some guests pick this is up quickly. Others struggle and may never progress to balancing against centripetal force. That doesn't mean that they cannot develop sufficient skill focusing on gravity to explore the mountain -- look at the number of kids skiing black and even double black terrain in a wedge or a wedge christie.

But as @LiquidFeet categorized, one of the biggest remedial topics I find in teaching intermediate skiers is learning to become focused on centripetal force rather than gravity.

Mike

So at what speed does centripetal force start? I was under the assumption that centripetal force was the result of circular travel no matter what the velocity but I may be wrong.

You make it all sound so complex and complicated and if I wasn't such a long time PSIA member, I might think there was some kind of self preservation conspiracy going on. I will say it again, the modern shape ski has made skiing easier and the teaching industry is having a hard time adjusting its progressions at the entry level IMO. I thought great things were going to come out of the development of the 5 fundamentals in this area but I am still waiting.

All I am asking is why are we not teaching the mechanics of circular travel (for which the ski is designed) right from get go? If turning is the objective, the goal is to reliably align one's mass (balance) in a way that directs pressure to a base of support under foot and on to the inside edge of the new outside ski. So that takes care of fundamentals #1 and #2 and then on to #3. The fact that angulation/inclination requirements increase from the bottom up as the centripetal force becomes the dominant force of record is a matter of edging skill development not about changing to a new skill set.

As stated previously, I have found that instructional success is realized in addressing that which is not intuitive like balancing through the arch, raising the outside of the foot to obtain edges, softening/shortening the inside leg to obtain an edge balance relationship with the outside ski. Things like that.

 

[Tony S]

A typical ski lesson convo will not be something like "you are doing this absolutely perfect, so I'll teach you something new". No, there is probably nothing new and what you are already doing is flawed and needs improving. So you're getting your mistakes (bad habits) fixed.

Instruction often involves remedial work. This involves "correction" and "fixing" dysfunctional movement patterns. "Starting over" with fundamentals is remedial work, as is "unlearning" and replacing old bad habits.

Presumably teachers will look for strengths in the student's skiing and try, as a tactic, to expand on those, with the hope ultimately of crowding out some of the dysfunctional patterns, yes? (This is a real question, since I'm not an instructor; not being rhetorical.) There is a school of thought in management that espouses this idea, more or less.

I can imagine, for example, taking someone who is naturally good with low speed slide-y pivot-y motions to experiment with low angle glades. The idea would not be that this will help the student in any direct way to master edge-locked turns. Instead you are helping her advance her self confidence and knowledge of the mountain and just plain old enjoyment, based on an obvious next step. Work on carved turns might be expected to come when the skier is excited and knowledgeable and confident enough about skiing that she begins, herself, to see the holes in her skills, or, anyway, the effects of them. For example, she might try a citizen race against a friend and be surprised to find that her times were very slow.

I'm thinking of it as an alternate route off the plateau, in contradistinction to "Here are some of the many ways in which you suck, loser. Let's go try to fix them." Instructors don't SAY these things, of course. But, human egos being the fragile things they are, this is no doubt what many students hear.

 

[HardDaysNight]

So at what speed does centripetal force start? I was under the assumption that centripetal force was the result of circular travel no matter what the velocity but I may be wrong.

Centripetal force is the cause of circular travel. Without a force, in this case known as centripetal force, acting on a body there can be no turn (acceleration) at all. If a skier is turning, even at a very slow pace in a wedge, by definition that skier is being acted upon by a centripetal force.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Mike King and @JESinstr, it sounds like you two are saying that since a skier is focusing on balancing fore-aft over the skis, they are primarily dealing with gravity and need to think about gravity itself as a partner in their actions. I think you are saying skiers need to mentally focus on this external factor of gravity.

I also think you guys are saying that when a skier focuses on balancing laterally on the outside ski as the skis move in circular travel, they are dealing primarily with centripetal force (added to gravity) and need to consciously think about centripetal force pushing back under the ski.

