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Carving turn phases - Reilly McGlashan's theory

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
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I have a different take on what this conversation is getting at. I like to talk about our "dry land" brains and how that impacts our skiing movements. In this case, the "gravity side" of this discussion in my view is more about how our "dry land" brain wants to deal to the idea of sliding on snow. It wants to keep our feet under us to support us. Unless a skier has a lot of experience with high level skating (or possibly cycling doing sharply banked turns), they're not used to the idea of the lower half of their body not being under the upper half. This is a foreign feeling and where centripetal force, and realizing that there can be support provided by that force rather than gravity, comes into play. Doesn't Tom Gellie call this "effective gravity" (or something like that, I'm forgetting at the moment). So there is a new force that the learning skier needs to get comfortable with in how it can support them even if their feet are now out to the side.

So I guess what I'm saying is that for some skiers learning to ski, this would have to be explained to them. That this force will happen as they create sharper carved turns. They need to understand what feelings may occur and to not let those feelings cause them to back off from using the correct movements within the turn dynamics.

Very much agree with the notion of "Dry Land" Brains as well as the notion that we come to skiing with preset reactions to speed and the unknown mostly derived from experiences with straight line forces while on "Dry Land" . Add to it the notion that the act of skiing may not be as intuitive as one might think and here we are.
 

JESinstr

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Gee, I guess some new skiers didn't spend enough time on the merry-go-round as a child. Damned over-protective parents!

I appreciated your attempts to add some humor but you unknowingly brought up a great point and that is most of the centripetal force created (centrifugal force experienced) is not generated by a manipulation our physical body. It is mechanically generated by some device like a merry go round or turning the steering wheel of a car or cornering on a bike. That's why skaters generally have a higher success rate with skiing. I have to admitt that I haven't seen a study on shot putters and hammer throwers. ;)
 

Mike King

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So at what speed does centripetal force start? I was under the assumption that centripetal force was the result of circular travel no matter what the velocity but I may be wrong.
Gravity's force is 9.3m/s. Centripetal force depends on mass, velocity (squared), and the radius of the turn. The magnitude of gravity's force on the skier will also depend on the slope angle and the orientation of the skis relative to the slope. There is some speed (velocity) at which it becomes (potentially much) larger force than gravity.

As to the rest of it, it's quite a thread drift from the OP.

Mike
 

Uke

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Mike,

If my bar napkin calculations were correct it was just over 20 mph when I would begin generating greater acceleration from the ski than from gravity. Not really all that fast.

uke
 

Mike King

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Mike,

If my bar napkin calculations were correct it was just over 20 mph when I would begin generating greater acceleration from the ski than from gravity. Not really all that fast.

uke
It depends on your mass and the radius of your turn... The actual centripetal force calculation is F= mV^2/r

So, you could increase centripetal force by turning in a smaller radius. Or going faster (biggest effect). Or skipping weight watchers for a few months...
 

geepers

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In metric units acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m per second per second. (9.8m/s^2)

Force is mass times acceleration - so the force would be different for skiers of different masses. But everyone would accelerate at the same rate (neglecting friction).
 

François Pugh

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If you want to compare forces: F= ma. The vector sum of all the forces ACTING ON AN OBJECT will produce an acceleration a. A locked in one "g" turn will produce a turn with centripetal acceleration equivalent to that produced by gravity the two forces will be m(V^2)/R = mg. Note the m on both sides. Add in turn radius is sidecut radius times cosine (tipping angle) and play around a bit....

If you tip a 13-m ski up on edge 45 degrees on a horizontal slope, 21 mph will get you a 1-g turn with a radius of around 9.2 m. That doesn't mean the centripetal force is insignificant at lower speeds or larger radius, just that it's not as strong as gravity.

Not going to drift into slopes; that would be too far off-topic.
 

geepers

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The new CSIA manual "Physics of Skiing" has some calcs/graphs on gravity vs centripetal forces.

