Article: mega passes are killing skiing

[Goran M.]

Lift ticket yield is around 47.5%

 

[LKLA]

Lift ticket yield is around 47.5%

A little higher!

The more commonly used metric within the industry to gauge pricing is ETP - effective ticket price - which takes total lift ticket revenues divided by total skier visits. ETP has been increasing for over two decades now as resorts have increased pricing sustainably/predictably, though it varies greatly year to year given that snowfall drives visits. ETP increased an average of 4.5% over the last 20 years (window tickets at Disney World increased by 4.9% over that same period).

 

[Goose]

Reality is what you pay. Let's not distort reality - more than we already have. At the end of the day that is what gets deducted from your account, not the price printed on the window. If they happen to be same or you happen to buy at the window, then of course they are the same. But when talking about ticket prices, they often differ as people can buy tickets on sites like Liftopia, or use a buddy pass, or buy tickets on Ebay...Vail alone has over 60 passes, not including the Epic Day pass, which goes from 1 to seven days.

Btw, the average ticket window buyer skied an average of just over 2 days for the entire season, so people are not using the window ticket as their go to or long-term solution.

Why do you get to dictate what the ONLY FIRM comparison is? If that is what you choose to reference then by all means go ahead. That is your right. But most folks reference what they end up paying as the cost, as the measure to reference the value proposition against.

It is wishful and naive to think that you can pay the same if you give up time value of money, take on the risk, and give up optionality as you would if you held onto your money, assumed less risk and kept as much optionality as possible. If your life circumstances do not allow you to buy a pass six-nine months out, then you may have to pay more when you do end-up skiing, on a per day basis that is. If you can't buy airline tickets 6-12 months out and need to purchase them ta week before traveling, then you are likely going to pay more for that airplane ticket. If you can't or don't want to pay for a year's subscription to a newspaper and instead buy it the morning that a story grabs your attention, then you will likely pay more per newspaper.

Of course sometimes Liftopia works and other times it does not. Sort of like just about everything in life! Sometimes the lift works and sometimes it stalls. Sometimes there is snow and other times there is rain. Sometimes the car works fine, and other times it breaks down. It is a silly argument you are making. Lliftopia and other means of buying a ticket other than at the window are as viable as they can be. I guess you could go to the window and find out your credit card does not work for some reason!

The data from a number of surveys clearly shows otherwise. So your statement is an opinion, not a fact, something you seem to confuse often. While we ALL give a rats ass about cost, it is not the cost of the ticket that people care about as much as it is the total cost - the cost the ticket, cost of a lesson, food, gear, lodging, travel...and time invested in getting to and from the mountain and level of enjoyment and concerns around getting injured and safety that people state as primary obstacles.

Very true that some people are more price sensitive than others or have a hard time afford skiing.That may mean that they might have find a cheaper activity to enjoy together. But I don't think that is likely necessary since they can go on Liftopia right now, Thursday evening, and buy tickets for this weekend at many resorts for at some great prices. There are HUNDREDS of resorts that sell season passes for a $200-$400 (less for kids, or even free). Not all 440 ski resorts charge $180 or even $100 a day to ski, or $950 for a season pass. To argue that skiing in 2019 is expensive is preposterous. Healthcare, perhaps. Housing, most likely. Education, certainly seems that way. Food, often, at least healthy food. Utility bills, yup. Lift ticket prices, not so much! Skiing is about the most discretionary spend I can think of, so harping the cost of something completely discretionary seems silly, even though some folks seem to think that they own the mountain or that it is their God-given right to ski for $5 a day.

Ski operators are not in this for philanthropic reasons. Even charging the prices you say many people feel are too high, many ski operators can barely keep the lights on. Most resorts actually need /should raise prices in order to remain in business and pay their employees a fair wage (not to mention investing in their lifts and snowmaking and lodges). This idea that you seem to put forth that ski operators are out to gauge people and are living large is ill informed. Maybe Vail makes money. Maybe Killington makes money. Maybe Lee Canyon makes money. But the overwhelming majority of the resorts across the US are barely operating in the black.

I don't know where I ever implied that all ski operators are out to gouge people and living large doing it. I only referenced earlier that in many corporate structures it happens. And some the factors within this thread topic can be seen as following that model. I think this very much what the topic itself is questioning. But never once did I say that included all ski operators nor did I imply they are all living large. So im not sure where you took that from my posts.