It also seems like it's important to you two for the skier to recognize that two different forces are at play, and while skiing a skier needs to sense the impact of each of these forces as a separate external factor in their skiing. Sometimes gravity rules; sometimes centripetal force rules, and I sense that you two are saying that a skier needs to know which of these two forces dominates a particular part of the turn.

I'd rather a skier focus on sensations of pressure in the shovel and tail of the ski and under the foot - and the shift in pressure from one outside ski to the other - while noticing how the pressure distribution changes underfoot and from ski to ski - as the skier does things with their body. Attending to those things can take up a lot of RAM. Adding gravity and centripetal force to the list of things to pay attention to seems unduly complicated.

IME, I've found that people can focus on one thing at a time. I'd prefer they focus their conscious mind on what they feel going on under the skis as they manipulate body parts. That's already two things to focus on, underski pressure changes, and body part movement changes.

So here's my question:
How does a skier's ability to ski well benefit if they think as they ski, "Hey this is gravity I'm dealing with; I need to focus on gravity right now" and "Wow this is centripetal force that I'm messing with; I need to focus on centripetal force right now"?

 

[Noodler]

@Mike King and @JESinstr, it sounds like you two are saying that since a skier is focusing on balancing fore-aft over the skis, they are primarily dealing with gravity and need to think about gravity itself as a partner in their actions. I think you are saying skiers need to mentally focus on this external factor of gravity.

I also think you guys are saying that when a skier focuses on balancing laterally on the outside ski as the skis move in circular travel, they are dealing primarily with centripetal force (added to gravity) and need to consciously think about centripetal force pushing back under the ski.

It also seems like it's important to you two for the skier to recognize that two different forces are at play, and while skiing a skier needs to sense the impact of each of these forces as a separate external factor in their skiing. Sometimes gravity rules; sometimes centripetal force rules, and I sense that you two are saying that a skier needs to know which of these two forces dominates a particular part of the turn.

I'd rather a skier focus on sensations of pressure in the shovel and tail of the ski and under the foot - and the shift in pressure from one outside ski to the other - while noticing how the pressure distribution changes underfoot and from ski to ski - as the skier does things with their body. Attending to those things can take up a lot of RAM. Adding gravity and centripetal force to the list of things to pay attention to seems unduly complicated.

IME, I've found that people can focus on one thing at a time. I'd prefer they focus their conscious mind on what they feel going on under the skis as they manipulate body parts. That's already two things to focus on, underski pressure changes, and body part movement changes.

So here's my question:
How does a skier's ability to ski well benefit if they think as they ski, "Hey this is gravity I'm dealing with; I need to focus on gravity right now" and "Wow this is centripetal force that I'm messing with; I need to focus on centripetal force right now"?

I have a different take on what this conversation is getting at. I like to talk about our "dry land" brains and how that impacts our skiing movements. In this case, the "gravity side" of this discussion in my view is more about how our "dry land" brain wants to deal to the idea of sliding on snow. It wants to keep our feet under us to support us. Unless a skier has a lot of experience with high level skating (or possibly cycling doing sharply banked turns), they're not used to the idea of the lower half of their body not being under the upper half. This is a foreign feeling and where centripetal force, and realizing that there can be support provided by that force rather than gravity, comes into play. Doesn't Tom Gellie call this "effective gravity" (or something like that, I'm forgetting at the moment). So there is a new force that the learning skier needs to get comfortable with in how it can support them even if their feet are now out to the side.

So I guess what I'm saying is that for some skiers learning to ski, this would have to be explained to them. That this force will happen as they create sharper carved turns. They need to understand what feelings may occur and to not let those feelings cause them to back off from using the correct movements within the turn dynamics.

 

[François Pugh]

Gee, I guess some new skiers didn't spend enough time on the merry-go-round as a child. Damned over-protective parents!

 

[JESinstr]

Centripetal force is the cause of circular travel. Without a force, in this case known as centripetal force, acting on a body there can be no turn (acceleration) at all. If a skier is turning, even at a very slow pace in a wedge, by definition that skier is being acted upon by a centripetal force.

I stand corrected. The force is created through interaction of the ski and surface, my apologies.