Carving turn phases - Reilly McGlashan's theory

[PeteW]

Interesting point of view

 

[oldschoolskier]

Same old stuff, just new verbage, not that, that is a bad thing.

It makes makes people sit up and listen for something new and usually learn something previously misunderstood/not learned. While we all learn, we learn similarly and differently at the same time. A new prospective gives a chance to see it differently, for the less experienced potential lots of ah ha moments, for the experienced the potential for a big AH HA moment.

I see things like this, does form match function? Does it make sense to me? Does it enlighten or confuse? Finally is it required? The last depends on you own understanding of the existing concepts.

Not criticizing the video, but answering those questions, yes, yes, maybe enlighten some, maybe some benefit from this view point.

 

[Mike King]

So as I understand Reilly's characterization, there are only two phases to the turn: shaping and transition. Shaping is the phase of building edge, and transition is the phase of decreasing edge. At least that is clean.

Does anyone have a definition that delineates the three phases of a PSIA turn? I believe initiation starts with edge change, but what separates initiation from shaping, or shaping from finish?

Mike

 

[PeteW]

... Does it make sense to me?
Does it enlighten or confuse? ...

I'm not a ski instructor. I'm an engineer. So Reilly's theory sounds more logically justified to me. Classical 3 phase turn looks like artificially created for me... and then everybody talks about transition in-between them

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think of a turn as having a top half and a bottom half. The fall line and the moment when skis are flat separate the two halves.

So I like Reilly's model. He assigns a function to each half; building and reducing edge angle. That works.

KISS.

 

[PeteW]

@LiquidFeet will you agree that yours and Reilly's definitions can differ?

I'm thinking that when it gets steeper I can hold maximum edge angle after the fall line to be able to control my speed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet will you agree that yours and Reilly's definitions can differ?

I'm thinking that when it gets steeper I can hold maximum edge angle after the fall line to be able to control my speed.

Sure. And there are bump turns. I was thinking about the turns Reilly was demonstrating, and versions done at slower speeds with less edge angle.

 

[peterm]

Very cool video.

 

[JESinstr]

Saw this pop up on YouTube this morning. Generally I like it and I can definitively relate this to my medium to long radius turns.

When he says "It's important to set up the outside leg in an extended position, is this like JF talking about climbing the wall and entering the "Bowl" ?

 

[Steve]

I too break turns up into two parts in the same way as @LiquidFeet said. Top of the turn, bottom of the turn. And just like in the video the break point is when they're flat, about to engage the new edges.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^ I don't focus on that moment when the skis are flat though. There are things I do just after the fall line to get the flattening going, and at some point the skis are on their new edges. At some point in between they went flat. It's a continuum.

However, I sure do sense the fall line moment. The skis go out then they come back. When that change happens, it's time for me to do something different with that outside ski/foot/leg.

If I start talking about apex vs fall line I may end up overstating things. Anybody else want to talk about differences with respect to apex and fall line?

Anyone want to talk about whether they conceive of turn phases differently when making fresh tracks in narrow steep couloirs vs skiing blue groomers in traffic with hard snow? Or when skiing New England ice bumps vs Taos bumps?

 

[razie]

The classic model is 3 phases, right? Top / fall line / bottom. I think PSIA uses "shaping"? Another, older CSCF model that I've seen talks about "unloading/edging/loading" which I found really useful.

I used to like the "Austrian model" which added a fourth: "the recentering".

It's not bad to keep it simple, of course. I normally focus on the transition, of course (which is just recentering) and the top of the turn, which is critical for engagement and the release which is critical for the next engagement. So I guess you could say I focus on "engagement" and "transition" if we are to simplify it...?

There's the RTE model too (release-transfer-engage), which is useful, but those can change order as needed, so not quite the same thing.

My favorite would likely be: top/bottom/re-centering I think. I agree the shaping phases is top-fall line and it's critical for engagement, which is why I would call it "engagement". So engagement/release/re-centering, but that would be a different use of "engage" and "release" than the ETR model... I can see how re-centering can blend into engagement, but so what's left for "transition" then? Skis flat is indeed a critical point in the turn - is the model supposed to "mark it" or talk about it's importance (as in "re-centering')?