As for all else you say here. I understand most what your saying and I can agree with some of it like when referring to total cost as being a big factor. But this topic was also very much about the price of tickets and how locals and day trippers are being priced out even if not everywhere . Agree or not is what the topic referenced. Imo its not correct to use specials and especially those from 3rd parties nor anything but the actual price charged if we are going to talk about comparing cost of day tickets. The sale and 3rd party offers don't always work for all so imo they shouldn't be part of the equation. I'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree on that part with you

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I think the number of beginners who say, "Let's fly to Aspen and take lessons," is seriously in the minority! In the end, the mom and pop places will continue to be the introducers to the sport and only once the family/couple/individual reaches a certain level of interest, will they start to look at high end resorts. That is when the mega passes get interesting. I owned property in Big Bear yet when I was teaching my son and friends, we drove 20 miles down the mountain to Snow Valley because it was uber kid friendly. For many years, I only cared that my son had fun skiing and SV provided that experience better. Three years ago, when we taught his GF to ski as a never ever, I bought a 4 pack for SV (even though we had season passes at BBMR) because it was a more beginner friendly bump. There is plenty of room for everybody if they understand what exactly will draw visitors to their mountain.

 

[Goose]

I think the number of beginners who say, "Let's fly to Aspen and take lessons," is seriously in the minority! In the end, the mom and pop places will continue to be the introducers to the sport and only once the family/couple/individual reaches a certain level of interest, will they start to look at high end resorts. That is when the mega passes get interesting. I owned property in Big Bear yet when I was teaching my son and friends, we drove 20 miles down the mountain to Snow Valley because it was uber kid friendly. For many years, I only cared that my son had fun skiing and SV provided that experience better. Three years ago, when we taught his GF to ski as a never ever, I bought a 4 pack for SV (even though we had season passes at BBMR) because it was a more beginner friendly bump. There is plenty of room for everybody if they understand what exactly will draw visitors to their mountain.

Im curious (a tad off topic but somewhat related) just how does that work for the first time families in "ski country" like Colorado. I ask because im not familiar. If one lived in say denver or perhaps lived in some town near say aspen or anywhere in between and nearer the "high end" world class destination resorts. What are the options for them? Do those families have a far less expensive option nearby to learn and grow before having to decide on swallowing the higher cost of season passes or the high cost of daily at the destination resorts? Are there much smaller, private, and off the radar ski areas to be had for them or is there only the destination resorts and the expense that comes with them?

i ask because while things are still expensive in the east/northeast it is (relatively speaking) cheaper of course than the world class resorts out west. And so 'some' more first time families can a bit more easily get involved because of the lower cost. So how does that work out when living among and in the midst of nothing but the high end more expensive destination resorts? Is it a big problem? or is there (as mentioned) many off the radar options for them where things are much more financially workable and prhaps maybe much more comparable to out east?

 

[dbostedo]

There are a bunch of options in Colorado that aren't the "big name" (Vail or Alterra) resorts... take a look at this map : http://www.skicentral.com/colorado-map.html

 

[Big J]

Im curious (a tad off topic but somewhat related) just how does that work for the first time families in "ski country" like Colorado. I ask because im not familiar. If one lived in say denver or perhaps lived in some town near say aspen or anywhere in between and nearer the "high end" world class destination resorts. What are the options for them? Do those families have a far less expensive option nearby to learn and grow before having to decide on swallowing the higher cost of season passes or the high cost of daily at the destination resorts? Are there much smaller, private, and off the radar ski areas to be had for them or is there only the destination resorts and the expense that comes with them?

i ask because while things are still expensive in the east/northeast it is (relatively speaking) cheaper of course than the world class resorts out west. And so 'some' more first time families can a bit more easily get involved because of the lower cost. So how does that work out when living among and in the midst of nothing but the high end more expensive destination resorts? Is it a big problem? or is there (as mentioned) many off the radar options for them where things are much more financially workable and prhaps maybe much more comparable to out east?

I lived in Denver and Golden for over 10 years. There are not a whole lot of smaller ski areas in the area with the exception of Eldora west of Boulder and perhaps Loveland. What I now see is that the Epic Local pass is the deal of the century with access to Keystone. If I still lived in the area I would buy it in a heartbeat. The current Epic Keystone Plus Pass is $369 for adults.

