Boots packed out...what to do?

[wallyk]

So my stock Lange liner appears to be packed out or is packing out. I heat molded them mid-season last year when I got them and have probably 30 days on them. They felt good then and at the beginning of this season, but I’m feeling slop these past few days out, especially in funky snow. Can I re-heat mold them (ie do the cells expand) or can that not be done effectively once they’re packed out?

I got some sage advice from @cantunamunch about adding a liner in the secondary market. @cantunamunch sent me a detailed PM, which I could forward with his permission, about the difference between the Zipfit and the Intution liners. Was very helpful. I called two of the more reputable shops in my area and one that sells Zipfit said that they had not sold a liner in a few years. He gave me a number of reasons why the Zipfit products sales have declined and they all made sense......didnt get the feeling that he was trying to push me into a new boot. The shop that stocks the Intuition products seems to do a large volume of business fitting your exact situation.

 

[Ken_R]

So my stock Lange liner appears to be packed out or is packing out. I heat molded them mid-season last year when I got them and have probably 30 days on them. They felt good then and at the beginning of this season, but I’m feeling slop these past few days out, especially in funky snow. Can I re-heat mold them (ie do the cells expand) or can that not be done effectively once they’re packed out?

Your boots are too big.

 

[Noodler]

Your ability to ski as well as possible is directly linked to your liner. The liner is the critical component that sits between your body and the rest of your ski gear. A liner that uses softer materials will not provide the immediate responsiveness of a liner that uses firmer materials. And of course the thicker those softer materials, the more delay involved in transmitting your movements (never mind the fact that the foam breaks down and packs out).

My personal opinion is that if you are the kind of skier striving for the highest performance along with fantastic comfort, then choose a liner with these performance considerations in mind and visit a boot fitter that is willing to put in the work to get you into the correct and smallest shell size your foot can be crammed into.

I prefer ZipFit liners for their ability to really hold your foot in place in the shell, to provide that immediacy of responsiveness, and to not break down over time since it utilizes a special cork compound. It's not the only cork liner available of course and there are also other decent options from Intuition and foamed liners.

 

[CalG]

My liners hurt like hell for the first month.

But after those 25 days , things begin to settle down.

Packed out liners are my friend.

 

[palikona]

I talked with a rep at Intuition and I think I’m going to try a Dreamliner, based on his rec. I’m hoping it helps my control and responsivity, given that my boot is the right size.

 

[RuleMiHa]

I talked with a rep at Intuition and I think I’m going to try a Dreamliner, based on his rec. I’m hoping it helps my control and responsivity, given that my boot is the right size.

I had the Dreamliners and hated them (soft) now have the ProTongue. I wouldn't recommend the Dreamliner to any serious skiers.

 

[Dakine]

Love my Dreamliner MV's in a 120 flex shell.
In the real world and out of the gates they give me the comfort and warmth needed for recreational skiing.
Even in the gates, the excellent fit way beat my packed out stock liners.
As I remember RuleMiHa is a big rig who crushes the equipment meant for mere mortals.

 

[palikona]

Love my Dreamliner MV's in a 120 flex shell.
In the real world and out of the gates they give me the comfort and warmth needed for recreational skiing.
Even in the gates, the excellent fit way beat my packed out stock liners.
As I remember RuleMiHa is a big rig who crushes the equipment meant for mere mortals.

Hoping this is true re: RuleMiHa. My boot is 130 flex and I don’t think it needs to be stiffer.

 

[Brad J]

He gave me a number of reasons why the Zipfit products sales have declined

Let me guess price # 1, The resistance from my friends over the price is by far the biggest reason, the ones that have bought them stop talking about boot issues and concentrate on ski's.

 

[Noodler]

My advice (as posted in other threads) is that an Intuition liner is more dependent on a great shell fit than a ZipFit if you're at all concerned about the performance of your boots. Don't expect an Intuition to perform miracles if your anatomy doesn't actually line up well with the shell's heel & ankle pockets (along with the instep height). You exacerbate the situation by choosing one of the softer foam Intuition liners (which the Dreamliner is one). Honestly (and sorry if this is blunt), if you can get your foot and the Dreamliner into your shell, your shell is too big.

 

[jmeb]

Honestly (and sorry if this is blunt), if you can get your foot and the Dreamliner into your shell, your shell is too big.

The instructors at Masterfit University disagree with this sentiment. We discussed this topic directly in the break out on Intuitions and their variety of foams in different fits. The idea of tiny shell fits is disappearing as shells become more and more anatomical -- especially for recreational skiers.