Where's the max force in a turn?
Consider a 68kg skier on a 25 degree pitch making a 15m radius turn at 15m/s. Required centripetal force is:

Fc = m*v^2/r = 68 x 15 x 15 / 15 = 1020N​
On a 25degree pitch the component of gravity acting down the slope is:

Fg = m * cos(25 degree) = 68 x 0.91 = 604N​
At the top of the turn gravity is helping the skier turn into the fall line so the GRF needs only to provide:

Fr = Fc - Fg = 1020 - 604 = 416N​
At the fall line gravity is not helping the skier turn and the GRF has to provide it all.

Fr = 1020N​

Below the fall line gravity opposes the turning effort so the GRF has to provide more force. When pointing across the hill it will be:

Fr = Fc + Fg = 1020 + 604 = 1624N.​

There's also a graph of lean angle vs turn radius for 5 speeds (on a constant 25 degree slope). Basically lean angle is a proxy for the size of the centripetal force since we have to incline further to balance against centripetal. The key take-away is that centripetal force varies with the square of the speed - so force increases relatively slowly with decreased radius vs the bigger increase with increased speed.
Examples:
1. At 5m/s lean angle is 9 degree at 20m radius and 15 degrees at 10m radius.
2. At 10m/s it's 30 degrees and 49 degrees respectively.
3. At 15m/s it's 51 degrees and 69 degrees respectively.
 

Chris V.

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So there is a new force that the learning skier needs to get comfortable with in how it can support them even if their feet are now out to the side.

So I guess what I'm saying is that for some skiers learning to ski, this would have to be explained to them.
My take on it, trying to reduce things to the most basic level, is this. Skiing mostly and necessarily consists of two things--descending and making turns. The force of gravity leads to descent. Centripetal force bends the skis, creating turns.

Beginners are very familiar with what gravity is, and what it will do. Too much so, you might say. In the unfamiliar situation of standing on slippery skis, on slippery snow, they accelerate down the slope. Lacking the skills to control speed through proper turning, they will either continue in a straight line, out of control, or instinctively make braking moves--wedging or sideways skidding. If taught those braking moves, they'll embrace them, and then have a hard time letting go of them. Therefore, I believe that the very first thing beginners should learn is just to move with the skis. That is to say, on the gentlest terrain, allow themselves to move in good fore-aft balance in a straight line. It's necessary to start by doing this in a place that ends in a big flat runout or a "return pipe," so that the student doesn't have to do anything to be able to slow and stop. At this point, one wants to avoid instilling any braking move whatsoever.

Then comes the time to introduce centripetal force. Everyone instinctively knows what this is, and feels the effects in everyday activities, but may not be able to articulate it. In particular, beginners are very unlikely to realize that centripetal force bends a ski, and that the bending is what creates turning action. Whether or not the instructor will have a conversation with the student about this, and what kind of a conversation it will be, is going to depend upon the student. Discussing it explicitly with a four year old probably won't get far. But one way or another, the goal should be to get the student to recognize the effect of centripetal force on ski performance, at a subconscious level. The student needs to feel and see the results of putting the skis into an orientation that triggers centripetal force and leads to turning action, and to recognize it for the good thing that it is.

This can be done through direct-to-parallel progressions, or through wedge-based progressions. In either case, the fundamental mechanics that make the skis perform are the same. In either case, the instructor's objective should be that the student continue to move with the skis, and use centripetal force to bend the skis to create turning action--not relying upon an abrupt, deliberate redirection of the skis to change the direction of travel, which is fundamentally a braking action.
 

Chris V.

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1. At 5m/s lean angle is 9 degree at 20m radius and 15 degrees at 10m radius.
2. At 10m/s it's 30 degrees and 49 degrees respectively.
3. At 15m/s it's 51 degrees and 69 degrees respectively.
Or takeaway--if you want to carve, speed is your friend. (Up to a point, LOL!)
 

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