 

[SShore]

Im curious (a tad off topic but somewhat related) just how does that work for the first time families in "ski country" like Colorado. I ask because im not familiar. If one lived in say denver or perhaps lived in some town near say aspen or anywhere in between and nearer the "high end" world class destination resorts. What are the options for them? Do those families have a far less expensive option nearby to learn and grow before having to decide on swallowing the higher cost of season passes or the high cost of daily at the destination resorts? Are there much smaller, private, and off the radar ski areas to be had for them or is there only the destination resorts and the expense that comes with them?

i ask because while things are still expensive in the east/northeast it is (relatively speaking) cheaper of course than the world class resorts out west. And so 'some' more first time families can a bit more easily get involved because of the lower cost. So how does that work out when living among and in the midst of nothing but the high end more expensive destination resorts? Is it a big problem? or is there (as mentioned) many off the radar options for them where things are much more financially workable and prhaps maybe much more comparable to out east?

Near Denver there is Granby Ranch, Echo Mountain and Eldora
Near Colorado Springs and Crested Butte there is Monarch
Near the Summit there is Ski Cooper
Near Aspen there is Sunlight
Near Durango (Purgatory) there is Hesperus

And that is just Colorado. Lot's of small family friendly places out there if you just look for them.

 

[Goose]

interesting and thanks for the answers. Thats good to know that locals and especially newbie families in ski country do have affordable options outside the more expensive glitz and glamour mega destination resorts. Of course from afar we dont seek them out or hear about them and so I was curious.

 

[Big J]

I lived in Denver and Golden for over 10 years. There are not a whole lot of smaller ski areas in the area with the exception of Eldora west of Boulder and perhaps Loveland. What I now see is that the Epic Local pass is the deal of the century with access to Keystone. If I still lived in the area I would buy it in a heartbeat. The current Epic Keystone Plus Pass is $369 for adults.

Echo Mountain has 600 verticle. Granby Ranch is 1000 verticle and was for sale in January of 2019. I skied Eldora many years ago and it was good.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

There are other advantages to skiing smaller bumps with kids. It is pretty safe to let them take a few runs “by themselves “ because it is pretty tough to get lost. Family friendly atmospheres means lodges are pretty tolerant of bringing your own lunch and even of leaving a crock pot plugged in, and the employees get to know you and your kids by name. When my 8 year old and friends took a “tree run” at SV, it meant they went about 300 feet and I could spot them the whole way.

 

[fatbob]

To argue that skiing in 2019 is expensive is preposterous. Healthcare, perhaps. Housing, most likely. Education, certainly seems that way. Food, often, at least healthy food. Utility bills, yup. Lift ticket prices, not so much!

Skiing is about the most discretionary spend I can think of, so harping about the cost of something completely discretionary seems silly, even though some folks seem to think that they own the mountain or that it is their God-given right to ski for $5 a day.

To argue that it's not expensive seems perverse to me, particularly when doing the arguing from a position of privilege. In the UK a family of 4 would be very lucky to get change from £5,000 for a week's skiing in Europe, including probably driving rather than flying to resorts at peak times. That compares to say £2,000 for a beach holiday. I suspect in the US that translates to upwards of $5k for a family for a long (holiday) weekend to a reasonable Tier 2 resort (thinking a Copper or a Northstar rather than the Aspens of this world) . Of course keen skiers know the workarounds to get the costs per day down if we need or want to, but those don't generally apply to the once per yearers. The sport remains in reach for those within driving distance in the Alps, it feels to me it is increasingly less so in the US.

Talk to a youngish general services worker (store clerk, hotel front desk, waiter) in a proximate but non ski town e.g. Reno, Carson, SLC or Glenwood. Chances are they'll have never skied (or at least not outside school programmes) despite it being within 30 mins.

 

[nunyabiz]

That's a poorly written article. In the third paragraph it states you can't look at the reduced cost the mega-passes provide in a vacuum, only to then operate in the vacuum that increased real estate prices around Stowe is directly correlated to the Vail acquisition.