 

[ted]

The instructors at Masterfit University disagree with this sentiment. We discussed this topic directly in the break out on Intuitions and their variety of foams in different fits. The idea of tiny shell fits is disappearing as shells become more and more anatomical -- especially for recreational skiers.

Can you expand on this? What kind of shell fit are they now looking for?

 

[palikona]

My boots were sized by Larry in Boulder, so I’m very confident they are the right size. Now I have no idea whether to go with a Dreamliner or Pro Tongue. I am a fairly aggressive skier but not crazy. My boot flex is 130.

 

[jmeb]

Can you expand on this? What kind of shell fit are they now looking for?

Shell fit of course is still important. However, multiple instructors stressed that if you can fit someone to provide good ankle/instep/calf hold, a bit of room in the toe box was no problem. For some people, this still means 10mm or even less of space behind the heel when doing a shell fit. But depending on footshape, more room can be fine and even preferable (say a intermediate skier, someone touring, etc.) Ideally a midfoot and toebox that allows the foot its natural splay (well, natural splay when supported by a proper footbed) will give more comfort and equal control to someone whose foot is too tight which forces foot into unnatural positions and potential numbness.

@palikona -- I highly doubt you're in the wrong shell size if Larry fitted you. I don't know anyone who has gone to him that haven't been downsized about as aggressively as is reasonable without tons and tons of work.

 

[palikona]

How much stiffer does a Pro Tongue make a boot? What are the advantages and cons to making a 130 flex boot stiffer?

 

[Noodler]

Shell fit of course is still important. However, multiple instructors stressed that if you can fit someone to provide good ankle/instep/calf hold, a bit of room in the toe box was no problem. For some people, this still means 10mm or even less of space behind the heel when doing a shell fit. But depending on footshape, more room can be fine and even preferable (say a intermediate skier, someone touring, etc.) Ideally a midfoot and toebox that allows the foot its natural splay (well, natural splay when supported by a proper footbed) will give more comfort and equal control to someone whose foot is too tight which forces foot into unnatural positions and potential numbness.

@palikona -- I highly doubt you're in the wrong shell size if Larry fitted you. I don't know anyone who has gone to him that haven't been downsized about as aggressively as is reasonable without tons and tons of work.

Agreed for the most part. Never said anything about locking the foot in place so that it cannot anatomically function correctly. My definition of a good shell fit is broader than typical. It's not just about length, but more importantly about the key control surfaces of the instep, ankles, and heel hold down. Boots can be punched and stretched for the forefoot and toes. Get the tightest fit possible in the key control areas and don't put soft foam around your foot and expect to have a high level control over your skis.

I just disagree with the whole idea that boot fit should vary by skill level of the skier. That's garbage and I believe it holds a lot of skiers back from learning to ski better.

 

[Noodler]

How much stiffer does a Pro Tongue make a boot? What are the advantages and cons to making a 130 flex boot stiffer?

Pro Tongue is damn stiff. Stiffer than anything else in the Intuition line and stiffer than a ZipFit. If you want one I have one for sale, size 26.

 

[jmeb]

I just disagree with the whole idea that boot fit should vary by skill level of the skier. That's garbage and I believe it holds a lot of skiers back from learning to ski better.

I should clarify. I used skill level there to refer to preferences. Fitting is a series of compromises, and the 7 day a year intermediate skier may prefer a slightly more relaxed and comfortable fit even if it loses a touch of performance. Someone who is an intermediate and spends 20+ days a year in them and is looking to improve probably has a different set of preferences.

 

[Noodler]

I should clarify. I used skill level there to refer to preferences. Fitting is a series of compromises, and the 7 day a year intermediate skier may prefer a slightly more relaxed and comfortable fit even if it loses a touch of performance. Someone who is an intermediate and spends 20+ days a year in them and is looking to improve probably has a different set of preferences.

Thanks for the clarification. Agreed. But it's not the first time I've heard reference to the idea that the lower the skill level, the looser the fit is acceptable. It really shouldn't be that way, but of course it's always dependent on individual skier goals and preferences.

 

[Dakine]

My boots were fitted by a master fitter that works with all the best racers in my area.
I can wiggle my toes but all the control surfaces of my foot are well locked in.
The medium volume Dreamliner was a tight fit but after heating in a proper convection oven it conformed beautifully.
Racers may need a plug boot fit that causes pain soon after you buckle it but recreational skiers need something that can be skied all day long.
My setup uses the stiff Booster Straps and works well for me.
If you ski well centered and aren't banging gates boot stiffness is less critical than some think.