You can see that I don't focus much on a "phases" concept, just the movements the skier does. Their timing in relation to recognizable parts of the turn is important - these are "skis flat", "engagement" and "fall line". Reasonably though, nobody knows when they're in the fall line, it goes by quickly, it just separates top and bottom. At that point you're just resisting - so... finally, my model is: "engage", "resist", "release" and "re-center" ? I'm back to four now...

So... sorry, where was I?

 

[LiquidFeet]

As far back as I can remember PSIA has included a "shaping" phase in its turn model. Back when I was a new instructor, that phrase always sounded to me like the skier was supposed to actively rotate the ski across the snow using "femur rotation" (another phrase I heard a lot) while adding edging to get it to grab the snow. This would ensure its developing "steering angle" (yet another favored phrase) would have the desired impact on the turn's shape.

I threw out this conception of shaping a turn long ago. I hope it was a misunderstanding of what PSIA meant. But in so many ways my trainers led me to believe this was exactly what PSIA wanted people to think about all turns.

A model that gives a turn a top and bottom half is succinct. It does not include extra phases that need some functional reason for being included. If this two-phase model includes Reilly's point that in the top of the turn the skier builds edge angle and in the bottom the skier reduces it, then we can have a very clear and concise model of a turn featuring what's essential with far less chance of misunderstanding.

Anyone disagree?
Or ... what are the turns where this model does not apply?

 

[Noodler]

I think I like this 2 phases approach. By just bucketing all the movements/technique used to increase edge angle in one bucket and everything to decrease edge angle in the other bucket, it provides the focus to create a fairly nice ski turn without getting wrapped up in the transition (which I know we all can debate forever). Kinda like the transition just becomes this very short period between the increasing and decreasing of edge angles.

That said, I'm more in the @razie camp as I really don't focus on turn phases at all in my skiing. My focus is primarily on fore/aft and pressure management as I develop and release the edge angles. It's all movement based.

 

[Henry]

I like way Reilly expresses, "The fall line is where the forces start increasing dramatically, so it is important to be set up for this part." In the top of the turn centrifugal force is pulling the body outward while gravity pulls it downward. In the lower part of the turn both forces pull the body the same direction, downward. That extended outside leg, combined with greater edge angle, counteract these forces.

How should one extend the outside leg? My preference is to get that ski on edge and let the ski travel away from the body while allowing the leg to extend. Not to push (or pressure) it out with the leg muscles. Too much push + not enough grip = an unintended skid.

Reilly McGlashan skis the way I imagine myself skiing. I don't dare ask someone to video me....

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Reilly McGlashan skis the way I imagine myself skiing. I don't dare ask someone to video me....

I wonder how many here find this thought uncomfortably familiar.

 

[S.H.]

wrapped up in the transition (which I know we all can debate forever). Kinda like the transition just becomes this very short period between the increasing and decreasing of edge angles.

I think the transition is the very short period between the decreasing and increasing of edge angles. let's argue about it.

 

[Jjmd]

Henry, you nailed it. I instruct part time in NH and coach a high school race team in Ma. I spend a fair amount of time also working with high end adults and other instructors, and use video to do analysis. Often they offer to video me and even though I have been told I ski ok, I think if I actually saw the disconnect between how I think I am skiing and the harsh reality of what’s actually taking place, I would quit the sport.

 

[Henry]

A couple of years ago I was feeling good about my skiing. A friend had a chest mounted GoPro. I saw his vids. Oops. I was inclining when I thought I was angulating. I needed more core strength. Lots of good work during the summer, and then I was actually angulating the way I thought I was. Or at least more than the winter before. Get the videos. Just don't let anyone else see them. Seeing his videos of my skiing improved by skiing by prompting me to improve my conditioning.

 

[Noodler]

A couple of years ago I was feeling good about my skiing. A friend had a chest mounted GoPro. I saw his vids. Oops. I was inclining when I thought I was angulating. I needed more core strength. Lots of good work during the summer, and then I was actually angulating the way I thought I was. Or at least more than the winter before. Get the videos. Just don't let anyone else see them. Seeing his videos of my skiing improved by skiing by prompting me to improve my conditioning.

Exactly. If you actually care and want to improve your skiing, video feedback is a necessary ingredient to connect the dots between your "feels" and your "reals".