Furthermore, the parts on single day tickets being too expensive would hold water if there weren't tons of non-Vail/Alterra places where window prices are a fraction of the cost. There is and always has been a financial barrier to entry for skiing, but $209 is nowhere near the starting point. I'm very new to skiing and in less than 10 minutes I found a place in the vicinity of Vail where the window price is $56 and what appears to be plenty of trails for someone new to skiing.

 

[Jerez]

Sorry for the drift...but do you think the high cost of resort day pass is a contributing factor for the increase in backcountry use, particularly by young folks?

My guess is families starting to ski are either

• the product of a parent or grandparent avid skier,
• Live in relatively easy proximity to a local hill,
• Or have means

The first two are going to figure out how not to pay day prices and the third will come in for a ski week or the like, and even they will buy multi day tickets or lodging and ticket deals.

For example, my family from Argentina met me (Ikon passholder) at Snowbird for 10 days of skiing. They rented a small unit at the base, cooked their own meals and got lift tickets and rental discounts with the lodging. Was it luxurious? No. But they paid just about what I did in the end. Never used my friends and family because it was cheaper for them the other way.

Skiing is a bit like golf in that you need a major facility to support what you do, right? Not a golfer, but curious if golf courses do passes or collective passes also.

Last thought is that if this adversely affects these places they will start to drop off like A-basin did.

 

[Goose]

Sorry for the drift...but do you think the high cost of resort day pass is a contributing factor for the increase in backcountry use, particularly by young folks?

My guess is families starting to ski are either

• the product of a parent or grandparent avid skier,
• Live in relatively easy proximity to a local hill,
• Or have means

The first two are going to figure out how not to pay day prices and the third will come in for a ski week or the like, and even they will buy multi day tickets or lodging and ticket deals.

For example, my family from Argentina met me (Ikon passholder) at Snowbird for 10 days of skiing. They rented a small unit at the base, cooked their own meals and got lift tickets and rental discounts with the lodging. Was it luxurious? No. But they paid just about what I did in the end. Never used my friends and family because it was cheaper for them the other way.

Skiing is a bit like golf in that you need a major facility to support what you do, right? Not a golfer, but curious if golf courses do passes or collective passes also.

Last thought is that if this adversely affects these places they will start to drop off like A-basin did.

Plenty golf courses have season/yearly greens fees deals. And im not talking the higher cost of country clubs because thats no bargain at all but just courses that charge for season greensfees at a discount. They do exist.

 

[Snowflake2420]

Loveland also has the 3 class pass.

I agree this article at times confuses correlation and causation, however, it's nice to see a piece that is more than Vuck Fail.

I've utilized the multi mountain passes ever since I moved here a few years ago, but am thinking that may change in 19-20. Epic Local became much less appealing without A Basin. As Denver grows and grows I'm becoming less patient for crowds and the rush for any fresh snow. Not that there isn't any to find if you look, but the whole thing can be stressful. I'm much more willing to tour on a powder day than I was in the past.

As others have pointed out there is a lot more going on than just these passes. The West is growing, people are more mobile, forecasts are more accurate, this year is an excellent snow year, with consolidation comes captive customers. While there is a pass war that may increase the potential for people to wring value from a pass, I generally don't like the way it's going, hoping come spring my favorite independent mountain doesn't get bought or aligns with one pass or another.

 

[Monique]

What I wish is that local bumps were using the high day ticket prices (for Vail etc.) as a marketing tool to promote their mountains. Everybody's whining but it seems like a perfect opportunity to market to entry level consumers if you are a small local mountain.

There's been some stuff like that in Colorado, or at least, stuff-adjacent. I swear I've seen "Don't drive I-70" type ads for Eldora, and there have definitely been ads specifically jabbing at Epic. Seems to me though that the ads have focused on crowds and drive times, which probably suggests locals' priorities - those factors probably matter more than the price difference.

Skiing is about the most discretionary spend I can think of, so harping about the cost of something completely discretionary seems silly, even though some folks seem to think that they own the mountain or that it is their God-given right to ski for $5 a day.

Indeed. We act like skiing is a religion or a fundamental identity, and largely ignore the enormous investment required to fuel our hobby. I can snowshoe, cross country ski, hike, and mountain bike without millions of dollars of equipment, not to mention the resources and manpower required to run it. Arguably, running the lift costs essentially the same no matter how many skiers are riding it. We bitch about the crowds at mega resorts while turning up our noses at smaller places that have fewer crowds and much thinner profit margins (if any). Fact is - people pony up because they WANT the benefits the more expensive resorts provide. And we exist within a bubble of fellow skiers who have season passes, so our entire outlook is skewed - we look at the ticket window prices of the huge conglomerates and think that this is what a family needs to pay to check out skiing. My first ski day ever was at Ski Liberty. It hooked me and fueled a life long passion. And the current rate for an 8 hour "flex" ticket is $67.

Glen Plake's down home tour is meant to remind us of this, is it not?

I think the number of beginners who say, "Let's fly to Aspen and take lessons," is seriously in the minority!

And the people who do that are NOT hurting for cash!

Family friendly atmospheres means lodges are pretty tolerant of bringing your own lunch

I just gotta pipe up here yet again and say that you can brown bag at any of the Breck cafeterias. (No toasters, microwaves, or plugs, though.)

Sorry for the drift...but do you think the high cost of resort day pass is a contributing factor for the increase in backcountry use, particularly by young folks?

I've wondered this. But it does seem like a very different experience to me. Lift-serviced skiing is convenient and all about the downhill. Backcountry is much more physically demanding and much more about the journey. And, of course, requires a lot more caution and willingness to come back another day.

 

[LKLA]

That's a poorly written article. In the third paragraph it states you can't look at the reduced cost the mega-passes provide in a vacuum, only to then operate in the vacuum that increased real estate prices around Stowe is directly correlated to the Vail acquisition.

Furthermore, the parts on single day tickets being too expensive would hold water if there weren't tons of non-Vail/Alterra places where window prices are a fraction of the cost. There is and always has been a financial barrier to entry for skiing, but $209 is nowhere near the starting point. I'm very new to skiing and in less than 10 minutes I found a place in the vicinity of Vail where the window price is $56 and what appears to be plenty of trails for someone new to skiing.

I would say 90% of ski related articles are written by travel or lifestyle reporters who know little if anything about the industry and what happens behind the scenes. They are not even familiar with "related" industries such as the hospitality industry, including the reporter who wrote this article (who I have spoken with before).
Smart man I think a lot of people who view lift tickets as being too expensive largely focus on window prices or on the most "exclusive" resorts, even though that is not representative of the entire picture/reality. It would be like saying golf is expensive based on playing at Pebble Beach or National or Bel-Air. You can spend $500 a round at one of those places. Hire a caddie, which they often require, have some lunch, and you could be $750 poorer, in 4 hours! Or, you can play at one of the many fabulous public courses - or less exclusive private clubs - and pay $50 a round (or less) . You can get a caddie and have lunch and likely not pay much more than $150. You can join a club like Liberty National in NJ for $500,000, or you can join a club like Knickerbocker, also in NJ, for ~$25,000. Small difference Similar for many other activities (sailing, polo, horse back riding, racing...).

Skier visits have been flat for about 30 years - much before the focus on window prices (while season pass prices were double or triple what they are today - for single mountain access).

 

[dbostedo]

...My first ski day ever was at Ski Liberty...

A little thread drift from a Liberty local... I also buy an Advantage Card each season for $80 that gives me 40% off Liberty, Whitetail, and Roundtop. So it pays for itself within 3 or 4 visits, depending on which days you go (weekdays are cheaper than weekends). But those resorts were bought by Peak resorts this season, and there will be no advantage card next year - but the Peak Pass season pass includes all the Peak Resorts in NY and New England too. Personally, for me, I won't be getting a local season pass, so I'll end up paying a bit more next year... or skiing Massanutten and WV places more.

It's not a mega-pass, but it is conglomeration of a sort, and I wonder what effect the Peak Pass will have on local resorts...

 

[jack97]

It's not a mega-pass, but it is conglomeration of a sort, and I wonder what effect the Peak Pass will have on local resorts...

I wonder that myself in the NE area. But I also think what would have happen if Peak Resorts did not buy the areas they did. Attitash and Wildcat were facing infrastructure issues and needed money to fix them. Wildcat was only a place you would ski after a storm or in the spring. Attitash has improved the snow making but now has the triple lift problem. I don't ski enough of Mount Snow and Hunter to hear the inside dirt but I suspect the same.

It takes both sides to agree to be bought.